In the collective white Western mindset, an extensive set of stereotypes about Asian women continues to fester. Many of these stereotypes stew most feverishly in the minds of certain white men -- quite a few of them, apparently -- who obsess about Asian women in sexual terms. There is of course a lengthy historical context for this racial fetish, as well as a term for what amounts to a common white male illness -- "Yellow Fever" (I also used to hear the men afflicted with it referred to as "rice kings," but I don't hear that term anymore; has it fallen out of use?).
The Online Era has served to agitate Yellow Fever, especially in the proliferation of "Asian Bride" sites (which don't seem to fully merit anti-racist and feminist disapproval) and "Asian Porn" sites (which are, I think, much more difficult to defend). The latest mutation seems to be Asian-women iPhone apps.
What would you do if you were sitting, say, in a subway or a classroom, and a man next to you started blowing (feverishly, as it were) into his iPhone, and it turned out that he's trying to blow aside the skirt of a tiny, simulated Japanese woman?
As for me, I would move away, fast, but not before telling the hyperventilator that he's acting like a racist weirdo. Sadly enough, there actually is such an app -- it's called "Puff!" -- and it's one of many that invite iPhone users to ogle, caress, drool over, and yes, even blow on, images of Asian women.
As Iris Chung recently wrote for the NY Daily News, "this app-etite is sickening." By solidifying the reductive, sexualized conceptions of Asian women that already exist in the collective white psyche, these pervy Asian-women apps perpetuate demeaning and ultimately dehumanizing stereotypes. I also believe that such interactive images can encourage abuse that specifically targets Asian women (and so far, I have yet to hear a convincing argument that such simulation instead offers some sort of harmless release, for aggression that would otherwise target women).
Chung's opinion piece on these apps is worth quoting at length:
I was walking near the Port Authority Bus Terminal recently when a balding guy smoking a joint yells "Sexy Asian girl!" I give him a dirty look; he smiles.
As a 26-year-old Korean-American woman, I am wary of men whose attraction to Asian women leads to exaggerated gestures. I still remember Sam, the "Asiaphile" in my freshman dorm who majored in East Asian studies, practiced t'ai chi and presented handmade origami paper cranes to his love interests. Then there was Matt, whom I met at a wedding. When he mentioned that he was "really into Asian girls," I wasn't sure what he meant. I wondered if he had some perverse "Oriental" fantasy to satisfy. When I showed no interest, Matt moved on to Grace, the only other Asian girl in a reception of 150.
Asian women are everywhere. We rank No. 11 on the blog "Stuff White People Like" and star in a host of iPhone apps: "Cute Asian Girls" promised; "If you have yellow fever, this app is the cure!" "Asian Boobs," which heralds our modest-sized racks, was a top seller for the App Store in October.
Now, we're playing peek-a-boo in "Puff!" In this app, the user selects a photo from a scrolling selection of Japanese women, then blows into the iPhone microphone to lift the woman's skirt and reveal her undergarments. The more vigorously the user blows and rubs the screen, the higher the skirt flies. Shyly attempting to cover herself, the woman yelps delightedly, wearing an inviting smile. "If the girls don't react, try changing breath length," instructions advise. "Winning a special bonus is all up to you!"
I'm infuriated at the thought of sitting next to some pervert on the subway furiously blowing and touching a woman who giggles adorably in response. But what I hate most about this app is that it feeds into an old and tired stereotype. The image of the voiceless, passive Asian woman is a common form of racism in visual media. She's the "Puff!" woman - cutesy and obedient, she'd never kick a creep to the curb. She's not too different from that saccharine Hello Kitty, the infantilized mail-order bride who promises to "love you long time" or the hypersexualized character in anime porn.
Passing off sexual stereotypes that reduce women as objects of so-called harmless fetishes is socially irresponsible. And it's not harmless. By fostering a culture of behavior that denigrates one group of women, all women are denigrated. And that is unacceptable . . . .
You can read the rest of Iris Chung's piece here.
Angry Asian Man has also been tracking this obnoxious app trend in a series of posts:
"yellow fever in the iphone age"
"another dumbass iphone app: meet a chinese girl"
"pervy iphone upskirt app"
"yellow fever for your pocket"
"a geisha for your pocket"
Does the Asian fetish seem to be targeted toward Asian women who fit a certain "type"? In my experience, you're more likely to find White guys salivating over "Geisha Girl #9572" than Margaret Cho. Then again, I've met more Asian women (in the US and abroad, particularly China) who make me scratch my head at that "submissive Asian woman" stereotype than those who fit it.
ReplyDeleteDo Asian women feel pressured to fit into that stereotype (fantasy?)?
When you clearly don't fit that mold (appearance, personality, life experience, etc), what has been your general experience when confronted with somebody's "Asian fetish"?
Does the "Asian fetish" come off as creepy?
I just want to set aside the obvious racisism and concentrate on how effing sexist and objectifying it is that such apps exist. I also want to say I despise pornography for these very reasons. It gives perverts a green light to view every woman through their little prurient lense. Just sick, wrong, sexist, racist.
ReplyDeleteall the while, yes, these apps are sexist. But you can't really "set aside" the racism. They are intertwined.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious to hear if this applies in similar or different ways to South Asian women.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone here ever read "The Asian Mystique"? It covered this subject thoroughly, not only the historical origins, from Pierre Loti to Puccini, from WWII to Full Metal Jacket, but also its modern manifestations, like those websites or sex tourism in Thailand and the Philippines. I recommend it.
ReplyDeleteThat just makes me sick. My initial reaction to the iPhone app comments was to think, I wonder if those apps featured white women instead of East Asian women, if men would feel as comfortable using them in public places? I.e., its ok and not as morally reprehensible to them to objectify East Asian women that way because they are "less human" than white women?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I second science girl. I have my own observations, being related by marriage to South Asian women, but I would rather hear from some South Asian women than try to hypothesize on the types of race/gender intersecting discrimination they face.
This shit is largely sexist and racist as hell. I remember when I saw the app I was like did they ever think twice about saleing this as an app? Did they ever think that this is unacceptable and inappropriate? or did they internalize the "subservient Asian woman" stereotype and didn't think that it was a big deal because they feel Asian women are not going to say anything?
ReplyDelete@RCVBard: The men I've met seem to ASSume that I fit the profile FIRST - in their eyes, it seemed like the default was submissive Asian women. Then they lose interest when I act in some way which breaks the fantasy for them. But, I've found a lot of them seem to like a "spicy-feisty" dragon-lady - as long as I am still obedient to THEM of course. Sassy, but not too much for them to handle.
ReplyDeleteI do sometimes feel a subtle pressure to fit it because I feel like I get better treatment when I'm demure, so the rewards of that make me want to fulfill the stereotype. You can almost visibly see both men AND women stiffen up when I do something that "gives" me away.
It absolutely comes off as creepy. But mostly, creepiest with white guys. Not that they don't exist, but I've yet to meet any other ethnicity of men which fetishizes over Asian women as much as white men do. It's such a pain in the ass because except for the little darling who had a crush on me when I was in elementary school, I always have my suspicions about white guys who are interested in me.
"I was walking near the Port Authority Bus Terminal recently when a balding guy smoking a joint yells 'Sexy Asian girl!' I give him a dirty look; he smiles."
ReplyDeleteI had almost the same exact experience at PABT...except the guy yelled "hey China!" which was rather odd.
I personally have had many run-ins with Asian fetishits (I liked this mistype so I'm keeping it here :P) -- starting from when I was like 16. White guys, Black guys, and Latin guys all hit on me while going "where are you from?" or "I love Asian women! You're all so hot". I'm glad I'm with my boyfriend now, because being with him keeps all those comments away...and yet, when I'm out walking around by myself I inevitably seem to attract those types of comments.
Women of all different ethnicities are objectified, and WOC especially are hit with a double whammy of sexism and racism. Asian women are seen as submissive, exotic dolls, Latinas seem to always be described as "spicy", Black women are seen as big-bootied and wild. I'm not entirely sure if men should be blamed; it seems like the ones spreading these awful ideas are porn industries and mainstream media.
"I'm not entirely sure if men should be blamed; it seems like the ones spreading these awful ideas are porn industries and mainstream media."
ReplyDeleteI must say that I disagree. The porn industries and mainstream media are reinforcing stereotypes that already existed. I think that racism has always mixed 'interestingly' with sexism to create this fetish for 'foreign' women.
