Tuesday, October 13, 2009

fail to see how race and gender intersect

During the comments for the second of two recent posts here, on the difficulty that white people often have with truly listening to non-white people, thesciencegirl noted "the very obvious fact that WOC often experience sexualized racism or racialized sexism; the 2 are often difficult to separate." This distinction prompted fromthetropics to ask, "Is there a difference between 'sexualized racism' and 'racialized sexism'?" Then fromthetropics and another swpd reader, RVCBard, each sent me emails describing their experiences with living at intersections of racialized and gendered oppression, that is, as women of color. Each agreed to having their thoughts posted below in a joint guest post.

What do you think -- is sexualized racism different from racialized sexism? What should white people try to keep in mind in their encounters with people of color who are also women? Or should I make that, women who are also people of color? 

(For more on and from these two generous writers, see their other guest posts, here, here, and here.)


RVCBard writes,

Quite a few people commenting at SWPD asked about racialized sexism and sexualized racism. I didn't directly respond to that in the threads, but I have been thinking about it.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that it's virtually impossible for me to explain the difference between racialized sexism and sexualized racism. That's trying to parse racism and sexism in a way that I don't experience it. Rather than focus on the rightness or wrongness of that question, I'll set a few things straight about my experiences as a Black woman.

As a Black woman, it has been my experience that White people (particularly White men) generally do not perceive or value me as a woman. Yes, I am biologically female (like any other animal - note the irony here), but I'm not seen or treated as feminine or womanly. Typically, White men only recognize two modes of Black womanhood: Mammy and Angry Black Woman (aka Evil Black Bitch - take your pick).

It's easy to imagine what this means. When I'm seen in Mammy mode, I am only valued insofar as I take care of White people. I'm only worthy of attention and respect to the extent that I'm willing to extend endless physical, financial, emotional, and moral support more or less with a smile on my face. It doesn't seem to matter how much this puts me at risk or actually harms me. Without saying as much, they treat me as though they are entitled to endless patience, hospitality, politeness, and generosity. And when I show that my patience, generosity, politeness, and hospitality have limits, the response is not "I'm sorry" or "Let me fix that" but "What's the matter with you?" Thus begins the transition from Mammy to Angry Black Woman.

In personal and practical terms, this means that White people (especially straight White men), treat me as though I don't have legitimate feelings, or at least feelings that can be hurt. When I'm not completely placid or jovial, White people treat me like I'm misbehaving or a rabid animal. If I'm upset, White people don't take it as a cue that something is wrong. White people have a tendency to talk at me instead of to me or with me. They try to debate my feelings, give me unsolicited advice, or "try to talk some sense into me." Rarely do White people actually ask me what I need to get better, let alone offer comfort or reassurance for whatever I'm going through. Instead of treating me like a sane, intelligent adult with the needs and vulnerabilities of any human being, I feel like White people treat me like I'm a toddler who needs to be appeased or disciplined before going on with their lives. Even my friends do this to me. It's degrading and humiliating to be made to feel so insignificant.

It's as though, emotionally speaking, I'm treated like a linebacker at the big game and not like a real person with real feelings and real vulnerabilities. I often feel as though I'm not permitted to be complex or to need anything. Somehow, sheer fierceness is supposed to carry me through life. My Black Woman's Attitude becomes this superpower that renders me invincible, some strange blend of kevlar and teflon for the spirit. Apparently nothing can penetrate or stick to me. So I often get the sense that White people feel free to pile on the bullshit without offering any relief from it. It's so rare that White folks treat me with gentleness that I notice when it happens. Then again, what I'm interpreting as extraordinary tenderness is really just being treated like a human being.


fromthetropics writes,

There are some experiences which I have been struggling to understand and reconcile with, until some commenters here mentioned the terms ‘sexualized racism’ and ‘racialized sexism’.

In answer to my question in the comments,

Genuine question here to anyone who knows: Is there a difference between 'sexualized racism' and 'racialized sexism'? If so, what is the difference.

Angel H explained:

The way I understand it, sexualized racism is akin to fetishism because of a perceived sexual stereotype ("Black Brute" stereotype, "Latin Lover" stereotype, "Geisha Girl" stereotype, etc.) I think that racialized sexism would be more of a societal stereotype like the "Black Welfare Queen" stereotype or the "Submissive Asian Housewife" stereotype.

Please let me know if I'm making any sense! ^_^


Yes, that makes sense, but I still can’t seem to shake off this blanket of vagueness that I see when I think of my experiences. Let me relate some of them here.

One time I went with my (white) partner to see his two white male friends. They had met while they were in Indonesia on a language study exchange program. They all seemed to have had Indonesian girlfriend(s) or ‘girlfriend(s)’ while there. It was the first time I was meeting these two men. But no sooner had I sat down then I felt a sense of ‘yuck’ dumped onto me like a vague slimy mass. I felt as though his friends saw me as an ‘Indonesian woman’ as opposed to just a person or even just a woman. It was as though they saw me more as an Asian decoration that a white man could f*** (in both the literal and figurative sense).

I had heard that one of them used to have a few Indonesian ‘girlfriends’ simultaneously while studying there. This man’s reasoning was that Indonesians do this too, and hence in Rome do as the Romans do. (Though many others have informed me that in Indonesia ‘girlfriends’ or ‘boyfriends’ often just mean texting the opposite sex on a regular basis as opposed to anything really serious, though of course some may go a bit further.) So he was practicing a warped sense of cultural relativism at its peak (or rather, moral relativism), if you ask me. (And I’m sure had he had the chance to explain himself, he may have cited the practice of polygamy in Indonesia, though he of course would have omitted the fact that many Indonesian women abhor it.) The other friend was simply a sexist male slut, I was told.

Nothing overt happened that day. In fact, I had only a vague recollection of the stories that I had been told before I met them. But I felt a very strong sense of ‘yuck’, almost independently of those stories, as I sat there. This ensued into a huge row between my partner and I afterwards. (To be fair, these were not his close friends.)

On another day the other friend related how one of the Thai women he met in Indonesia was chasing after him by sending emails and what not. He laughed through his nose as he told the story. I felt an immediate ‘yuck’ slime splattered on me. Again, I felt as though the woman was not just a woman in his eyes. She was a ‘Thai’ or ‘Asian’ woman. I could see the prefix there, large and bold. My partner laughed too and said to him, ‘Well, it wasn’t like you had gone out with her or anything…did you?’ The friend didn’t answer in words but just gave a cheeky/sly smile as he puffed on his cigarette. My partner showed a slight sense of discomfort and surprise with this response. (I thought, Gosh! Are you seriously that naïve???? Sigh.)

But I had no evidence, as is customary. It was difficult for my partner to understand what it was that I was taking issue with. Understandably so, seeing that I had no real explanations either, apart from the ‘yuck’ feeling, and ‘just because’. But it hurts to the core.

‘What about my housemate,’ he asked. ‘How come you don’t complain about him?’

Good question. His white male housemate was going through a phase of sleeping around with women he does not care about. These are choices I personally disagree with, yet, even then, I have never felt this way (‘yuck’) when talking to him. I feel as though he sees me as a person, as a woman, as his friend’s girlfriend/partner without the prefixes ‘Asian’ or ‘Indonesian’. His personal life and choices do not come into play when he talks to me. My partner tried to understand what I was saying, and I think he managed to partially understand the difference.

Here’s another story told by a young white woman (of a non-English speaking background). A couple (white man, Indonesian woman) came to have dinner at her parents’ house. At one point the Indonesian wife said something in Indonesian to her white husband. The white husband said, ‘yeah, yeah,’ as though he was listening. The host asked the white man what his Indonesian wife had said. The man said, ‘I don’t know. I can’t understand what she’s saying either. It doesn’t matter.’ Upon hearing this, the young woman who was relating the story decided that she did not want to be in a cross-cultural relationship lest this happens to her – devalued as a female ‘ethnic’ Other.

Can anyone relate to this? How does one explain the dynamics of this ‘yuck’ feeling and the effect of the ‘prefix’ so that others, particularly (white) men, may understand?

Could it be that it is easier for men to see a woman of another color as a pseudo-prostitute? Is that what the ‘yuck’ feeling is about? Or is that – prostitute – too strong a word for people’s comfort?

73 comments:

  1. I haven't read this post yet, but I decided to comment anyway because I couldn't get past something I've thought when I read your blog: what do you mean by "white people"? As a Colombian-American born in Miami, FL, I think it's erroneous when anyone thinks that Hispanic, Latino/a, Chicano, etc. people are part of a monolithic group. I think it's also erroneous to treat "white people" as a group with no class, regional, gender, political, etc. variability. So, I think this blog would be more robust if it explored the intersections of whiteness with other social variables.

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  2. Thanks, both of you. I am a bit horrified, if not shocked, at some of the things fromthetropics mentioned. RVCBard, I also really admire you for continuing to try to educate (mostly white) people, even when so many people were so dismissive of your last post.

    I hope this doesn't come across as a "making this about me" post, and I'm worried it might. I think I have a usually-unheard POV on this that might help trudge through the "yuck" (as fromthetropics put it), although I am not sure which kind of “yuck” is which. Besides, if you are opening up and talking about the kinds of things you've experienced, it's the least I can do to open up in return.

    So I hope neither of you feel like I’m usurping your discussion or acting like I know better than you. If you think my post detracts from the dialogue you’re trying to open or is at all disrespectful, please let me know. I am still trying to figure out the most constructive way to participate in conversations about intersectionality in particular.

    Like I've said before, I'm one of those ethnicities mentioned in the previous post about white people denying their whiteness in favor of their ethnicity. I don't pretend I'm not white-- as much as I was raised to value my ethnicity, I was also raised as a white woman. However, for context, a lot of people try to "shoehorn" me and ask me leading questions to figure out if I am part black or part Hispanic—for example, yesterday in a public bathroom a woman I don’t know came up to me and asked if I was Dominican—as if they need to figure out what I “am” in order to label me. Because I was raised white, with all the privilege of not seeing racial issues that that entails, I didn't realize until I went away to college that this is what people were doing.

    What I have noticed is that, presumably because of this, I experience a very narrow cross-section of the kinds of "yuck" that women of color talk about experiencing.

    I experience some of the things RVCBard mentions. The "Mammy" stereotype obviously doesn't apply to me, but people almost always address me with a preconceived notion that I am a crazy bitch. And white people very frequently assume I am sexually permissive and don’t have good hygiene.

    A lot of people touch my hair without permission like I am an animal in a petting zoo and get offended if I ask them not to. White women who look more white than I do frequently condescend to me-- but only on stereotypically "women's" topics-- sex and beauty type stuff. They seem to think they have a right to have an opinion about how I look and dress. And men of various races do, too. Strange men often stop me to tell me I should relax my hair. Thanks, guys. I've also been turned down for jobs because my appearance (with natural haircolor, professional clothing, and no piercings or tattoos) wasn't "family-friendly."

    But what I don’t experience is the racism that has a sexual overtone to it. I haven’t experienced any fetishization or icky kinds of appropriative stuff like in the examples fromthetropics mentions. I also don't feel like anyone condescends to in a serious discussion like RVCBard was talking about the other day: people still respect my opinion as a professional and my expertise in my field (mostly, at least. You are always going to get some of this as a woman, but the vast majority of the time I feel as if my opinion is respected).

    So I would say I feel like I have experienced sexism that has a racial overtone, but not racism that has a sexual overtone.

    Or am I mixing them up? I'm having trouble deciding which is which. I have a feeling that is because, being white, I haven't actually experienced racism. But I felt like this might help with fromthetropics' questions about clarifying these things in ways that might help (white) men understand.

    Thanks again for putting yourselves out there.

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  3. "If I'm upset, White people don't take it as a cue that something is wrong."

    Perhaps you should be peeved at your fellow black females who perpetuate this stereotype, not the white males who simply notice its' prevalence.

    Here's a typifying example of an "Angry Black Woman". I agree it's a shame that you're lumped in with individuals like this, but again, stereotypes arise from truth. It's just that sometimes, as it seems to be the case with you, people belonging to said group are unfairly characterized.

    http://www.heavy.com/video/chicken-tetrazzini-seduction-on-maury-via-the-soup--67241/

    Advertisement plays first.

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  4. I think I understand where the yuck factor comes from. It's the same with me and guys. I lost my virginity to my friend of three years and after doing it, we started talking about something. All I can remember is his reply which was, "I've never done it with a black chick before." And it became a "ehh" feeling. I felt disgusted because he didn't see me as a woman but a "black" woman.

    A guy that I sort of knew in high school texted me, to tell me that he liked me. It started out ok until he started to mention what he wanted me to wear and etc. To cut a story short, he then told me over text, that he had a fetish for black women. That's all I am? Something for you to wank off to? And it's not just the men. I know too many white lesbian/bisexual women who've told me that they'll date only white LB women.

    It's annoying because I'm invisible unless it's to help or to tell off for speaking out. I am more than your advice giver or black bitch.

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  5. @OneSTDV,

    Wait, so because RVCBard is treated like she's just part of a "group" that "perpetuates" a stereotype, it's the fault of women of her background, not of white people who are incapable of noticing that RVCBard is an individual and not part of a group?

    I know a hell of a lot of crazy white women. I just spent an hour on the phone last night with a friend because he was the target of a crazy white woman. But he never said anything about that "crazy white bitch." No one white ever assumes that just because they meet/see one on TV, that all white women are crazy before they open their mouths. They assume the crazy one is an individual, just like every other white woman they meet. But when a white person encounters a crazy black woman, it's all about the fact that she is black, not about the fact that she's just zany. Why is the onus on RVCBard and the millions of non-crazy black women to prove that they're not like the minority when white people always assume that other white people are not like our nastiest white counterparts?

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  6. Men of color also fail to see how race and gender intersect.

    Instead of "sexualized racism versus racialized sexism", shouldn't it be "gendered racism versus racialized sexism"? "Sexualized racism" has the connotation of something sexual.

    There is also a Racialicious post, Is it sexism or racism? Or racialized sexism?

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  7. Instead of "sexualized racism versus racialized sexism", shouldn't it be "gendered racism versus racialized sexism"?

    I said I don't experience racism or sexism that way. There isn't one racism. There are racisms. To simply focus on how White people think and behave while ignoring the impact upon different POCs is an incomplete understanding at best. At worst, it perpetuates the problem of treating racism like an intellectual concept and not something grounded in real experience.

    WOCs and MOCs experience racism in particular ways just as WOCs and White women experience sexism in specific ways?

    In my case, in general, when dealing with White people and some POCs, race is the filter through which they understand my gender - if they acknowledge my gender at all (hence my saying, "[It] has been my experience that White people (particularly White men) generally do not perceive or value me as a woman."). It's something particular about the way race and gender intersect for myself and the Black women I know. Other women of color will experience that intersection in different ways.

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  8. @ Pistolina

    I replied to you on (I hope) the Arab trader argument thread. I didn't want to derail this one.

    Okay, back to regularly scheduled programming.

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  9. @RVCBard,

    I am so sickened that people treat you that way. And having seen it happen in my own community (especially in high school), all I can say is that it's all too common, disgusting, and I hope it changes. I'm appalled to hear you say that it happens from your own friends. I don't know what else to say except I'm sorry you've experienced that.


    I would also like to contribute, as Pistolina did, without making this about me. I do think it's hard, as a white person, to see how race and gender intersect in some situations, and I know that what I'm about to say does not constitute "racism" by definition, but it is nonetheless painful.

    I lived in an Arab country for a long time; in general, men in this particular country (and, to be fair, others) have a view of white women as being loose or easy, mostly based on what they see on TV and in movies. Therefore, while the women in this country were often harassed on the street, I was harassed, poked, grabbed, and treated as an object. I was pinned up against a vehicle and nearly raped once, while nobody (men) who saw did a damn thing. And all for being out at 10 pm by myself.

    You know what happens when I complain about this phenomenon to friends in that country? They assume it's my fault; that I dressed incorrectly (I didn't), that I looked the wrong way, that I did something wrong. Typical blaming of the victim.

    While this was not "racism" in the proper definition, it is absolutely, most certainly racialized sexism.

    (It has also helped me better understand how it happens in my own country, and to whom it happens)

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  10. I remember vividly learning several years ago in a history class that it was legal for a white man to marry a black woman before it was legal for a white woman to marry a black man. It's a dynamic I still mull over, and at the time I thought, "Yuck."

    The legality of a white man/black woman union when the inverse was illegal assumes an explicit devaluing of black women (I'm not sure if this law encompassed other WOCs) to "slave" or "prostitute" status. In a time when men were unquestionably the dominant partner, society refused to allow black men dominion over white women but gave white men the green light to lord over black women, sexually and otherwise.

    So no, I do not think prostitute is too strong a word.