Something interesting that I've seen is that many white American women seem to think that European men are "more romantic". I don't know what they mean by this since further explanation is never given, but there's always something about how European men seem to "love women" more and that American men "just aren't passionate". I'm certain that this must extend to race as well. Some black men have reported that they are more attractive to women if they start 'speaking correctly'. I'm certain we're all familiar with the 'Latin Lover' stereotype. Strangely enough, I haven't seen Asian men be fetishized this way (though a black girl at school told me that she loved 'Asians').
I think it's pretty gross overall. I haven't had any personal experiences with anything like this.
I do sometimes feel a subtle pressure to fit it because I feel like I get better treatment when I'm demure, so the rewards of that make me want to fulfill the stereotype. You can almost visibly see both men AND women stiffen up when I do something that "gives" me away.
ReplyDeleteI'm feeling you here.
Does this arise in a specific context, or is it a more generalized phenomenon? Like, do people expect the "geisha girl" act (even if you're neither subservient nor Japanese) only in a romantic situation, or is it something people expect right off the bat? And is that "submissive Asian" expectation different when inflicted by White women vs. White men?
Women of all different ethnicities are objectified, and WOC especially are hit with a double whammy of sexism and racism.
ReplyDeleteParticularly when there's this weird sense of the guy having a 'type' that isn't particular about who the woman is, just that she has the physical characteristics that turn him on. What kind of movies does she like to watch, what are her dreams and ambitions, is she introverted or extroverted, how does she take her coffee--who cares? She's [insert fetishized selection here]! Isn't that cool?
I think the "Asian Fever" hits Chinese/Japanese/maybe Korean women. I don't think I've ever seen it applied to Indian or Southeast Asians.
ReplyDeleteAm I wrong in this assertion?
Rice kings is a derogatory term for gay men that like gay Asian men only.
Rice kings is a derogatory term for gay men that like gay Asian men only.
ReplyDeleteSounds like "rice queen" to me.
I had a friend who had one of these apps on his phone. I told him it was sexist and racist as hell. His response? "It's not racist..." followed by a rant about why, exactly, it wasn't racist (I will spare you, but I'm sure you can imagine the gist). Not a word about the sexism. Which is even more racist.
ReplyDelete@RVCBard, while I can't answer most of your questions, I have observed something similar: the "Asian fetish" is only a fetish for a very particular (stereo)type of East Asian woman. And, although this is just my opinion, I think *any* type of fetish that encourages one to conceive of another person as an object, and furthermore as property, based on categories of historical discrimination is inherently creepy.
Like, do people expect the "geisha girl" act (even if you're neither subservient nor Japanese)
ReplyDeleteThis raises another good question. Lots of white people (maybe even most people?) think that Asian culture is like a huge block. China = Japan = Korea. In addition, The 'big three' countries are the only ones that matter.
I've noticed that a lot of Asian people that come from more 'obscure' countries (Laos, Thailand, etc) tend to be confused for Chinese or Japanese people. This fits into the whole "Asians are a homogenous group" thing, too.
I would like to ask if any Asian women have been fetishized just for being Asian, or if it's been taken a step further and become just for being [x nationality here]. In the gaming community, for example, there are lots of white men that have fetishes for Japanese women specifically (and they play up old stereotypes). If you've been mistaken for another nationality, has this caused you to feel bad?
(I know this can be applied to lots of groups, i.e. Africans, Hispanic/Latinos, Native Americans, etc. I asked about Asians because it was the topic at hand, but there's nothing stopping people from commenting on their own experiences with this nationalized fetishizing. I have my own experiences with this, but I would like to wait a while before sharing).
Gross.
ReplyDeleteAnother example of dehumanizing POCs - WPs are not thinking of these women as real people. It is spot-on that there would not be a white-girl version - or if there was it would be immediately crushed, outlawed or something.
I went through a phase when I was frequenting the the "gender and sexuality" section of Yahoo!Answers, and it was not uncommon there to read "questions" or "answers" contrasting Asian women to American women. The gist being that American women have been ruined, Western culture and feminism making them conceited and agressive, while Asian women are ideally feminine and submissive, and it's no wonder that so many white men prefer Asian women.
ReplyDeleteJust a glimpse into the minds of these guys...
I work in an upscale clothing store in Vancouver, BC, and one of my workmates is a lady from Singapore. A few days ago this trashy White couple from Oregon (trashy, but rich, dressed in labels from head to toe), came in and started browsing the shelves. The woman was nice, but the guy was like a sitcom White American, with no filter between his brain and his mouth.
ReplyDeleteFirst he asks me about my nationality, then asks if I "heard" of Transylvania (which is like me asking him if he heard of Colorado), and if we worship Nadia Comaneci. And he was very happy to hear that she married a good ole American guy.
After that, he moves on to my workmate, and jokingly starts to complain about his wife, that she's too expensive to keep, and that she should get himself "one of those Chinese girls, because they don't ask for much". I saw my workmate turn a bit red, and then she told him that nowadays Chinese girls have standards and don't settle for just about anything :)). But he was too dumb to get the sarcasm.
He left with his wife, with the same bloated, self-sufficient attitude with which he came in, probably congratulating himself for his ability to relate to the peasants. Not before asking my workmate if she was gonna make Dim Sum for New Year's Eve.
And I thought that the old guy who came in two weeks ago, asking for "a cardigan for an Oriental woman", was bad!
"In the gaming community, for example, there are plenty of white men who have fetishes for Japanese women specifically (and they play up old stereotypes)"
ReplyDeleteThis is probably because the majority of games (particularly RPGS) come from Japan, and most of those games contain those stereotypes themselves in some form...
@ Willow:
ReplyDelete"I have observed something similar: the "Asian fetish" is only a fetish for a very particular (stereo)type of East Asian woman."
Could that stereotype be called an "ideal woman"? It does seem to embody the misogynist ideal of what a woman should be - sexually available, fawning, silent, effortlessly attractive...
I have the impression that this particular incarnation of the exoticized Asian woman is partly the result of backlash against feminism. "You don't want to be subservient anymore? fine, we'll just get our women somewhere else." So, to white guys, exoticized Asian women go from being merely fuckable to being relationship-worthy. The great thing is that it doesn't matter how many times these guys encounter Asian women who contradict the stereotype - they can always blame it on them being Americanized. There's still a far-away continent full of ideally feminine women that they can fantasize about.
@ Holly Steel
"I've noticed that a lot of Asian people that come from more 'obscure' countries (Laos, Thailand, etc) tend to be confused for Chinese or Japanese people."
My fiance has a term for that:(In a Texan accent:) "Are you Chinese or Japanese?"-syndrome. Taken from the episode of King of the Hill where a Loatian family moves in next door.
There's still a far-away continent full of ideally feminine women that they can fantasize about.
ReplyDeleteUntil they go there and realize a lot of Asian women ain't playing that shit.
But this does raise another question. In response to the amateur diagnosis post, Willow said:
The impression I have gotten*, not just from swpd but race discussions elsewhere as well, is that when Black women in particular slip into a "stereotype", it is often, though not always, a conscious choice, and in many cases a response to the actions of the other people.
Do you find the same to be true of Asian women, particularly with regards to interactions with White men?
[tsg, I deleted it just before seeing your comment. I agree -- out of place. ~macon]
ReplyDelete[Until corrected, I'm gonna go with East Asian women, as I've never seen this fetish applied to other Asian women. And the apps and stuff always feature the same type of stereotypically EA woman— the now-classic "Anime Stripper": slim and pale, with single-fold eyelids, long, straight, jet-black hair with bangs... and huge boobs.]
ReplyDeleteOkay, so, this particular brand of fetishization we're discussing.
Isn't it (for the purposes of SWPD) only white men doing this fetishizing?
I'm not Asian (and I'm about to conjecture all over the place, so please correct me!), but from what I've seen:
There's a WP-created stereotype of "submissive" for EA in general. It can be applied to any EA (submissive EA men are slight wimpy nerds, submissive EA women are giggling petite geisha; both are inconsequential). And any WP might to subscribe to it. But then there's this fetish we're discussing, which is a particular application of the submissive trope that is specifically for men, and is applied to EA women only (?).
For EA women specifically, there appear to be two distinct (but related?) tropes: the Submissive Geisha, and what I'll call the "Screaming Marketwoman." Only #1 turns into this fetish. I imagine #1 appeals to WM because submissive + woman = hyperfeminine, which makes them feel powerful, which they fetishize. I can't see what WW would get out of the fetish. I'd expect WW would highly resent this type of (stereotypical) EA woman, as femininity is supposed to be their exclusive turf. So they might believe it, which gives them a reason to look down on such a woman. They might (in their own insecure minds) experience that as pity? If anything, I think WW have a hate fetish for EA women. The stereotype I see WW cherishing is #2: the harsh, browbeating, emasculating, often-depicted-as-old/unattractive, decidedly unfeminine Marketwoman. I assume perpetuating it makes them feel superior (ie: feminine) in comparison.