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  11. I just saw a relevant blog post at OKCupid, which some of you may find interesting - http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/10/05/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

    Wow, those are both really crappy experiences. It's kind of fascinating to see the contrast, too, between RVCBard's treatment as a black woman and fromthetropics's observations about the treatment of WOC. It seems white men consider Asian women potential romantic partners (as was also observed in the "date Asian women more than Asian men" thread), but not black women.

    It occurs to me that while white men usually seem to react to white women strictly as individuals or "women," they do occasionally fetishize specifically white women. The guys I have in mind are the ones who get mail-order brides from Eastern Europe, or the ones who are so mind-bogglingly racist that they desire to marry a white woman and use them to churn out 15 or so white babies for the preservation of the white race.

    It also occurs to me that the racism directed at MOC often has a sexual aspect. As in, "Oh noes the black men will rape our wimmins" or similar.

    So maybe terms like "sexualized racism" or "racialized sexism" can only be applied when talking about who aren't at an intersection of race and gender, as odd as that seems. Because from what RVCBard and fromthetropics are saying, it seems they apply very poorly for people who are.

    This whole discussion kinda reminds me of that episode of Scrubs where Elliot (WW) and Turk (BM) argue over whether it's worse to be a black doctor or a female doctor, see a black woman doctor pass by, and simultaneously salute her with a "You go, girl," or something.

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  12. RE: the yuck factor, I've experienced this as well, a white male classmate told a group of female classmates that he wanted to experience sex with an Asian woman and a black woman. Cue me (black) and my classmate (Chinese descent) looking at each other like WTF.

    I also noticed that racist feel more comfortable expressing themselves in front of WOC because they feel we are less threatening.

    Another example of racism overlapping with other ISMs is that foreign born blacks have told me that white people feel very comfortable saying racist things against black Americans in front of them. Then the white people assume the foreign born blacks agree with them because they are too shocked/polite to respond.

    @ Pistolina, they have to figure out what you are so they can know how to treat you, it would be too decent to just treat you like a human being

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  13. @bluey512 - Maybe this is off topic I don't know, but in response to your comment @ 10:58, when it comes to the fetishization of white women, yeah, sure, a strange select group of white men do it.

    Also, I think many men of all races in the world do it. In fact, I don't think there's any group on the planet more sexually fetishized for their race than white women.

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  14. I don't know why, but taking the comments from your previous posts and using them as a jumping off point for your next post strikes me as hilariously passive-aggressive for some reason. It's like something my mom would do.

    I had actual, meaningful commentary I wanted to add, too, but I have to leave for work in four minutes. Hopefully, I can post tomorrow.

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  15. Vick - Actually, I think the very idea that men of color fetishize white women (although I'm sure some do) may be part of the sexualized racism against them. In fact, the data on that OKCupid blog page indicates that Middle Eastern women are actually the most desired - on average and among white men - in terms of how often their messages are replied to. Granted that's just among the people who use OKCupid, but still, I don't think it's at all safe to assume that white women are the most desired.

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  16. "Wait, so because RVCBard is treated like she's just part of a "group" that "perpetuates" a stereotype, it's the fault of women of her background, not of white people who are incapable of noticing that RVCBard is an individual and not part of a group?"

    When a certain group has such a high rate of a certain trait (like basketball players being tall), it becomes very difficult for someone to parse the individual from the group. We, as humans both black and white, categorize things without even thinking.

    So when a person exhibits behavior that squares with the stereotype of their group, a person witnessing this behavior will unconsciously note the pattern.

    So while these white males should see her as an individual, she should also blame the much higher percentage of crazy black woman who gave rise to the caricature in the first place.

    For example, let's say a really smart person goes to a horrible college with a party school reputation. When a third party is informed that this really smart person went to this school, it's statistically rational to assume this really smart person trends towards the average individual at that school. After all, really smart people are relatively rare amongst the population of this school. So while the third party should have been more sensitive to individual variation, the blame mostly resides with the idiots at the party school giving the school a bad name, not the people simply noting obvious patterns.

    And yes there are crazy white woman, but seriously, anecdotal evidnece is laughable. You're honestly going to assert that the "angry woman" is just as prevalent amongst white women as amongst black women?!?!? Come on.

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  17. The point about the unique intersectional experience of WOC with regard to sexism and racism, whatever you want to call it, is very similar to the work Julia Serano has done in developing the discourse of trans misogyny. In the latter case, Serano makes the argument that the oppressions faced by trans women due to their positioning with respect to both transphobia and sexism produces an oppression which is not reducible to the sum of its parts. The same thing is going on here, only the relevant intersection is that of racism and sexism; I think the pattern holds throughout the kyriarchy: the oppressions faced at any given intersection contain elements which are unique to that intersection and not reducible to the sum of their parts.

    ---

    OneSTDV, you seriously need to check your privilege here. You write: "And yes there are crazy white woman, but seriously, anecdotal evidnece is laughable. "

    And it somehow never occurs to you that your notion that black women predominantly conform to the ABW stereotype is also based on anecdotal evidence?

    Oppressed groups are not responsible for their own oppression.

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  18. /sigh

    OneSTDV, you've only got about half of the theory behind stereotypes.

    You're right that we have a tendency to categorize. We also have a tendency to resist recategorizing, relabeling those categories, or moving things from one category to another when the situation changes.

    In this case, we are talking about stereotypes, which are first and foremost perpetuated by the media rather than "anecdotal" day-to-day experiences. These stereotypes create the categories in our heads. Then, every time we see a black woman act--even for just one moment, and even if totally justifiably--in a manner that would go under "Angry [Black] Woman," it confirms the stereotype, and thus reinforces the boundaries of that category. However, when we see a white woman act in the same manner, we notice it because it does not fit into the mental categories we have, and thus seems unusual. Furthermore, we mark it *as* unusual, thus further confirming the stereotype that Angry Women aren't white.

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  19. So what I'm hearing is that the Angry Black Woman stereotype just arose out of the air and has absolutely no truth value whatsoever?

    That black women do not exhibit any more aggression than women of other races?

    So it's just my imagination that black womenTEND to be highly aggressive and Asian women TEND to be highly passive with white women somewhere in the middle?

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  20. OneSTDV -- what the hell? Are you seriously this clueless??

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  21. One STDV:
    Yes, it's just your imagination.

    I'm 100% serious.

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  22. @ Takeout Wench:

    Wait so let me get this straight one more time:

    It's only because of white privelege, institutional racism, and media bias that stereotypes concerning black women have arisen? So black women don't exhibit any behavioral patterns different than white women?

    Wow, thanks for enlightening me.

    Maybe you're right. I guess the stereotype of the black single woman with loads of children by different fathers is wrong too.

    "Other data released last month showed the percentage of unwed mothers differs from race to race. While 28 percent of white women gave birth out of wedlock in 2007, nearly 72 percent of black women and more than 51 percent of Latinas did."

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/04/08/out.of.wedlock.births/index.html

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  23. OneSTDV, you're veering too far off the road here.

    This all goes back to what you wrote above:

    When a certain group has such a high rate of a certain trait (like basketball players being tall), it becomes very difficult for someone to parse the individual from the group. We, as humans both black and white, categorize things without even thinking.

    So when a person exhibits behavior that squares with the stereotype of their group, a person witnessing this behavior will unconsciously note the pattern.


    Yeah, an unthinking person who lets stereotypes guide their reactions to other people will note the pattern; they also tend to ignore the many more examples of people in that group who don't fit the pattern.

    When it comes to categorizing things without thinking in terms of race, what you're really talking about is stereotyping. And what you're also talking about, but not admitting to, is racism.

    The issue is not how many of some group fit some stereotype; it's the assumption on the part of others that any random member of said group fits the stereotype, without solid evidence that they actually do. And also, as I just said, the ignoring of the many members of the group who don't fit the "pattern," that is, the stereotype.

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  24. Once again, another post by RVCBard descends into irony.

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  25. "The issue is not how many of some group fit some stereotype; it's the assumption on the part of others that any random member of said group fits the stereotype, without solid evidence that they actually do. And also, as I just said, the ignoring of the many members of the group who don't fit the "pattern," that is, the stereotype."

    I agree with this. But the blog post author should also blame the huge amount of black women that perpetuate the stereotype. The stereotype doesn't arise out of thin air. It came from somewhere. So the blog author should blame the people from which it comes, the individuals that make her look bad.

    The blame is one both sides, but with sites like this, the oppressive white males always get ALL the blame.

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  26. Right, RVCBard, sadly enough. I hope we get back on track here.

    One last thing on your tangent, OneSTDV -- you really should get what sqrrel said above into your head:

    Oppressed groups are not responsible for their own oppression.

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  27. "Oppressed groups are not responsible for their own oppression."