Interestingly, I see that #2 has recently (?) been expanded to apply to South EA women as well, in the form of the newer "Nail Lady" stereotype. Pre-emptive strike?
@ karinova:
ReplyDeleteYou nailed the frequent WW response to the Submissive Geisha stereotype--condensension and sometimes resentment masquerading as pity. (Honestly, I am not familiar with the Screaming Marketwoman stereotype so no observations to contribute there.)
I think that WW who fetishize Asian-ness tend to remove people from the picture altogether--the "Asian culture" fetish, I guess you might call it.
The porn industry reduces women to objects with 2 hands and 3 holes. The apps make Asian-women literally become toys for men to play with. So I ask, what exactly is going through the minds of these "men"? And how dangerous is this application of stereotypes in the real world?
ReplyDelete@Ginsu Shark
I would be careful about saying Asian game developers perpetrate stereotypes of Asians in their games unless you've played them all. In my personal opinion, and I LOVE RPG's from Japan (but that doesn't make me an expert) franchises like Final Fantasy and Enchanted Arms may have themes that parallel the culture of the developers, but I think WE as consumers FIND the stereotypes in them.
@RVCBard
My interpretation of the Geisha Girl Stereotype is not only that they are submissive but mostly that they are promiscuous and loose and I think that is the leading thought for someone who fetishizes Asian women
@ Sonic & The Takeout Wench.
Thank you for sharing. My partner has shared similar stories with me. I think it was tough for her because she was the only one that appeared to be Asian in the small town she grew up in so the pressure for her to fit the stereotype was exaggerated because she got it from everyone, especially her friends. She also questioned the motive of her previous white boyfriends.
One more thought then I'm done. Since there is a huge gender component to this post (I think it's safe to say that this applies mostly to white men although props to karinova for getting white women involved), I think the flip side of this is "I would never date an Asian man!" but I'm not sure that's as much as a white thing as an everyone thing
Marissa said: There's still a far-away continent full of ideally feminine women that they can fantasize about.
ReplyDeleteRVCBard said: Until they go there and realize a lot of Asian women ain't playing that shit.
Oh, oh, oh, I really wouldn’t be so sure about that. I’ve been in Indonesia the past few months and there are plenty of women playing that shit to different degrees. And boy oh boy does it get to the white man’s head. Bloated heads. To the point of exploding. Instant celebrity status for the white guy (and women, but more the guys) here, baby. Oh yeah. (NB. I’m just trying to be funny with the word ‘baby’.) The vast imbalance in financial status plays a huge role in it too. As one white guy put it (paraphrase), It’s overwhelming and you get lost in it. And I have seen some of my language students go to Asia feeling insecure and coming back walking the fine line of ‘being confident’ and having their ‘egos bloated’. The imbalance between the number of ‘white man & Asian woman’ and ‘Asian man & white woman’ is staggering. All of this put together has made me at certain times seriously consider striking white guys as group off my list of potential partner lest I become some sort of statistic – and besides, given the pervasiveness of the white guy-Asian woman power dynamics in society, I often wonder if it actually is possible to be in a relationship with a white guy and not have such stuff impact both of our psyches in some way. Well, I suppose that’s sort of like asking for a guy who has no tinge of sexism in his heart or any person who has absolutely no prejudices whatsoever – quite impossible huh?
Does this arise in a specific context, or is it a more generalized phenomenon? Like, do people expect the "geisha girl" act (even if you're neither subservient nor Japanese) only in a romantic situation, or is it something people expect right off the bat? And is that "submissive Asian" expectation different when inflicted by White women vs. White men?
For me it’s a general phenomenon. When I’m with people who don’t stereotype me (e.g. other Asians or Westerners who are used to Asians, e.g. those who grew up with Asians), then I feel comfortable being the vocal, opinionated, talkative me. And I forget that I’m Asian, or rather, am not conscious of it coz I’m just ‘me’ at that moment. But otherwise, I turn into a quiet, docile ‘Asian girl’ and feel conscious of being ‘Asian’. Elsewhere I wrote that it’s like having a straightjacket put on you. You want to break out of that mold, but it’s seriously difficult. I remember one time we were doing these personality tests for fun with my white female friends. One of them, who later confessed that I was her first Asian friend, kept wanting to answer the questions for me, and she kept choosing things that fit the quiet, docile, submissive stereotype. Meanwhile, I was trying to choose the opposite things to more accurately describe how I am when I’m with my other friends. I can see why she would choose them though, because that’s how I am when I’m in that group – playing the stereotype involuntarily.
Carmen van Kerchove at Racialicious says something similar:
I’m not particularly meek, yet at almost every job I’ve held, people have thought of me as a shy and quiet Asian girl. Because of that, I’ve always had to project an exaggerated version of my personality, just to be perceived as normal.
The porn industry reduces women to objects with 2 hands and 3 holes.
ReplyDeleteJesus, Izumi.
Definitely not Asian, but having lived in Asia the majority of my life, I can definitely say I've seen the white male fetishizing of Asian women. A LOT. I think some of it comes from the (obviously racist and fallacious) idea that all Asian women look the same, and therefore when they see an Asian women, she's "hot" no matter how attractive or unattractive she really is.
Okay, so I live in Ghana, and I asked a white male friend of mine if he likes Ghanaian girls. And I was wondering because foreign white guys in China were ALL ABOUT trying to find a Chinese girlfriend. His response:
"That's different." I said "why?" And he said "Cuz they're Asian and they're hot!!"
I wanted to vomit. Then I told him that I don't see that at all. As in, there's nothing particularly hot about Asian women that's hotter than African women. Then he and another person (white woman) went on to try to explain to me what Asian women are like. People who have NEVER BEEN TO ASIA. EXPLAINING TO ME WHAT ASIAN PEOPLE ARE LIKE. Even though
a) Uh, I spent most of my life there in Asia, and Asia also isn't a country so obviously Asians run the gamut in terms of appearance.
b) They were basically just spewing stereotypes.
They also talked a bunch of bullshit about Asian people all being short WHEN THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN TO ASIA. I tried to explain to them that really wasn't the case, especially in China which is so large that the different geographic regions tend to have people with different facial and body features...That entire conversation was a fail.
The iPhone apps are also a total fail, and I remember a train wreck of a discussion on Racialicious about them. Sometimes having a discussion seems totally futile when people already have their "truths" that they are unwilling to change, despite evidence staring them in the face and people rationally explaining how racist and sexist their ideas are.
Intersectionality of racism and sexism - there's an app for that. -_-
ReplyDeleteThese types of apps and such seem to follow a trend of paler (and of course thinner, but everyone and their mother has to be thin in the American culture to be "hawt") Asian women. I don't see too many things where dark skinned Asians (like Filipino) are fetishized in the same manner and rate that Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese women are. Is there any chance this trend may have also come about from war times? Since for example America has been at war with Korean and Vietnam and Japan (I can't recall a war with China but I haven't done a history class in 4 years and was never very good at retaining information from them) and those seem to often be the types of Asian women that are fetishized more. But I am really bad at this history thing, lol, so I dunno. Was just something that popped in my head so I thought I might throw it out there. Though I do think the skin tone has much more to do with it, much like how lighter PoC are valued more over darker PoC. I imagine the lighter skin thing applies to all PoC, at least in America.
that’s how I am when I’m in that group – playing the stereotype involuntarily.
ReplyDeleteDo you (and other Asian women) experience any consequences for not (consciously or no) playing into that stereotype?
Seems to me that White males fetishize Asian women because it permits them the delusion that they are all (at least potentially) the colonial despoiler "Pinkertons" to the stereotype "Madame Butterfly."
ReplyDelete>Do you (and other Asian women) experience any consequences for not (consciously or no) playing into that stereotype?
ReplyDeleteGood question. I'm not sure. So far I've found it difficult not to succumb to it. Once or twice I've tried, and it'll surprise my friends. On one occasion it looked like my friend thought I was 'cute' for trying to be not so docile/quiet. I felt embarrassed and stopped immediately. On other occasions, I think they think, 'She's changed', when what has actually happened is I'm trying to be my normal me. And I hate having them think that I've 'changed' coz I haven't. It almost feels as though they are silently commending me for having changed. It's an annoying feeling. Note that this is only based on my own limited experience.
Interesting topic and interesting comments. One thing I've noticed though, we've heard alot about Asian women, how they're percieved and how they feel about it, but there is very little said here about asian men. Which seems to play into the stereotype of Asian men being insignificant and unworthy of mention.