    Well, since all groups except straight white christian males are "oppressed", does that mean that straight white christian males are the only ones who can ever be held responsible for anything?

    Sounds like par for the course in liberal fantasyland.

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  28. Well, since all groups except straight white christian males are "oppressed", does that mean that straight white christian males are the only ones who can ever be held responsible for anything?

    No. It means that the oppressed are not responsible for their own oppression. There is, of course, much else that they are responsible for.

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  29. @ RVCBard and fromthetropics

    First of all, I am sorry for my part in semi-troll feeding.

    Secondly, I have a question for you, and any other WOC on this thread. If this is 101-level stuff that I should be reading for myself elsewhere, please feel free just to tell me that. But onwards.

    RVC, in your original post, you said, "it has been my experience that White people (particularly White men) generally do not perceive or value me as a woman."

    I am curious--do you, or any other WOC, notice a difference not so much in the degree to which this happens, but rather in *which* stereotypes white men versus white women tend to attack/attach to you?

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  30. I was out all night, but I just wanted to say, RVCBard, you are one classy lady.

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  31. “I’ve always wanted to take a shower with an Asiatic girl.” That is a direct quote from a text that I recently got from a white man whom I considered to be a friend. It was in response to a text that I sent him asking him if he was busy and wanted to hang out since I was leaving in a few days. After I expressed that that shower was NOT going to happen, he responded with “Then I am busy, good-bye.”

    So, no, I don’t think prostitute is too strong a word; in fact, if there’s a stronger one, I would use that even. Because just as prostitutes are just supposed to be faceless women men can f*ck, so are we as women of colour, seen as identity-less. The issue of interchangeability is a significant issue. The thing about white men seeing us as prefixed women is that we don’t matter as individuals, I dare say that we don’t even exist as individual women. We exist rather as exoticized 2 dimensional characters in some fetish game or fantasy, completely interchangeable with another prefixed woman. I daresay that your partner’s friends who see you as an Indonesian woman rather than a person would, if it didn’t work out, likely say (or at least think) “Well, he can just get another one,” rather than appreciate the significance of your impact on his life as an individual.

    But men are at least supposed to pay a prostitute for her sexuality, while men seem to think that our sexuality is something they can just help themselves to. Every single day, at least once, I will be on the receiving end of unwelcome sexual comments and, more often than I care to share, things more serious than comments. And it’s always in public with other people around, and it’s always by white men. It’s not an issue of merely being attractive to men, because my roommate happens to be a beautiful white former runway model; and it’s not merely coincidence that the offenders happen to be white men because I reside in an area with a very high concentration of PoC. It’s a matter of exoticization and entitlement. It devalues WoC and interprets our “otherness” as “asking for it” so that it is socially acceptable for our bodies to be seen as the playgrounds and our persons as the playthings of white men.

    Suheir Hammad wrote an incredible poem about the exoticization of WoC. She’s a slam poet so you can hear the poem in its entirety here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVkylZEgsY8
    but the central 3 stanzas are reproduced below.

    don't seduce yourself
    with my otherness
    my hair wasn't put on top of my head to entice
    you into some mysterious black voodoo
    the beat of my lashes against each other
    ain't some dark desert beat
    it's just a blink
    get over it

    don't build around me your
    fetish, fantasy, your lustful profanity
    to cage me in, clip my wings

    don't wanna be your exotic
    your lovin' of my beauty ain't more than
    funky fornication, plain pink perversion,
    in fact, nasty necrophilia
    because my beauty is dead to you
    I am dead to you

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  32. @OneSTDV

    If you would humour me, I would like a moment to challenge your assertion that “stereotypes arise from truth” because that has always seemed like a cop out to me. I think I can best explain what I mean with an example: the predominant stereotype in the 1800s of blacks by white Americans was that they were so inferior, inept, and backward that they would be hopelessly lost without slavery. I have little doubt that you think that stereotype is as groundless, idiotic, and just plain racist as I do. Whatever that particular stereotype arose from, I think we can all agree that it certainly wasn’t from truth at all. And yet it was a legitimate stereotype, one that held a lot of ideological power too.

    What I mean to say is that stereotypes have always existed at every point in time, in every geographical region, to every one of every age, and come about for a variety of reasons, but truth is never one of them. This is why it’s unrealistic and unfair to ask black women not to perpetuate the “Angry Black Woman” stereotype. Were the blacks of the 1800s supposed to prove that they weren’t stupid? Were the Jews of the 1940s supposed to prove that their supposed greed wasn’t causing Germany’s economic crisis? Were the U.S. citizens of 2001 supposed to prove that they weren’t trying to destroy the Muslim world? Not to mention, how were they supposed to accomplish these proofs?

    This is why there has been such an intense reaction to your suggestion that black women should simply stop perpetuating the “Angry Black Woman” stereotype. I know many black women and yes, they are angry, but they are also joyful and funny and troubled and concerned and loving, as are white women, as are Asian women, as are Native women, as are Latina women, as are Arab women, as am I, as are you. Would you have them just cut anger out of their emotional repertoire? Regardless of whether or not they could, why should they have to? Would you have them be angry less? But every individual is his/her own person and how could anyone arbitrate when anger is appropriate in someone else’s life?

    Originally, I wasn’t going to write either this or my last comment. I wasn’t going to because I didn’t want to seen as another irrational, emotional woman of colour; but I ended up writing them because why shouldn’t I say what I think and feel? Because I’m a woman of colour and should worry about the connections between people’s view of me and their view of WoC as a monolithic group? Please don’t ask that of me, please don’t ask that of RVCBard, and please don’t ask that of other individuals of colour.

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  33. OneSTDV-
    Everything that you said here made me want to kill myself. I mean, you understand that stereotypes are perpetuated by the media, right? And that when people internalize stereotypes about other people, they tend to project them onto people even when the inverse of that stereotype is right in front of their faces?

    I mean, have you ever even met an Asian or a black person? It doesn't sound like you have, since it's not like my friends sit in a circle, with the Asians being angry and the black women being angry. Although people stereotyping me, holding steadfast to those stereotypes, and refusing to even consider that you are wrong does make me angry.

    And no, the stereotypes did not arise out of thin air, but they did arise out of the white hegemony that stands to gain everything by perpetuating negative ideas about people of color.

    Also,

    Other data released last month showed the percentage of unwed mothers differs from race to race. While 28 percent of white women gave birth out of wedlock in 2007, nearly 72 percent of black women and more than 51 percent of Latinas did.

    That doesn't in any way mean that black women are having children with multiple fathers, all it means is that they are having children without being married. You are aware that someone can also get pregnant by someone other than her husband too, right?

    Liriel, your story reminds me of someone (a white guy) I used to be good friends with. He had a habit of dating Chinese women with whom he had nothing in common, then whining to me about the problems in the relationship (which I told him they were his own damn fault.)

    Anyway, he has mentioned SOOO MANY times that he will "probably end up married to a Chinese woman" that I know he wants to and that he's not just speculating about a possibility, and keeps picking partners based on the fact that they're Chinese rather than any kind of real basis for a relationship.

    Anyway, we were having a heated argument about rape, during which I said "Anyone who has sex with a totally unresponsive partner is an asshole at the very best" to which he said "You've obviously never had sex with a Chinese girl."

    At this point, I felt like this bucket of yuck had been dumped on me, as fromthetropics put it, and my opinion of him completely changed after that moment. How telling that he attributes this characteristic to all Chinese women being unresponsive in the bedroom (even though, he is really the common factor, but I digress.)

    If that's not racialized sexism, sexualized racism, or some combination of the two, I don't know what is. Ugh.

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  34. @Anya Harrington – Those men you describe sound like disgusting SCUMBAGS.

    Which brings me to my point – I took awhile to comment as I was trying to digest the term racialized sexism. It’s great to hear others’ views and experiences. But reading the comments, I feel as though neither the term racism nor sexism nor any combination of the two does justice to that ‘yuck’ feeling. Only ‘scumbag-ism’ comes remotely close. It’s a relief to hear that others agree that ‘prostitution’ is not too strong a word (so I can stop feeling guilty for thinking the word, and move on), but it’s also sad to hear.

    >I am curious--do you, or any other WOC, notice a difference...in *which* stereotypes white men versus white women tend to attack/attach to you?<

    Probably not. Except I've never experienced the 'you whore' type stereotype from white women, though I'm sure others do.

    @OneSTD – So, if Jillian almost got raped because her fellow white women were perpetuating the ‘loose, easy white women’ stereotype, then she really shouldn’t blame the men who harassed her and tried to rape her for their sexist criminal behavior, but instead blame her fellow white women? Is that what you’re saying? You sound like you’re giving a free pass to people who are being racist and sexist (and even rapists). But that’s not what you wanted to do…or is it?

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  35. @OneSDTV

    Seriously, you just make me sick. I guess folks like you is where the ignorant, redneck white folk stereotype comes from.

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  36. >"You've obviously never had sex with a Chinese girl."

    ewwwwwwww. I read that line and my jaw dropped in disbelief and a puddle of ewwww. I didn't even really know what I was reacting to, just a gut reaction. It took a few seconds to get my thoughts together and figure out why I had such a strong reaction. Doesn't it occur to him that maybe he's just boring in the bedroom or that his laziness is creating such responses? I mean, if that's his attitude (and he's going around telling other women), well, I'm SURE it shows up in the bedroom too! How are they supposed to feel comfortable with him? Uh, DUH! Sheeeeeshhhhhh. Uggghhhh.

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  37. What the hell. "Scumbag-ism" indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  38. @OneSTDV - Marci's comment on a recent post shows how the Angry Black Woman stereotype works: http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/10/ask-black-men-wearing-dreads-for-weed.html?showComment=1255616256638 (Comment dated: October 15, 2009 1:09 AM)

    Scenario: She is a black woman and gets mistaken as a drug dealer. It's not the first time it has happened. The person approaching her invades her personal space because they get too close while trying to ask her for weed in broad daylight. She gets upset (understandably) and tells them off in an aggressive manner.

    Now, a person who doesn't stereotype will think: "Oops, I did a boo boo, that's why she is angry." But a person who believes in stereotypes AND has an inability to judge people as individuals or accept that they've made a mistake will think: "What's wrong with her? Why are *black* women always so angry and aggressive?" And thus they will erroneously *think* Marci has confirmed their stereotype of the Angry Black Women even though she had a very good reason to be angry. Stereotypes can be self fulfilling prophecies.

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  39. You notice how OneSTDV has white women as the normal and everything that is different deviates from that normal. Which is why she has black women as overly aggressive, Asian women being overly passive and white women in the middle as normal.

    If I construct myself as the normal then everyone who is not me will be abnormal. See I can do it too, SMH!

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  40. I'm sad that this is where this conversation has ended up. And it raises some questions for me about how this blog works and how those of us who want a productive conversation should respond to attempts to derail.

    Here's what I see happening on this comment thread: A productive conversation begins. OneSTDV interrupts and attempts to derail but is mostly ignored. Productive conversation continues. OneSTDV interrupts again and succeeds in derailing the conversation for the most part.

    Questions:
    1. Could you help me understand, Macon D., why you published the comments of One STDV, when they seem to largely go over old ground and appear (at least to me) to have the intent to derail?

    2. If comments like OneSTDV's will be published here, is it better for those of us who want a productive conversation simply to ignore such comments? (But if so, why include comments in the first place?)

    I don't mean to be critical. Just a bit frustrated and trying to figure out to keep the next post by RVCBard (and I do hope that there will be one) from descending into irony...

    Thanks.

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  41. Julia wrote,

    Questions:

    1. Could you help me understand, Macon D., why you published the comments of One STDV, when they seem to largely go over old ground and appear (at least to me) to have the intent to derail?

    2. If comments like OneSTDV's will be published here, is it better for those of us who want a productive conversation simply to ignore such comments? (But if so, why include comments in the first place?)


    I share this frustration, Julia. I didn't think OneSTDV's comments were intended to derail -- they seemed sincere. It's my experience in the year and a half or so that I've been doing this blog that some new commenters have to go over some of that "old ground" before they can get to where others already are. If they really are sincere, they sometimes stick around for awhile, and eventually reach a deeper understanding. I hope this blog about stuff white people do will reach some of the white people who do those things -- I think it would do less good if it became a place that only allows clearly advanced anti-racists to leave comments.

    That said, I do disallow many comments, especially those that personally attack other commenters, those that are completely off topic, and those that snarl and spit from an obviously, overtly white supremacist perspective. Also, when a thread is veering too far off topic, I sometimes try to get it back on track (as I did with a comment above). But then, other commenters sometimes continue with the topic anyway, and yeah, the derailing continues.

    I don't know what the solution is, except to be even more careful myself about allowing potentially derailing comments, and as you suggested, to ask -- please! -- that other commenters try to stay on topic. That could mean, as you said, simply ignoring potentially derailing comments, or else checking to see if someone else has already said in reply what you're about to say in reply. So, you asked, why even allow such comments in the first place? Again, as I said, I hope the original commenter is commenting sincerely, and will be encouraged to stick around and learn something by being allowed to comment. (And finally, I feel like I should add that I think we all still need to learn something or other about these things, even if it's just how best to respond to such "old ground" or "newbie" input.)

    ReplyDelete
  42. Thank you, Macon, for this answer. I have trouble sometimes discerning the sincere from the insincere, so I will defer to your judgment and, in the future, respond to these ambiguous (to me) comments as if they are sincere or not respond at all. (I fully admit to being a part of the derailing in this thread.)

    It's very helpful to me to know that you are publishing only comments that you believe to be sincere.

    And I'm sure that you're right that there is always more to learn.

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  43. Macon,

    But that sort of puts people who are with it in a bind. Despite their clueless sincerity, it's still demeaning to read the ignorance of people who clearly don't want to understand. For all the teachable moments this could possibly lead to, it still costs POCs to have to deal with the same old shit even in a place where the point is to critically examine habitual White attitudes and behaviors and discover ways of undoing them.

    It would be nice to have the comments focus on the topic at hand instead of derailing conversation to focus on the ignorance of random comments, which is more Stuff White People Do. Again, I have to point out the irony about this since insisting on occupying center stage is something you wrote about before.

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  44. But that sort of puts people who are with it in a bind. Despite their clueless sincerity, it's still demeaning to read the ignorance of people who clearly don't want to understand.

    Yes, I can see that, even if I can't know just what it's like, since I'm white. I'll definitely try harder to keep the feelings of non-white guest posters in mind, and thanks for the ABW post, good to read that again. I also agree that the common white tendency of thrusting oneself onto centerstage (especially by saying "but it happens to me too!") comes up again and again here -- so in the future, when it does, I'll try to jump in with my own comment more quickly to say something like "hey white folks, that may be true, but the racism being discussed here isn't about you, so back off with that," point them to that section of Derailing for Dummies and/or that post of mine that you linked to, and so on. I'm dismayed that I'm not doing enough yet in the blocking of comments to account for the feelings of POC, but I promise to keep working on it.

    I often see how feelings of POC tend to be disregarded by whites in such discussions (and how that happens differently to different sorts of POC). That's why I brought up feelings of POC in a comment in response to your first guest post here -- to point out to apparently white commenters that they were stepping on emotional toes (or "shitting on shoes," as ABW nicely puts it), and, I hoped, to get some POC to explain for white commenters how that feels, if they were willing. All of that led to the post on white people who listen poorly during such discussions. All of which is to say, I have been trying to bring these issues upfront for white readers who aren't yet with it, and yes, I will work more with them in the comments, and maybe in future posts as well.

    I will say (though not in my defense -- more to explain how I'm trying to address these problems as a comment moderator) that when I mentioned apparent sincerity above as a criterion for passable comments, I didn't mean just any kind of sincerity (hence the rejected comments from apparent white supremacists). If people seem sincere about trying to understand, I'm inclined to let their comments through, as long as they don't clearly derail in the ways I described above. If they keep acting obstinate, I usually cut off their future comments -- but yeah, again, I'll be more vigilant about that with future guest posts by POC.

    But then, it's not just the feelings of POC guest-posters you're talking about, I gather:

    For all the teachable moments this could possibly lead to, it still costs POCs to have to deal with the same old shit even in a place where the point is to critically examine habitual White attitudes and behaviors and discover ways of undoing them.

    Yes. Not to disagree, but (you know how much us white folks love our buts!), I'm trying to undo habitual White attitudes and behaviors too, in the posts themselves, which I post and write in the hopes that a lot of BOTH non-white and white people will read them, and in the comment sections, where I hope white people unfamiliar with thinking about their whiteness, and/or with taking part in racial dialogues, will jump in. So for now, it seems to me that letting some of that through, until it gets too derailing, seems like a good idea.

    Is there anything in particular that you could suggest I do with questionable comments?