ReplyDelete[false1, I'm redacting the rest of your comment, which goes on in this derailing vein. Yes, thank you, more posts here on discrimination faced by Asian men would be a good thing, but your list of questions in that regard would invite a lot of distraction from the topic at hand here, discrimination faced by Asian women. ~ macon]
PS -- I noticed that a link provided by fromthetropics above, to a post by Carmen Van Kerckhove, isn't working, so here it is again.
I'm surprised anyone would say it only applies to East Asian women, because haven't you heard of Miss Saigon? Sex tours in Thailand?
ReplyDeleteI don't think women of all different Asian ethnicities experience it in the exact same way, but "do you taste like sushi?" and "teach me some of that kama sutra" come from the same place.
my wife is southeast asian (i'm east asian), and based off her experiences and plenty of friends and such, i don't think any of these folks who would say and act in disgusting ways to an east asian woman take the time to differentiate.
@RVCBard: (I apologize for misspelling your name in my 1st post!)
ReplyDeleteI think it's definitely more generalized - It happens to me in a lot of places: the gym, buses, supermarkets.
I've noticed when I'm quiet (for whatever reason) people are more kind and chatty to me, trying to "draw" me out and acting like they get the prize if they can wheedle some sort of response. But if I break character (by laughing "too" loudly rather than shyly giggling, for example), then they usually lose interest, their tone of voice chills, body language tells me they feel "betrayed".
As to the difference between the expectations of men and women:
It feels to me like there are (mostly older) white women who like demure-me because I fit the "feminine ideal" - I'm quite, demure, speak only when spoken to, and want only to please my man. I think that speaks to them - how they grew up seeing womnahood. It's different than the "hoydens" they see now. But there is also another group of women. I wrote about that in my response to karinova below.
But men obviously want something very different. I get the impression that when they speak to me, they feel I should be grateful for their attention, no matter how disgusting or hideous they're behaving. I feel like if I were a white woman with the same level of attractiveness, a lot of men would be a little bit nervous about talking to me, doubt themselves. But because I am Asian - it's expected that I will enjoy it if a "big, strong" white man deems me worthy. Guys have 2 responses when I don't fall into line: 1) run away 2) get angry
I also disagree with those who believe it's only East Asians who are fetishized. Many of these fetishizing white males cannot tell the difference between SouthE. and East Asian. They just see "ASIAN LAY" and forge ahead. If an Asian woman looks "feminine" enough (thin, with long black hair, and clear, but not necessarily pale, skin) that seems to be "good enough".
@ karinova: I do sometimes get the feeling that some women are more icy to me because they look down on me. They are opposite the women I mentioned in my response to RVCBard: they like it better when I get "sassy" and prove I'm a "real" American with an opinion - just like they are. Women seem to like me better when they can relate to me - you know, when they see that, GEE, I am a REAL human! Men just seem to want me to fall on their penises.
As an (East) Asian woman, I can say that I have been thoroughly fetishized (that sounds like a surgery or something) once in my life. I had developed feelings for a white friend and he had developed feelings for me and after exploring the stages of a heady crush together, I began to realize that yeah, he might have liked me for me, but a large part of why he even started spending time with me was because he liked the "ways of my people". Yeah, no joke. His current girlfriend is indeed a Chinese girl who might not know what she's gotten herself into.
ReplyDeleteBut when it comes to the general male population, I find that the random cat calls and lewd comments that I get often DO revolve around my Asian-ness. But when I'm with white female friends, I tend to disappear completely. This is not to say that I want to be found attractive by every. single. man. I cross paths with, nor do I want to be the object of lewd comments, as it really, really sucks, but it seems (at least in my case) that my attractiveness is, more often than not, thoroughly based upon my Asian-ness, rather than JUST being a female.
But even outside of a sphere of attraction and desire, when I'm with white friends, I tend to disappear completely. For example, if a white friend and I walk into a shop together and we approach a white salesperson, he/she will always talk to and make eye contact with my white friend (only), even though I'm the one who has taken the lead on the conversation and am still the one who continues to ask questions. I realize that this is a little bit off the point of the post, but what I'm trying to demonstrate is the fact that, as an Asian woman, I largely do not exist, and when I actually do, it's as an Asian woman, and not as a woman...which is me just preaching to the choir, no?
I'm going to share a very different story, so bear with me as it does relate to the topic.
ReplyDeleteI'm a transgender, mixed race (1/4 Korean) woman, born male.
When I first started going to doctors and psychologists about sexual reassignment, I was crushed to find that they didn't feel I was "ready" yet, despite already living as a woman and being far more along than many people in my support group, mentally speaking. People would tell me things such as "Asian men are feminized by Western culture, your feelings spring from your internalizing this" and that I still thought and acted in masculine ways. I couldn't understand, it was as if I was being held to a totally different standard than my peers.
It wasn't until I met another transgendered Asian woman that I understood. Sure, I'm as feminine as any white woman, but not like an Asian woman. My new friend told me that Asian male-to-female trassexuals in the US and other western countries are held to a different standard because we're expected to be the giggling geisha stereotype. Not all doctors, of course, and I finally found a good one on her advice, but enough that I find it deeply disturbing how ingrained these ideas are. It's taken as "fact" and then even defended as "respecting cultural differences", as if all Asian-Americans and all the countries in Asia are one big kimonos and dragons outdated culture of submission and honor. It's like what was described in the Native Americans in Aspic thread, there's this almost mythological people calles "Asians" which are not the same as the real people. When people say "Asian girl" they're not talking about a female who is Asian, but the golden Asian Girl.
And yes, white women absolutly do uphold this stereotype as well: http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2005/04/09/geisha/index.html
Thanks ever so much for this, it's a really fascinating discussion, and I do wish there were more like this being discussed by whites.
ReplyDeleteI say this because I'm a lesbian white woman not long into her 30's, who has dated both women-of-colour as well as white women, in a proportion high enough that I've been asked if I "prefer women-of-colour" (interestingly enough, asked quietly under the breath) and the question took me totally aback. I hadn't thought of it that way.
(as an aside, one thing I look for in dating a woman is a reflection of my own experiences in living on a few different continents, both growing up and as an adult ... so I look for cultural juxtapositions in the personality/experience of those I date, which tends to mean women-of-colour, because I get really frustrated with the culturally blinkered ethnocentrism of many white women ... although that can crop up in any race/ethnicity of course).
The funny thing is that of the women of asian background that I have dated, not a single one could be described as 'submissive'. Not that I can, or should, generalise about any race/ethnicity, because each has exactly the same amount of different personality types, but there have been times I have thought about these guys that want the stereotype of the 'geisha girl' writ large to all asian women, and I can't help but think "Have you actually MET any asian women?! I mean, REALLY met them?".
In the gay community we don't have the best history of racial inclusion unfortunately, and we have our own groups ... we have the 'Rice Queen' which is the white gay male who only goes after younger asian guys (which really reveals the intersectionality of racism and misogyny, given the power-dynamic implicit in the 'gendered' difference in terms of performances of femininity and masculinity in gay men being overlapped onto race).
The interesting thing is that I don't think there is a similar moniker in the lesbian community. I don't doubt that there aren't such white women within the community (as we aren't any more evolved than any other social group), but it's noteworthy that it isn't named. In fact, I am thinking about writing a blog post myself about this.
Anyway, not that I have much really to contribute to this discussion, just really wanted to say how much I appreciate it being done.
"I also disagree with those who believe it's only East Asians who are fetishized. Many of these fetishizing white males cannot tell the difference between SouthE. and East Asian. They just see "ASIAN LAY" and forge ahead. If an Asian woman looks "feminine" enough (thin, with long black hair, and clear, but not necessarily pale, skin) that seems to be "good enough"."
ReplyDeleteGood point. I think it's the Asians that look like what WP consider Asians to look like, and that would be your descriptor. It's interesting to note, however, that Indian and Pakistani women are not fetishized to the same extent (and the rest of Asia is just sort of ignored. especially Central Asia. Most people probably don't even know what or where Uzbekistan is). Many older people in the UK use 'Oriental' specifically for East (maybe SouthE, too?) Asian peoples, so maybe it's more of an 'oriental' fetish, if we wanted to be specific.
Sonic said...
ReplyDelete"when I'm quiet (for whatever reason) people are more kind and chatty to me, trying to "draw" me out and acting like they get the prize if they can wheedle some sort of response"
This immediately made me think of the old "inscrutable" trope, and the romantic idea that Asia is the Land of Ancient Mysterious Knowledge. They're kind of retro now, but I don't think ever really went away. They just got buried. (Do stereotypes ever die?)