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  45. Macon,

    I see the value in trying to educate white people who are new to talking about race, but at the same time, the same questions and comments get made on every single post. Every post has a "are you sure this is racism and not just X?" comment, if not several. Seriously, all these people have to do is read ANY previous post and I think it would save a lot of the questioning attitudes people have toward the PoC who have been kind and generous enough to talk in a forum where they know they are going to be disregarded and taxed emotionally.

    Do you need a FAQ?

    I might also suggest that there is a difference when it is a post you make, and this kind of dismissive questioning is not being directed at an individual person? Again, most of the things we discuss here don't make me feel like anyone is questioning or dismissing me, so if any of you don't feel like there's a difference, please jump in and correct me. But I think there might be a certain heightened level of respect for the guest posters who get up there and lay bare details of their personal experiences compared to when you or another white person who might be talking about things that affect you more indirectly (or not at all) post.

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  46. Yes, thank you Pistolina, an FAQ is a good idea. I don't know where to put on in Blogger, but I could just make it a post, and then send the sorts of commenters we're talking about to it.

    But I think there might be a certain heightened level of respect for the guest posters who get up there and lay bare details of their personal experiences compared to when you or another white person who might be talking about things that affect you more indirectly (or not at all) post.

    Respect from . . . ? If you mean from readers, no, I see LESS respect for guest posters from the kinds of commenters we're talking about here. It's that common white tendency to question the knowledge and authority of non-white people. Again. But if you mean that guest posters deserve more respect in these matters from me as a moderator of comments than I grant myself in the comment moderation for my own posts, then yes, I agree (not that I don't respect myself, but I trust you can see what I'm getting at).

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  47. Dear Blog Host:

    "Not to disagree, but (you know how much us white folks love our buts!), I'm trying to undo habitual White attitudes and behaviors too, in the posts themselves, which I post and write in the hopes that a lot of BOTH non-white and white people will read them, and in the comment sections, where I hope white people unfamiliar with thinking about their whiteness, and/or with taking part in racial dialogues, will jump in."

    So what you're *still* saying is:
    "It doesn't matter to me how much pain POC go through -- guest posters, regular commenters, new readers, or lurkers -- as long as the WHITE FOLKS learn something."

    Good to know.

    As to adjudging whether or not your OneSTDV commenter -- whom I would love to nickname OneSTD since his attitude is just that odious -- was sincere?

    This may help you:
    www.derailingfordummies.com

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  48. Actually, my bad.

    Catching up on my reading here, I see that you're already familiar with "Derailing for Dummies".

    So instead, for an additional characterization of what OneSTD was doing, permit me to quote you back to yourself:

    "That in itself is a common white tendency -- to demand further evidence of racism, rather than crediting a person who's clearly experienced many instances of said form of racism with an experienced and informed perspective."

    Now look at OneSTD's comments here.
    See anything familiar?

    ReplyDelete
  49. ru wrote,

    So what you're *still* saying is:
    "It doesn't matter to me how much pain POC go through -- guest posters, regular commenters, new readers, or lurkers -- as long as the WHITE FOLKS learn something."

    Good to know.


    Even though that's what you're hearing, that's not what I'm trying to say. Note that in what you quoted from me, I wrote, "I'm trying to undo habitual White attitudes and behaviors too . . . " That's "too," as in "also" -- I'm trying to balance these things. And if you read the above comments more closely, and this blog in general, you'd very likely gather that when it comes to racism, a primary motivation here for me is concern for the feelings of POC, as well as for the injustice and misery they often suffer because of ongoing, de facto white supremacy.

    Now look at OneSTD's comments here.
    See anything familiar?


    Yes, of course I do. Again, please read my comments in this thread, and the other threads in question -- if you do, I think you'll gather that I already know what you're pointing out to me in your analysis of that person's comments. At any rate, thank you for your time and effort.

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  50. Thanks guys for the discussion about derailing. Heck, I didn’t realize I was getting distracted from focusing on some really good points being made by others and helping derail my own post. Anyway, now back to the topic.

    --I daresay that your partner’s friends who see you as an Indonesian woman rather than a person would, if it didn’t work out, likely say (or at least think) “Well, he can just get another one,” rather than appreciate the significance of your impact on his life as an individual.--

    Wow. Yeah, Liriel, that’s a good way to put it. Makes a lot of sense.

    --It devalues WoC and interprets our “otherness” as “asking for it” so that it is socially acceptable for our bodies to be seen as the playgrounds and our persons as the playthings of white men.--

    I wonder if that applies to white women who go abroad, like Jillian.

    Interestingly, I’ve also experienced the same stereotype applied in the opposite way. There’s been a few occasions when I needed to talk to single white men in Indonesia due to my work. There was one who I even disliked because he stereotypes pocs a lot. But on a couple of occasions, when I approached them, somehow they reacted to me as though I was just another Indonesian woman looking for a white guy (even when I disliked the guy!). That was annoying, though there was no strong yuck feeling involved, phew. Perhaps this is what’s called ‘gendered racism’ – viewing the Other through a stereotyped lens specific to the gender of that person?

    @Jillian – the story about the near rape is horrible. And the bad news is, it’s not an Arab thing, or a Middle Eastern thing. It happens in China too, and Indonesia. It’s ridiculous how widespread it is. I heard of a Korean exchange student to Indonesia who left without completing her studies because of a very similar experience to yours. Obviously she was traumatized. This is why I do not walk around alone even in my own neighborhood in broad daylight. Not because it’s a religious requirement, but it’s simply neither safe nor pleasing on the ears. (Once you know how to avoid it, you can live harassment free most of the time, at least in Indonesia.) I’m sure it happens more to foreign women because they seem that much more ‘Other’ (objectified), stand out more, and perhaps seem more unsuspecting (e.g. local women know which areas to avoid – many of us are made aware of this through unpleasant experiences from a young age).

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  51. (cont'd) Also, Jillian’s story has reminded me of another type of gendered racism that I just had to vent about and get out of my system. Depending on how the story about sexual harassment in developing countries is shared, most of the time I have nothing but sympathy or concern for the foreigner, but at other times it feels deeply insulting. Here’s a story where it was insulting (racist). A white guy had heard about the sexual harassment that happens in Indonesia because his brother had lived there as an exchange student. He mocked Indonesians for this. So I countered, “But many men would be doing the same in Australia if laws against sexual harassment weren’t so tough.” (Note: Most other countries don’t have rule of law.) He responded with a laugh saying, “Uh, no. We don’t do that here (in Australia) because we’re more respectful of women.” Suddenly he brought to naught a few decades worth of work by feminists in Western countries. Suddenly white or Western men are simply more virtuous than other men because they just are. It’s in their genes or something, or so he seemed to think. Suddenly Indonesian men are assumed to be generally morally lower than Australian men. Never mind the fact that most of the Indonesian men I meet are respectful of women. In his eyes Indonesians are simply morally lower and laughable. Ugh. Again, this is ‘gendered racism’ yes?

    --So maybe terms like "sexualized racism" or "racialized sexism" can only be applied when talking about who aren't at an intersection of race and gender, as odd as that seems.--

    Interesting. Bluey512, I think I get what you mean. As in, when it’s someone at the intersection, they experience it much more strongly, is that right?

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  52. @fromthetropics

    Thank you. And just to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to imply that this is unique or specific to Arab/Muslim countries; I used those terms to explain the country I was in without naming it (and having traveled a lot in the region and had wildly varying experiences from country to country, I know that it's not the same across the board).

    "--It devalues WoC and interprets our “otherness” as “asking for it” so that it is socially acceptable for our bodies to be seen as the playgrounds and our persons as the playthings of white men.--"

    I think that does and can apply to white women in foreign countries. Of course, there are all kinds of white women who go abroad, and there are plenty who do so with racist attitudes of their own. But I do believe that their experiences (my experience) can be called racialized sexism (though not sexualized racism).

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  53. "As in, when it’s someone at the intersection, they experience it much more strongly, is that right?"

    More strongly, and more equally.

    I'm not at all sure I'm right about this, I'm just trying to explore the terms. They both seem to imply that what's happening is primarily one thing, influenced by the other. So "racialized sexism" would be primarily sexism, but in kind of a racial way, and "sexualized racism" would be primarily racism, with overtones of sexism.

    Which term you use may depend on your perspective. For example, Jillian is calling her experiences with Arab men "racialized sexism." Perhaps this is because as a white woman from the US (I'm pretty sure?), she likely has much more experience with sexism than with racism. So perhaps these encounters with Arab men seem like more of the same to her... only with a racial aspect. (Jillian, does that sound accurate?)