I'm almost certain the wheedlers want to get "close" to a stereotypically quiet/reserved Asian because managing to do that makes them feel special. Not being close, mind you!— just getting close. Once again, it's all about them. It goes something like: "Look how reserved she is. They all are. They know things WP don't. Even though it's her natural genetic tendency to be withholding, she'll talk to me, cuz she can tell I'm much more specialer than those other WP. They're not worthy. But for me, she will open up like a lotus!! Suck it, plain-vanilla white people!"
It's a bit like the fetishization of Native Americans, where the holy grail is being "accepted as one of their own." Or perhaps more appropriately: it's the Last Samurai fantasy. I'm not sure it even matters if they actually learn the (*rolls eyes*) "Ancient Chinese Secrets" or not; I think it more about being (in their minds) accepted into this special (secret) club. Getting past the velvet rope, as it were. ("Oh, step right in, sir! Gotta keep the riffraff out, you know.") In their minds, the fact that they're being allowed access lessens their whiteness. I'm thinking that's the "prize" they're looking for.
@named:
ReplyDeleteAbout the catcalls vs. missing male attention when you're with white women:
I'm curious, do you get catcalls (Asia-related or not) when walking with WW? If not, do you happen to notice whether the men on the street are in fact noticing you? IOW, do they simply not notice you at all (only looking at her), or do they see you and not say anything?
(I'm wondering because I swear a WW creates some kind of (possibly feminism-based?) anti-holla forcefield when she's walking with a WOC! Two WW together = catcalls. Two WOC together = catcalls!!! A mixed pair = looks only. Or is it just me?)
In their minds, the fact that they're being allowed access lessens their whiteness. I'm thinking that's the "prize" they're looking for.
ReplyDeleteCould it also be that it reaffirms their Special Snowflake status? So that, even in "turning against" Whiteness, they are reaffirming the superiority of White people. After all, who else has the innate talent, pluck, and overarching humanity to out-Asian Asians than White people?
Thank you so much for sharing, Cloudy.
ReplyDelete@Cloudy:
ReplyDeleteWhiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Again with the f'd up health professionals? What doesn't racism pollute? Because you gotta love the— hello!— psychoanalyzing there: "your feelings spring from your internalizing this [completely f'd racial construct created by WP]." Riiight. But of course theirs don't. (Was this coming from actual doctors? That... can't be right.) And then! This racism is "defended as 'respecting cultural differences'"?!
*ragevomit*
____
Also: HMFS, how did we miss Gwen Stefani??
That link was so on point. This is some pure (white) gold right here:
...her ever-present entourage: Four harajuku girls, or rather, Stefani's interpretation of Tokyo street fashion in the Harajuku district... in interviews, they silently vogue in the background like living props; she, meanwhile, likes to pretend that they're not real but only a figment of her imagination. They're ever present... simpering behind fluttering hands or bowing to Stefani. That's right, bowing. Not even from the waist, but on the ground in a "we're not worthy, we're not worthy" pose...
Ugh. Where's my bucket at.
The submissive stereotype is incredibly difficult to escape from. It doesn't matter if most of the time I'm someone with a strong personality. If there are moments where I'm more shy or less talkative, it's what they remember.
ReplyDeleteIt's frustrating because the first week or two that I met my roommate in grad school, we were helping someone else carry boxes and the particular box that I carried was a heavy box and I could only walk a bit before having to rest it. She came by and took the box herself and carried it the rest of the way. I found out later from her that at that moment, she was worried that she would be living with a weak, fragile Asian woman. I feel like if I had been white (and not blonde), that thought wouldn't have occurred to her, and she wouldn't have been afraid that she'd be living with a wilting flower.
A friend of mine is an "asiaphile." We met at a conference when he came and sat at my table for breakfast and introduced himself. At the time I didn't think anything of it, but later I wondered how much of his motivation at the time was due to the fact that I was an Asian female. Upon finding out that I was Chinese, this friend will use his Chinese with me. I found this incredibly irritating. Though I'm fluent in Chinese, he didn't know this. The assumption that because I'm Chinese American, I should know Chinese was upsetting. He would ask questions or say hello in Chinese, and I would respond in English. I refused to engage.
I am perhaps somewhat paranoid about men having an asian fetish. I am extremely nervous about dating any men who's had several asian girlfriends. I date white men, but I am their first asian girlfriend. This doesn't mean that they don't have any asian fetishes and fantasies, but I feel a little bit better knowing that they've dated white women and that I'm not just another asian girlfriend.
I've had men attempt to pick me up from bars by first asking my ethnicity and then reminding me that they've heard "Chinese women treat their men really well."
I also agree with fromthetropics that there is a distinction between asian women and asian american women. Asian American women are rarely if ever submissive, but asian women sometimes play into that stereotype quite a bit. Sometimes I watch my mom interact with other people, and I see how every one of her actions plays right into that stereotype. Sometimes I watch my friends do it and it's frustrating to know that they're contributing to the perpetuation of that stereotype. They're demure, giggly, and quiet. But at the same time, they are who they are, unaware of this stereotype, and how much of who I am is governed by knowing this stereotype exists? Am I more fierce, more talkative, more outgoing because I know this stereotype exists and resent it and therefore push myself in certain parts of my personality to combat it? Sometimes I feel as though being a minority, no matter what I do, someone else governs my life; someone else's ideas and notions determine what I do.
And @Sarah from Chicago, the answer is that no, these men haven't REALLY met any asian women because that's what it means to be a fetish. There is nothing deeper than a sexual fantasy.
I am perhaps somewhat paranoid about men having an asian fetish.
ReplyDeleteSame here. Even if it wasn't a 'string' of Asian girls, if I was the second, and then later I find out no. 3 is also Asian and in fact had correctly guessed that she probably would be Asian...hmmmmm.... Even if I know the guy was a great guy, and you weren't a 'fetish', it does kind of leave you sort of wondering if there's some sort of subconscious funny kind of preference at work there. Maybe, maybe not.
but asian women sometimes play into that stereotype quite a bit
I think it's also involuntary though at times. I remember a certain (white) commenter...was it 'Chuck'(?) here a while back who insisted that Asians are 'quiet' despite me pointing out that Chinese restaurants are usually really loud. I've seen many Asians (non-American, and both male & female) who are really loud among themselves, but become awfully quiet in the presence of Westerners/English speakers either because they feel intimidated or they find themselves playing the stereotype.
@karinova
ReplyDeleteYou know, I never look at people when I'm walking down the street and I do that on purpose--when I do look at people and inadverdantly make eye contact, I find that the lewd comments increase in number and if I just keep my head down, I'm less likely to hear crap from guys (although I still hear it. Wow, maybe I should just move...cuz trust me, I'm no looker).
As such, when I'm walking with a WW, I don't notice if men are looking or not, but you definitely bring up an interesting point, in that WW seem to create an "anti-holla forcefield". I never really get the catcalls and junk when I'm with WW, but I've DEFINITELY gotten them when I've been with other WOC. Wow. All I get when I'm with WW is ignored in stores and restaurants, etc.
WW anti-holla forcefield indeed. I have my own hunch as to why that happens, but it's not really related to swpd, so I shall refrain. :)
cL, you said, "Sometimes I feel as though being a minority, no matter what I do, someone else governs my life; someone else's ideas and notions determine what I do."
ReplyDeleteI just want to say that this really resonates with me. I'm not asian, but I am a WOC, and when I think about the extent to which I alter my behavior to avoid stereotypes or discrimination, it really saddens me. I won't get into details because I don't want to get off topic from this post, but I just wanted to say, yeah, I feel you. Thanks for putting it into words.
I also wanted to point out that even though Asian women are hyperfeminized, they still have nothing like the protection offered by White Womens Tears. They're expected to actually want anything done to them, no means yes and stop means more. We've discussed how the femininity of black women is ignored and they're treated as less than human, but the treatment of Asian women seems to show that WoC will be dehumanized no matter what, even for reasons that totally conflict with one another.
ReplyDelete@cL
ReplyDelete"And @Sarah from Chicago, the answer is that no, these men haven't REALLY met any asian women because that's what it means to be a fetish. There is nothing deeper than a sexual fantasy."
*nods* the thing is, as any good sociologist knows, the way we interact with someone is we interact based on what we expect and want/need from that person, so if that expectation is quite strong, all we see is that which conforms to such, excluding all contradictory evidence.
Which becomes particularly a problem for POC, and WOC specifically, due to the power imbalances occurring giving the expectations of WP, and WM particularly, more social weight. That's in part what causes your feelings that as a minority, no matter what you do, someone else's ideas and notions determine what you can or can't do. And why if you act according to such, even if it's contrary to how you yourself are, it is often a smoother ride.