    I noticed something very similar in my own immediate response to RVCBard's last post, actually. My tendency as a white woman was to view her example as a sexist event, at least in part because if I had been in her shoes, that's exactly what it would have been. I found it was extremely easy to imagine the issue as primarily sexism, with some racism involved because she's black, but still primarily sexism, although of course that's not how she herself defined it.

    I can certainly see how, if you get a full dose of both racism and sexism, or if they intermingle to form something else, you might not have a practical use for either term.

    Or maybe you could tie the terms to the intent of the perpetrator of racism/sexism. But that's hard to do, because telepathy is in short supply.

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  54. @bluey512 -

    Yes, I see it as more of the same, but with a bit of a racial (not racist) twist. It IS racial, because I know that I experience worse treatment for being white, or foreign, or American, but it's not racist, because for most intents and purposes, I have privilege just by being in the country I'm in (I do have some feelings about the level of privilege a young, non-wealthy white woman really has in say, a very wealthy and patriarchical country like Saudi Arabia, but that's another can of worms).

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  55. Jillian, that's a good distinction to make. I suppose that's another reason you couldn't say your experience was "sexualized racism" - unless, I suppose, you were using the term "racism" in that sort of colloquial, non-sociological way that just means "biased racially."

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  56. >And just to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to imply that this is unique or specific to Arab/Muslim countries

    @Jillian - Gotcha. (Not to worry. Coz the guy I described made *at least* 2 other racially prejudiced comments in the 3 days or so that I knew him, so...yeah, I think he may have some subconscious habit of doing so, since I wouldn't describe him as 'racist' by any stretch.)

    >More strongly, and more equally.

    @bluey512 - That (and the ensuing explanation) makes a LOT of sense to me.

    Btw, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone (macon, RVCBard, the commenters and readers) for 'laying it bare', as Pistolina said, with the stories you shared and letting me share. We didn't seem to get too far beyond 'scumbag-ism' and 'yuck', but I personally find the sharing of stories and discussion really helpful in 'de-yucking' the memories (which seems to be the best alternative to the impossibility of erasing them). Thank you.

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  57. fromthetropics -- sorry I missed your initial question! But I'm glad to see it has prompted this interesting discussion. I'm going back to read all of the comments now.

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  58. Restructure: yes, I think the term gendered racism makes sense. When I typed out "sexualized racism," I thought "ugh, that's not exactly what I mean," but I sort of blanked on how else to say it.

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  59. I'm not sure that there is a clear demarcation between gendered racism and racialized sexism -- I guess it's all a mish-mash and sometimes the balance tips more one way than the other. If I thought hard enough, I could probably think of examples where my gender or my race were clearly predominating the discrimination I was experiencing. But that's sort of besides the point. The point being: as a woman of color, I am always simultaneously a woman and a person of color, and am operating in a sphere that overlaps with but is not wholly contained by others who share just my race or just my gender.

    Others have talked about the mammy or whore dichotomy often encountered by black women. I can relate. I'm a mixed race woman of primarily black and Italian-American descent, and I often find that I am either invisible and not considered truly female, or I am hyper-sexualized and treated like purely a sex object. I think that the stereotypes of black women (or whatever race people perceive me to be based on my appearance) affect the sexism that I experience such that it is clearly distinct from the sexism experienced by white women. In this way, it is racialized sexism.

    I would say that the predominant feeling I get from white men is that they do not really view me as a woman. If I may share some thoughts I blogged on this very topic:

    Sometimes I feel like an invisible woman. It has been clear to me since childhood that I do not fit the ideal of white beauty upheld in this country. I am too dark. My hair is too curly, too big. I am too fat. My nose is too big. And that's alright, because how many women fit that ideal anyway? But in the eyes of some (white) men, it is clear that I am not only not the ideal women, but perhaps not a woman at all. I feel this most acutely in my very white neighborhood. I feel it when I am walking down my street and am pushed off the sidewalk because others refuse to share their space with me. I feel it as eyes pass over me and through me and rest on every other woman in the room. I feel it when my neighbors ignore me, and when my friends talk about hot women in front of me. I feel that they may see me as a person, but never as a woman. I am not a potential girlfriend, date, or mate. My friends and classmates treat me differently than the average Joe on the street, I think because they have the opportunity to know me as a person. In this way we can become friends, and they can even flirt with me. But they will never go beyond that. They would be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me. I should be asexual, after all. I am a woman of color, in many of their eyes, a black woman. And well, when have black women ever been the prize?

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  60. I would say that the predominant feeling I get from white men is that they do not really view me as a woman.

    Exactly.

    I feel this most acutely in my very white neighborhood. I feel it when I am walking down my street and am pushed off the sidewalk because others refuse to share their space with me.

    You get this too?

    I feel it as eyes pass over me and through me and rest on every other woman in the room. I feel it when my neighbors ignore me, and when my friends talk about hot women in front of me. I feel that they may see me as a person, but never as a woman. I am not a potential girlfriend, date, or mate.

    I get hit on by older men when I get hit on at all. I also seem to be a psycho magnet.

    My friends and classmates treat me differently than the average Joe on the street, I think because they have the opportunity to know me as a person. In this way we can become friends, and they can even flirt with me. But they will never go beyond that. They would be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me. I should be asexual, after all.

    I'm fortunate in that I'm attracted to several genders, but that doesn't make it easier.

    I am a woman of color, in many of their eyes, a black woman. And well, when have black women ever been the prize?

    Only in the new Star Trek movie and the Merlin series. But the backlash against those women was fucking harsh.

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  61. I've never dealt with the mammy situation. Yet, as a teacher, I'm sure it's come up subconsciously as though I'm just a natural with children or teens.

    Whereas, the whore perception I've seen and dealt with a lot . As a fair-complected black woman, I'm approached frequently by men of all races, especially white, Hispanic, and black. I'm deemed safely approachable (according to the Western standard of beauty) and thus, I'm sexually approachable. I've dealt with crazy comments from some men wanting to know what it's like to sleep with a black woman and whether or not my lighter-complexion will make a difference or not *rolls eyes*.

    But, I don't know what's worse: the sexism felt by those in my racial background or those outside of my racial background.

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  62. Perhaps you should be peeved at your fellow black females who perpetuate this stereotype, not the white males who simply notice its' prevalence.

    So because some perpetuate a stereotype, I am supposed to combat this stereotype. I don't expect white people to account for all the "trash" out there in their racial group, why should I?

    You are using Maury to reflect all black people. I can't even talk rationally to you. I don't use "My Big Redneck Wedding" on CMT to reflect all white people.


    ---------------

    I felt disgusted because he didn't see me as a woman but a "black" woman.

    I had this growing up the majority of my life, I was either asexual or some weird experiment. I used to have men come up to me and think it was a pick up line to say "You're pretty for a black girl" or "I've never been with a black girl before" like I was supposed to drop my pants and get busy with these men because I was not the "normal" black they assumed black women are.

    Then you have the white women who feel you are their mammy. My husband's best friend is married to a woman like this. She always wants to confide in me and ask me to do stuff for her like we are friends. I don't even like her. I was with her at a mall, and I was playing with her daughter, she then said someone will mistake me as her nanny. I promptly gave her back her child and asked her do people after wonder if she is the nanny since the child is half hispanic and has dark hair, brown eyes, and tanned skin. Then there are the women who deem you less attractive than they are because they are white, and if a man, in particular a white man shows any interest in you, especially over them, they give you the cold shoulder or treat you as if you stole their man.

    -----------

    I remember vividly learning several years ago in a history class that it was legal for a white man to marry a black woman before it was legal for a white woman to marry a black man. It's a dynamic I still mull over, and at the time I thought, "Yuck."

    The case of Loving v. Virginia was about a black woman and white man, but it wasn't legal necessarily for white men and black women to marry prior to that. It was just a common knowledge that white men could do whatever they wanted to black women and there was no recourse. Anti-miscegenation laws were enacted to keep white men away from black women, not black men away from white women. Back then lineage was attributed to the father, not the mother, so white men having sex with a black woman and producing offspring could create more "freed" people than vice versa. The laws were later changed to fix this so that lineage was attributed to the mother rather than the father.

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  63. It seems white men consider Asian women potential romantic partners (as was also observed in the "date Asian women more than Asian men" thread), but not black women.

    This is true for the most part, the majority of white men who approached me were not looking for relationships, but rather sexual experiences.

    ----------

    You're honestly going to assert that the "angry woman" is just as prevalent amongst white women as amongst black women?!?!? Come on.

    Yes I've met many angry white women. Their anger might stem from a different place than "black women anger", but it is still there and exists. Of course you used the Maury show to prove black women are crazy psychos. Again I can't take that seriously.