But I suspect I'm telling you stuff you already know :)
Returning to the subject at hand; so is it just the fetish? At what point does a racist expectation become a fetish? Does it merely require the racist expectation to be a sexual one? And specifically, what is it about "orientalism" that effects Asian women so? Because as someone above mentioned, this is not something that effects women from South-West Asia (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh)
@ Cloudy:
ReplyDelete>> "I also want to point out that even though Asian women are hyperfeminized, they still have nothing like the protection offered by White Women's Tears."
Do you think that this contributes to the fetish? Like, "Thank heavens for women we don't have to protect"?
Well clearly, there is a very narrow band of existence for women in general. Women only exist inasmuch as they make WP (WM) feel validated. Below a certain level (BW), you're not feminine, which means you can't provide the power boost WM need so badly. In fact, you make them feel kinda bummed. So you don't exist. Above a certain level (AW), the potential power boost is so massive, they can't give up the validating stereotype in favor of your actual in-front-of-them existence. Once again, YOU are not there.
ReplyDeleteOf course, if an Asian woman DOESN'T act the way that's expected— ie: in the manner that makes the WM you're dealing with feel good (which, you'll recall, is the manner that erases your existence)— then she ends up in Feel Bad territory again. At which point you can't exist. Can't be allowed.
Screwed either way!
Willow, I think it does because it adds to the idea that you can do *anything* to an Asian girl and they'll be ok with it. And if they're not ok with it? Who cares! You can overpower them anyway.
ReplyDelete>> "It leads to the idea that you can do *anything* to an Asian girl and they'll be ok with it."
ReplyDeleteI am struck by how instantaneous the jump (made by WM, not you; I hope that's clear) from "don't need to Protect" to "free reign to mistreat" is.
Willow & Cloudy -
ReplyDeleteI think that's a big part of that, as white women can be seen as individuals to a certain extent (though, as women, certainly only to point), while women-of-colour, including AW, are seen as their race/ethnicity, intersecting with gender, and nothing else.
After all, one of the aspects of social privilege is the ability to generalise from the behaviours (or blinkered-expectations/stereotypes of behaviour) of an individual to the whole group, while seeing the members of one's own privileged group as specific individuals.
Femininity, and hence women's sexuality, are seen as merely adjuncts to the sexuality of men, the masculinity of men, and so in so much as Asian women exist to men, particularly WM, it's only in this context. I've talked to some of the asian women I am friends with about this thread, and all of them agree that it's often just simply easier for them to perform according to those expectations.
I've experienced similar as a lesbian, where it's difficult for a lot of men to understand a woman's sexuality that exists separate from that of a man's.
That's where a "white-woman's tears" comes in (love that metaphor btw), in that as individuals, they exist (again, at least to a point) as people, and so worthy of the protection as such by men. While an Asian woman exists merely as her caricature, not really real, not really a person, not as something that needs to be protected, but rather merely something that can be used without consideration for personhood.
another thing that I wanted to add is that I feel like a good amount of the time when white women speak out against this, it's in their own interest. They speak out against it only because they see Asian women as a threat, little prostitutes just looking to steal their men away. It's sad how many white people don't give a damn about racism until suddenly they're not the number 1 choice of white men any more.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'd really like to ask everyone, why is this thread so silent about white women's role in this? It feels like many are talking the safe route in this discussion.
A few weeks ago, the Guardian newspaper in the UK published a report on a Chinese-run brothel in London. From the own admission of the girls who worked there, the clients were overwhelmingly white males (even in a pluriethnic, multiracial melting pot like London).
DeleteWhen I commented and pointed out that the fantasies and fetishes of white men about Asian women could put those women in dangerous situations (which was well illustrated in the report), I was shouted down...by a white, female Swedish lady for making generalizations about white males. So white women like this lady refuse to admit that white men may display undesirable behaviour and attitudes, it's always the fault of the Asians... Ironically, Sweden, the country she comes from, is the one country in Europe where men most commonly resort to mail order brides from Thailand. The reasons for that, as one can guess, is not a suddenly discovered passion for Thai culture. They are: to fulfil their own fantasies and also, as you touched upon in your comment, to get rid of white women, who are perceived as excessively assertive and spoilt.
@ RVCBard:
ReplyDelete>> "...So that, even in turning against Whiteness, they are reaffirming the superiority of White people? After all, who else has the innate talent, pluck and overarching humanity to out-Asian Asians than White people?"
Dang, missed this comment earlier. I can definitely see this as a MAJOR factor in WP's mis/appropriation (or even fetishization) of "Asian culture"--it has a definite edge of "Our [white] way is the right way/we do it better" arrogance (does the ridiculousness of this need to be pointed out?). So it certainly seems likely that something similar might be going on with respect to Asian women.
I also really like your usage of the words talent and pluck--they really point to (IMHO) the paradox of putting "Asian-ness" on a pedestal while refusing to value Asian and Asian-American women themselves.
"And I'd really like to ask everyone, why is this thread so silent about white women's role in this? It feels like many are talking the safe route in this discussion."
ReplyDeleteWow, I never even thought of this, but I should have, simply as a WW. I'd like to second Cloudy's question, as one of my students mentioned as a asian woman that she had received these constructions both from men AND women, and in the discussion the latter never got followed up on.
Cloudy, I think you are very much on target with safe, as it seems like the majority of white commenters on this thread are female. Probably a combination of easier to Blame the Patriarchy than critique our own behavior, the focus of the OP, and a good dash of reflexive homophobia triggered by the sexual connotations of "fetishization."
ReplyDeleteBut, building from your point (uh, hopefully).
You pointed out earlier in this thread that Whiteness is often supremely illogical. This strikes me as another case of that--WW, especially White Feminists, go on and on about not needing to be focused on by men; self-validation; etc etc old news...yet as you point out the fetishization of Asian/Asian-American women seems to threaten us.
This seems to me to be a good example of patriarchy, and more specifically the myth that there are any good things about it for women having been internalized by WW who are thus complicit in the patriarchy, supporting racism. Does that sound accurate? Might that attitude also contribute to an underlying belief among WP that POC somehow "benefit" from racism?
Upon further reflection:
ReplyDeleteCloudy's point (WW seeing Asian women as a threat and this being the motivation for protesting their fetishization) triggers the central paradox in how WP (mis)interpreted the civil rights movement. We're fine (um, supposedly) with "fighting racism" or "racial discrimination", but not with giving up white privilege. Does Not Compute.
In the previous post I treated this as a White Feminist hang-up, but now I'm thinking it's more WIWL in general. Have you (or the other Asian/Asian-American women here) experienced it as even more widespread than that?
Damn, look what I did--totally took the focus away from WW's discrimination out to all WP. Maybe, then, it's a specifically female/feminist manifestation of WIWLism?
ReplyDeleteI think it's a specific manifestation. And in this case of dubious reasons for supporting a "feminist" cause, I wouldn't call them "well intentioned" white liberals.
ReplyDeleteI really wish there was more discussion in this thread, this is not a simple topic at all.
>> "And in this case of dubious reasons for supporting a 'feminist' cause, I wouldn't call them 'well intentioned' white liberals."
ReplyDeleteHm, I was looking at this from the (privileged) perspective of, "They* don't realize what they're doing." But that makes a lot of sense--one of the BIG things white feminists focus on is how "we don't hate men." So obviously appealing to men on at least some level is foremost in a lot of WF/WW's minds, even if in the guise that 'you have to play the system to beat the system.'
Cloudy, I'm definitely up for further discussion on these lines (WF/WW's paradoxical role in this discrimination). And not b/c it's about WF (i.e. me) but b/c this is something that hurts POC/WOC in particular and goes unexamined. I gotta go untangle a couple of thoughts; I'll be back. Hopefully other people will contribute as well.
* They? We? :private reflection time:
...not that my motive should be mentioned. I am sorry. If the Asian/Asian-American women here think I have no part in this discussion I will step back.
ReplyDeleteThis is not quite the right way to phrase it, but I am wondering if the root of this among WW is an inferiority complex crossed with the relentless message of "self esteem!" and "you are worthy!" that is emphasized by culture directed at white people.
And, b/c this is about the women being hurt by it, does it maybe contribute to or worsen the problem described above by several posters, about pressure to fit into stereotypes in order to be acknowledged by whites? FTT in particular mentioned this with respect to specifically *female* friends waaay upthread. (I don't want to be all, "I demand you tell me about your experiences." Uncool).
About white women's roles in this, I have a white female friend (we both are 20) who has an absolute fetish for Asian men and all things Japanese in general, which she is not afraid to explicitly state. I would say both genders participate in fetishization of (East) Asians.
ReplyDeleteAs for out-Asianing Asians, I knew another girl who'd say that "I'm more Asian than most Asians I know!" What a strange thing to say. Is that about trying to get ahold of some of that stereotyped femininity or what?
@ me:
ReplyDelete>> "If the Asian/Asian-American women here..."
Brilliant, me. Asian-*. I'm sorry, rest of world.
@ liz:
ReplyDeleteI'm sort of inclined to say "or what," actually. (Although I hope other people come along to share opinions on that.) There's a *lot* more to what WP usually mean by "Asian culture" than stereotypes of women as submissive, available to me, and treated as objects. Because that's what we mean by "fetishize Asian women" and that particular type of stereotyped femininity.
Also, please re-read the topic of the thread.
Oh. Shoot. Just thought of something.
@ Cloudy, by "taking the safe route," did you mean/also mean "we're not looking at how this operates in the queer [white...b/c...yeah] women's community"?
Willow, by "safe route" I mean it's easy to go "Yeah, treating Asian women like sex objects is wrong!" but it's harder to a) admit why you care about how Asian women are treated, but not black women (i.e. you're not losing your white preference when black women are stereotyped), and b) admit that "fetishizing" a group is not always sexual and happens in a much broader context (see: Gwen Stefani)
ReplyDelete(general "you")
The discussion about white women went past over my head probably because I, personally, have never really experienced any ill-feelings from WW as a(n Asian) woman but only as an Asian person. Well, okay, one time a blond girl who used to like the ‘white’ guy (actually he’s Eurasian, but as far as most ppl were concerned, he was ‘white’) I was dating looked me up and down when she saw me with him. Not sure if that’s just a female thing or a bit of racial prejudice was involved. Otherwise, what I experience from WW is only based on their perception of me as an Asian person. (But this is my experience, others probably have more experiences in this area.)
ReplyDeleteWillow said: about pressure to fit into stereotypes in order to be acknowledged by whites? FTT in particular mentioned this with respect to specifically *female* friends waaay upthread.
In my case, it is simply that they expect me to behave in a certain way (quiet, docile, etc) because that is all they know of Asians, and that expectation acts like an invisible straightjacket. It’s similar to when someone expects you to fail, and you feel the expectation directed so strongly at you that you fulfill those expectations because of the pressure, and you indeed fail. .e.g. A Eurasian person once told me that he speaks an Asian language fluently, but because in Asia people see him as 'white', they expect him to be bad at the local language, so he ends up getting nervous, and speaks badly. (And the same happens to me with English when I'm in a Western country.) So, for me it has nothing to do with being accepted by white people. If I really wanted to be accepted by them, what I need to do is breakaway from the stereotype and start acting like them (i.e. assimilate fully…well, as fully as it is physically possible).
"What would you do if you were sitting, say, in a subway or a classroom, and a man next to you started blowing (feverishly, as it were) into his iPhone, and it turned out that he's trying to blow aside the skirt of a tiny, simulated Japanese woman?"
ReplyDeleteAnd what if the man doing it were Japanese himself?
I agree with you 100% on the racism and sexism of the behavior, but...The app you're referring to, Puff! was originally created for the Japanese market by a Japanese developer, Bottle Cube (http://www.bottlecube.co.jp/). I'm surprised you didn't mention that.
The point? That the girl in the app is Japanese because the inventor of it is Japanese, presumably. Thus, this sentence: "also believe that such interactive images can encourage abuse that specifically targets Asian women" may or may not be true, but there's more to it than you mentioned.
Jillian,
ReplyDeleteI didn't mention that because this is blog about stuff white people do. And so, this post is about white fethishization of Asian women via such apps. Whoever created the apps is irrelevant to an examination of that common white tendency, and discussing Asian treatment of Asian women would be a reiteration of the Arab Trader Argument.
@ Cloudy,
ReplyDeleteI broached the idea of a post on white feminists' relationship with the fetishization of Asian women w/a few of the larger feminist blogs. I got one standard "thank you for your suggestion, we receive many" response and haven't heard back from the others. I'm not really expecting to...
/sigh I even went and dug up a bunch of past threads for evidence.
Macon,
ReplyDeleteHmm. I disagree, partly. I do think that discussing Asian treatment of Asian women is irrelevant to the post, but I felt as though the implication was that a white man had created the app (until I remembered another article I'd read). I don't feel that a brief mention of the developing company's name is irrelevant in presenting a full picture of the situation.
That said, I see how my first comment came across, and I apologize - I do not want to derail the conversation, but with all of the focus on the app, I do think it's good to mention who designed it (as I have not yet seen such an app that was NOT designed in Japan).
ReplyDeleteOk, so all the people saying that South Asian women are not fetishized in the same way as East Asian women, that was really bugging me, but I couldn't put a finger on it.
ReplyDeleteMaybe its because the South Asian community in the U.S. is relatively new and hasn't recieved as much attention until recently as the East Asian community. Canada on the other hand, which has a much more visible South Asian community (larger part of the population) is definitely fetishizing South Asian women in the exact same way.
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/006083.html#more
I read this article yesterday: How to make a Chinese or Japanese book cover". It says you need to have one of four elements on the cover: Blossoms, fans, dragons, or a female neck.
ReplyDeleteThen today I was in a cafe and passed by a White male + Asian female pair having lunch/coffee. They didn't look like they were dating, maybe just having a casual lunch? It seemed like they don't know each other too well just yet. She didn't look fully comfortable, but maybe I was imagining that. Both were possibly in their late-twenties or early thirties. I didn't think much of it until I passed them on the way back and saw that the white guy's collared shirt had a dragon embroidered on each side of the chest. I couldn't help but laugh (once out of earshot of course). I mean, I used to wear dragon t-shirts myself, but that was when I was in my teens. Seemed like a possible Asian fetish thing going on.
So I am a white man who is attracted to Asian women - specifically, women of East Asian descent - and a lot of comments in this thread piss me off.
ReplyDeleteFirst, why is it even called a fetish? Why the social stigma? You don't hear much about a "Latina fetish", or "black fetish", or "blonde with big boobs fetish". How is it that Asian women get lumped into this category while others do not? (And yes, I do realize Asian is not an ethnicity.)
Second, I do not buy into any of the stupid stereotypes usually associated with the so-called "Asian fetish". I do not believe Asian women - which is a shortcut for Asian-American here - are particularly submissive or subservient or family-oriented (though some are). I have met many women of Asian background; some shy and demure, some more assertive, and some downright bitchy. I am not looking for a mail-order bride. I also do not believe Asian women share the same body type, though some characteristics are more common.
Third, while I do treat women I meet as individuals with a distinct personality, why does everybody seem to be in denial that looks are important for a physical attraction? Humans, and men specifically, are visual creatures; excuse me, but I simply prefer women who look a certain way. There has got to be a personal, emotional connection, but it's not what hits my eye when I see a woman in a crowd. For the record, I do not find ALL Asian women to be attractive. I am not attracted to Asian women who are overweight, or have bad skin, or do not look very intelligent, or have porn-star looks or fashion sense, or just do not appeal to me for one reason or another.
Fourth, what about women themselves? Is it only considered a "fetish" when a girl is not interested? What about all the mixed couples? I find it a little funny when Asian women with non-Asian significant others claim they are being valued and loved "for who they are", not because they're Asian. Well, how do you know? And even if it is true, do you think your looks were irrelevant when you first met? Of course, your boyfriend or husband will tell you what you want to hear. How do you know he's not jerking off to some Asian porn when you are not around?
Finally, even if all of the above is wrong and objectionable, what am I to do? Physical and romantic attraction is a complicated thing; it's pretty much the way your brain is wired. Are you going to ask me to stop looking for an Asian partner? Are you also going to ask a gay person to stop being attracted to members of the same sex?
@POWM, Seriously? Lemme guess. You arrived at SWPD by accident when you were googling "Asian women." Or maybe someone emailed you the link. If so, they were trying to give you a hint: your "preference" is creepy.
ReplyDeleteYour whole post is full of fail but it is clearly calculatedly offensive once you get to your 4th and final points.
- suggesting that AW in AW/WM relationships are willing dupes? I suppose then deserving of being objectified? I'd point you to a relevant post on SWPD but I really just want you to go away.
- men are visual? such a cheap excuse and a self-fulfilling meme. boys will be boys. no need for accountability here.
- comparing a "preference" for Asian women, especially by straight WM ,to same-sex orientation? Ha! Take that bleeding-heart liberals! You're supposed to be against oppression and here you are oppressing ME, who just "so happens" to have a thing for Asian women. You, straight white dude, ARE NOT OPPRESSED.