    So what I'm hearing is that the Angry Black Woman stereotype just arose out of the air and has absolutely no truth value whatsoever?

    No the media has helped reflect that by limiting black people to certain roles. There is no truth in the stereotype though.

    Maybe you're right. I guess the stereotype of the black single woman with loads of children by different fathers is wrong too.

    Yes it is. If I were to look at my family, the majority of black women were married with kids and only had one "baby daddy", and he was usually their husband.

    ------------

    Well, since all groups except straight white christian males are "oppressed", does that mean that straight white christian males are the only ones who can ever be held responsible for anything?

    What does oppression have to do with being held responsible. You can be oppressed and follow the law, go to work, raise your family, and pay taxes. The point you are bringing up has nothing to do with anything, maybe you are stereotyping.

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  64. To RVCBard and thesciencegirl:

    I'm a longtime lurker, coming briefly out of hiding to say: Thank you thank you thank you for these last two comments. As a black woman who has always lived with and been friends with mostly white people, I resonate fully with your remarks, with the experience of having eyes not see me, being pushed off the sidewalk, desexualized or hypersexualized. Your words have broken through my loneliness, reassured me that I'm not imagining it, and framed the issue in a way that gives me some measure of peace.

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  65. Wait, what? Y'all get pushed off sidewalks? Seriously?

    Also, yeah, I reconsidered the word "romantic" the minute I hit Publish, but it was a bit late to change it then.

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  66. I promptly gave her back her child and asked her do people after wonder if she is the nanny since the child is half hispanic and has dark hair, brown eyes, and tanned skin.

    This brings up an aspect of colorism/racism that I see happening on both sides, living in a very culturally diverse place.

    I notice that when black or darker-skinned women have white or much lighter-skinned children, people assume that the woman is the nanny. Conversely, when a lighter-skinned or white woman has a black or darker-skinned child, people assume the child is adopted.

    My mother is much darker-skinned than I am and has tightly-curled black hair. When I was a little kid, this happened on occasion: people would assume she was being paid to watch me, and not my mother.

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  67. I'm a black woman and do not care what people think of my "personality". Personality can be controlled, race cannot. Do I find most black women (from all over) to be angry and bitchy? Yes. Do I find most white women to be condescending and bitchy? Yes. Do I find most Asian women to be condescending, colorist and bitchy? Yes. I, do however seek out friendships with women of all races with decent personalities; they do exist. That, however doesn't negate the fact that most women I interact with from each race exhibit the negative characteristics I mentioned.

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  68. In white people's eyes Serena Williams is not just considered unattractive, but she is considered abhorrent. White males liken her to either a man- or a primate. White males can’t relate to her because of her skin tone- and her physique. (butt way too big) Michelle Obama has suffered the same critiques. It doesn't matter what Serena wears on the court- or how many tournaments she wins. It doesn't matter how graceful/intelligent Michelle is, she just doesn't measure up to white expectations.

    As a matter of fact every time Serena beats a thin, blond- delicate white female tennis player, white men get angry. A woman of color won the Miss America pageant recently and again...White males got angry. "why do I feel like I'm suddenly a minority in this country?? one asked. http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2010-01-30-miss-america_N.htm

    Miss America 2010 Wasn't All That in 2002
    http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/31/miss-america-2010-caressa-cameron-high-school-photo/
    Its amazing to me how hostile some whites have become to women of color. Not seeing them as fully human makes it easy for whites to liken them to monkeys or other non-human entities.

    The Huffington post was more blatant in its comparisons between white and black beauty:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/29/australian-open-hotties-w_n_430215.html
    Australian Open Hotties: Who's The Hottest Lady?
    Comments like these abound: She had a few black men in her corner yes, but the tide was overwhelmingly sided against her. “All the ladies, minus the Williams sisters, are pretty cute to very hot. The Williams girls look too much like Lebron James for my taste. I wish they could be more feminine athletes, but with guns and shoulders like that, i cant call either hot or cute.”

    Whites wonder why blacks are angry all the time. They don’t know what it’s like to be denied your humanity on a constant basis. One way whites found out was from the exercises of Jane Elliot. You want to see some white people get mad? Ohh boy! Only then do they get a taste of what it feels like to be deprived of your rights and your humanity every day of your life.

    http://newsreel.org/transcripts/essenblue.htm
    Look at how she was able to lower the self-esteem of grown folks by just pointing out a difference in the color of their eyes. When she did it to white children the ones affected had lower test scores and acted out violently. I saw it done on Oprah too, and the effects were the same. Intelligent grown-assed Whites questioned their worth based on the color of their eyes. Some got very very very angry and resentful towards the ones in power.

    Jane Elliot's A Class Divided
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCjDxAwfXV0
    By treating whites in the same manner whites treat blacks you can achieve the same esteem-lowering effect. When she said blue-eyed are smarter than brown-eyed people it got soo quiet in that class. Imagine years of stigmatizing skin color and how that might affect a people. Wouldn't they act out as well? Wouldn’t you be angry too? The white kids begin to internalize that belief. “He called me brown-eyes and I hit him in the gut!”

    Blue Eyed part 10 of 10
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krEydYiDC1E

    John Howard Griffin got a small taste of the black experience but he took the extreme road to get it.
    http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-black-like-me/themes.html
    "Griffin often speaks about the depression, loneliness, and anger that he felt while he was a black man. As his time wears on, he cannot stand the face that stares back at him in the mirror. Because of this skin, he cannot seek advancement. As an educated man who has all the right credentials, he can't even get a job as a bookkeeper. All doors are closed to him. The feeling of sickness and loneliness overwhelms him."

    Its a damn shame whites have to take such drastic measures just to empathize with black people.

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  69. M.Gibbson said:
    "In white peoples eyes Serena Williams is not just considered unattractive, But she is considered abhorrent.White males liken her to a man- or a primate".

    ESPN put her on their cover and she was in the Sports Illustrated swim suit issue.If she is as unattractive and abhorrent as you say she is perceived I'm not sure how she would end up modeling for magazines mostly read by White men.
    I do get what you are saying it's just that particular example didn't fit for me.I think she is attractive.

    Yes their is a double standard out their and your other examples were right on.White people are uncomfortable when POC are successful in life.I think this is presidents Obama's case.A lot of Democrats have "headed for the hills" as Obama mentioned in his State of the Union address and that's because a lot of Democrats in their mostly White districts are uncomfortable to come out and support what he needs to get passed.For some whites the idea of a Black man running things drives them bonkers.The truth that nobody wants to talk about is that were not in a "post racial era" and race is why nothing is getting done.Democrats have majority's in both house and senate and yes the Republicans are obstructionists but we don't need them to get this shit passed.I'm afraid to think that if Obama was white we'd have healthcare passed by now.

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  70. It’s a long time since anyone added to this discussion, so maybe no one visits here any more, but in case they do, here’s my two cents worth.

    I've been wondering about what thesciencegirl said, and RVCBard agreed with, about being overlooked and treated as asexual by white men. I suspect that the white men's problem is not with finding WoC/black women unattractive, but with having a racially stereotyped, paranoid view of black MEN. Think about it: are not all black men athletic, violent criminals with 12 inch penises who view 'their' women as their property? Well, who on any level can compete with that? No, the two things more effective than a cold shower are a) the thought of waking up dead and b) the thought of the woman making 'unfavorable comparisons'.

    To back my hunch: Exhibit A - the rapacious plantation owner. The average plantation owner seems to have had no problems with seeing black women as sexually attractive, while at the same time he did not have to worry (much) about revenge from black men because he (usually) had them under his power, and he did not have to worry about comparisons because he didn't care what the women thought anyway.

    In many ways I am making a hugely discouraging argument here, in that I am almost completely sidelining women in the equation, suggesting to black women that the case is worse than ‘disadvantage because of white perceptions of your race’ but rather ‘disadvantage because of white perceptions of the men of your race’. Like Feminism never happened. On the plus side, you probably are considered attractive by white men after all...and they do now care about your opinions on their size - yes, two hundred years of progress has brought us this far.

    Incidentally, I'm far from necessarily talking about conscious thoughts here, in case you are thinking "but the white guys I know don't think like this!" Rather I'm talking about deeply ingrained stereotypes and the gut instincts they provoke. Nor, I should make clear, am I saying only white men do this kind of math; I reckon most men of all races do it (and indeed women and other genders do an equivalent) but the prevailing culture and its fears and myths leads them to factor in different variables.

    Can anything be done? Well, the conscious can usually beat the subconscious, in a marathon if not in a sprint, so the situation is far from hopeless if enough education gets out there.

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