@macon, I dunno. Am I feeding a troll here? Should this even be dignified with a response?
Karen L, your response seems perfect to me. I only posted POWM's message because it seemed possible that he's not a troll, and instead has sincere questions, and thus might learn from some answers. You beat me to it, and answered better than I would have, so thank you.
ReplyDeleteThe more white men defend their "preference" for Asian women with a knee jerk reaction instead of saying, "Hmmmm, I wonder if I'm fetishizing too. (*ponders for awhile and says,) Nah, I've been attracted to other women, but so far it's worked out best more with women who happen to be Asian," the more I'm wary of white men who have a "preference" for Asian women.
ReplyDeleteI find it a little funny when Asian women with non-Asian significant others claim they are being valued and loved "for who they are", not because they're Asian. Well, how do you know?
We don't always know off the bat. Hence some of us, unlike you, ask lots of questions to be sure.
Physical and romantic attraction is a complicated thing; it's pretty much the way your brain is wired. Are you going to ask me to stop looking for an Asian partner? Are you also going to ask a gay person to stop being attracted to members of the same sex?
Oh gee, it's a biologically ordained preference eh? Well, aren't you glad you weren't born in a village in Europe in the 13th century? People would have thought you're crazy talking about these black haired women with yellowish skin tone.
@POWM:
ReplyDeleteExactly what do you mean by: "Do not look very intelligent"?....what type of asinine qualifier is this?
@FTT, I hear you on the defenses causing even more suspicion. It's telling that POWM started by saying that he was pissed off (truth hurts, I guess) and when he was done with a defense of his position that he went on offense, too. So are all the other straight white guys who just "happen" to prefer Asian women but not as offensive in their defense really coming from the same place as POWM but better bullsh*tters?
ReplyDeleteSo are all the other straight white guys who just "happen" to prefer Asian women but not as offensive in their defense really coming from the same place as POWM but better bullsh*tters?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I reckon they're better at making themselves believe that they just 'happen' to prefer Asian women because it makes life easier for two reasons. a) They don't have to question their own preference. b) They can 'feel good' and 'popular' among Asians and attribute it solely to their own personal charm as opposed to partly attributing it to the racial/cultural power dynamics at work. i.e. They can enjoy white privilege (however subtle) without questioning it.
The subtleness of it is what pisses me off because it breeds hypocrisy. (To the new readers: I'm not talking about overt fetishization here.)
I'm ethnically Japanese but grew up with white, adoptive British parents. As a teenager I lived with my grandparents and whenever I was out with my grandfather alone, I worried that people would think I was his girlfriend. He was in his 60s but there seems to be this attitude that not only is it super cool for a white man to have an Asian girlfriend, it's also perfectly OK if he is several years or several decades older than her (and part of the "submissive Asian woman" image is the idea that Asian women age better.) I still get those feelings when I'm in public with my dad, and it's always made me incredibly uncomfortable but I can never find the words to say why. I also tend to hear white British men talking about Thai women more often than any others - there aren't a lot of Korean people in the UK, and part of the image of "submissive" Japanese women comes from stereotypes found in Japanese manga, video games etc. which aren't so popular here as in the States.
ReplyDeleteRe. fetishisation of South West Asian women: I've known a few British guys who would like an Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi girlfriend but they think that most SW Asian women have arranged marriages, or come from strict homes where they wouldn't be allowed to go out with a white man.
@POWM: "First, why is it even called a fetish? Why the social stigma? You don't hear much about a "Latina fetish", or "black fetish", or "blonde with big boobs fetish". How is it that Asian women get lumped into this category while others do not? (And yes, I do realize Asian is not an ethnicity.)"
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I have a friend who is half-black African and half-Filipino. She is young, pretty, and she gets hit on all the time. After all this time, she shrugs it off, but she has gotten approached by guys who have "jungle fever" (who want to be with a black girl, ANY black girl), by guys who have "yellow fever" (who want to be with an Asian girl, ANY Asian girl) and by guys who want to go out with a mixed girl, ANY mixed girl.
There is a difference between having a preference for a woman of a particular type (i.e. you may like big-boobed brunettes, but if a blonde girl with small boobs who is gorgeous shows up in your life, you wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers) and having a fetish (i.e. you don't care how busted she looks, whether she has served 20 years for murder, and is a drug addict on top of it, as long as she is [insert ethnicity here]). Of course, you being a white male, which in the US is to be at the top of the racial/ethnic/gender totem pole, you might not understand this or be able to discern the difference, and that's OK. We all live and learn.
That said, in discussing the whole "fetish" thing with my aforementioned friend, she came up with something. She said that one of the primary objections of Asian women especially to being approached by non-Asian men is, "Oh, you are probably only going after me to serve your Asian fetish", and that the thing that her fellow Asian women do not realize is: no man will approach you if he is isn't interested in you in some way. That interest may not be due to your Asianness, so you shouldn't assume that it is. After all, we all have our "type"; if you don't fulfill that type, you won't get their attention, period. Men do not go for what they don't like, they just don't. In other words, don't judge him guilty of having an Asian fetish just because he stepped to you and you happen to be Asian (since "Any white boy who talks to me must have a fetish!") because that means that you are working from an as-yet unproven assumption...which means you are as guilty of stereotyping as you believe that white boy to be. Ironic, no? :) I do admit, the line between preference and fetish can be a thin one sometimes.
@Julie: "Re. fetishisation of South West Asian women: I've known a few British guys who would like an Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi girlfriend but they think that most SW Asian women have arranged marriages, or come from strict homes where they wouldn't be allowed to go out with a white man."
ReplyDeleteAnother friend of mine is an Indian-American (her parents come from the Punjab) and she has always dated interracially, black, white, Hispanic, other Asian guys, whatever, as long as you have a penis, she's good :) She's a member of a number of online dating sites, and you know they almost always have a checkbox for you to denote what your race is. She tells me that when she goes through her mail if she sees any guy who says "Have you ever dated a white boy before?" she deletes him. She's not interested in a person because they are from race A or ethnicity B, she looks at other things...like how they look in a thong :) In her dating, she has learned that some guys were afraid to get serious with her because of their assumption that "Indian parents are strict and will never allow their daughter to go out with a non-Indian, so I won't even bother".
Moral of the story: try your luck, don't go on assumptions, you never know what you're missing out on because of your fears and apprehensions. Also, you will be able to overcome any parental/societal objection to the two of you being together, if you are together for the right reason(s).
As for how that whole "submissive Asian woman" stereotype came about, I have no idea. Perhaps it came from the white man's inability to understand the Asian woman's language and assuming that because she isn't communicating with him, she must be demure, shy, etc. whereas in reality, she doesn't have anything to say because he wouldn't understand her anyway. Who knows?
I realize this is an older article and that many of the comments are old, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading the comments section here.
ReplyDeleteAs sort of a personal interest, I enjoy reading about the intersection of feminism in America and race or ethnicity, since so much of what the media or even feminist groups in America treat as "women's issues" or feminism is actually most relevant to straight white women from middle-upper class backgrounds.
A number of the comments left here were really enlightening to me, because they were about first-hand accounts of experiences of Asian/Asian-* women and interacting with white women, and personal feelings or perceptions.
I was wondering if anyone here could give me any reading advice for books/articles/blogs that take an academic and/or first-hand look at experiences, relations with other groups, feminism, and even fetishization by WP of Asian-American women?
I apologize if my curiosity comes across as offensive. I easily found lots of material regarding academic discussion of black and Hispanic feminism and issues facing those women, and obviously white feminism is often treated as the 'default', but I found it harder to find Asian-American woman-related discussion or literature, honestly.
I personally find the idea of men with "types" to be a little unnerving. I love the culture of Asia, I think it's really interesting and different from the culture in which I've grown up, but that actually makes me even MORE careful to respect its people. Not any more careful than I would be to respect anyone that I meet, but still careful. I don't believe that anything or anyone worth respecting (everything and anyone) should be fetishized at all.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, don't call me yellow. I'm not yellow. I'm lighter skinned than most White people, including the women and White people of Celtic or Scandinavian descent (like the Irish-Americans, etc).
ReplyDeleteCalling Asians by the term "Yellow" is racist and offensive because of its inaccuracy and one's lack of historical understanding of facts (the term was coined by Caucasians who saw the first East Asians and didn't know how to name them by color because they were as light as them, also East Asians are white skinned, Filipinos, Thais, Malaysians, Indonesians are brown, South Asians are as dark as African Americans), and East Asians who self-identify to that are confused and need counseling.
You guys are completely confused on what racism is about.
I do not know why the nick comes out as "unknown". I'll like to sign off as "AZN in USA".
ReplyDelete