Monday, February 8, 2010

think of "hot" women as white women (take two)

I need to offer a white apology, or actually, a male one. I'll do my best not to offer instead mere apologetics.

Thanks to some patient swpd commenters, I now see that yesterday's post, in which I examined the whiteness of Super Bowl commercials, trivialized our patriarchal culture's sexist depictions of women as objectified targets for male conquest. I took some liberal observers of the "Guyland" depicted in these ads to task for overlooking the whiteness of the sexism they were decrying. However, as several readers took the time to point out in that post's comments, I ended up doing something like the reverse -- I lost sight of the real problem with these ads, by downplaying their rampant and ultimately dangerous sexism. My apologies to those who were offended and insulted by that post.

In the course of trying to focus on the unmarked, "hegemonic" whiteness of sexist Super Bowl ads, I failed to keep an eye on both forms of power at work -- both racism and sexism; both whiteness and masculinity. I especially erred by implying, despite several disclaimers in the post to the contrary, that women of color should be upset that they rarely appear in sexist beer ads, and also by tying that to self-esteem issues struggled with by black women.

fromthetropics offered the most clarifying correction in this comment:

This is an example where the intersection of race and gender is more complicated than it appears.

What we have here is male desire for women. This is obvious. Specifically, white male desire for white women. This is also obvious. But it is not merely a desire, it is a desire to (sexually) conquer and subjugate (white) women (in order to appear masculine). Still obvious.

What is less obvious is that it invites all men to express their masculinity by conquering, so to speak, white women. Conquering WOC is easy. But to conquer white women? – now that’s the pinnacle of masculinity for all men in a white dominated society. The emphasis is on masculinity and men. It is not about women striving to be on top of the food chain, hence it is not about whether or not WOC feel as though their beauty is being (de)valued. It is about the male struggle to be at the top of the food chain, and whether or not their masculinity is being (de)valued.

Hence, all women lose out in such portrayals of ‘beauty’ (read: sexual objectification). So, to emphasize that these ads are dismissive of non-white female beauty, I think, misses the point by far. The emphasis, I repeat, should be on the racism inherent in what is defined as masculine, and not feminine. Otherwise, you’re playing racism against sexism, and we all lose out.


I see now that I should have emphasized objectifying, conquering white masculinity in these ads, instead of pervasive white, and excluded non-white, femininity. The objectification promulgated in "Guyland" trivializes all women, and it helps to endanger them as well, by encouraging men to think of them as sexual targets and conquests. Ironically, my post seems to have done the same, by implying, despite its disclaimers to the contrary, that all women, whether they're white or not, should envy the women depicted in Super Bowl ads, for being thought of as "hot." I didn't set out believing that, but I can see now how I ended up implying it, and how I overlooked as well the more deserving target of critique.

As Rosa wrote in a comment to that post,

By trying to separate sexism from racism here, you're doing neither justice. Trying to take them both on in the way you've done, juxtaposing self-esteem issues of black girls growing up in a racist society with the racism and sexism inherent in Superbowl advertisements, is just wrong-headed.

My thanks again to those who took the time to point out what I was overlooking and what I was egregiously implying, especially fromthetropics, Rosa, and honeybrown1976.

64 comments:

  1. More evidence to what I've always been saying: Antiracism, feminism, and anti-colonialism are all part of a package deal.

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  2. good thing we got this thing cleared up lol the last post did feel kind of awkward.

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  3. Kudos to the astute commenters who patiently pointed out the faulty focus in the first post and to macon for not following the standard white male MO of doubling down on the original error and getting all defensive. I think this exchange models how we can make progress by communicating in a straightforward manner.

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  4. Wow. Thanks Macon. that was quick. So quick I now feel a little silly about all the capitalization in the other thread. But anyway.

    I feel more comfortable talking about racism now that that's been "cleared up". The racism involving women in this case may appear in white dominated societies in the form of devaluing women of color (WOC) even more than white women. e.g. We can disrespect white women, but at least we'll let them get on tv. As for WOC, they can forget about TV and we can disrespect them even more. I think this is where the mammy/whore stereotype of black women come in.

    It can also appear in the form of: Let's go to all those Asian countries and buy them (WOC) for real cheap. Who cares about them anyway?

    And also in this form: White women who go overseas to non-white dominated societies get sexually harassed a lot. (This is probably in part due to how whiteness dominates the heavily exported American media, as well as simply that it's easier for people (of all colors) to objectify someone who seems very different from them irrespective of whiteness.)

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  5. This post I remember reading (which may have been linked here, apologies if so) does a good job of addressing some of what you're getting at. It shows how both sexism and racism play a part in the objectification of women, and that simply addressing one misses the point.

    http://nerdsevolving.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-black-women-were-white-women.html

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  6. Like your style.

    The ads were misogynist more so toward white women, who were portrayed as basically nagging b*tches who could be dropped off like so much chattel for savages to have, over a set of tyres. Nice.

    http://christopher-king.blogspot.com/2010/02/kingcast-on-multi-task-watching.html

    And the one black woman who was hot, her son gave the suitor the smack-down face to face, interesting.....

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  7. I think further analyzing this post brings up an interesting dichotomy.

    I think WOCs can all agree that we want to be desired, but appropriately so. We don't want to be objectified as, ironically enough, we already are but the way our society has decided to designate who is desired is to objectify them. And yet, WOC are objectified without being desired (per mainstream standards). Quite an interesting thing.

    As The Chemist points out, this is -- especially in this discussion -- where these things meet and become a package deal. To work through one is to work through all of them and I believe that to be at the crux of our issue. Understanding that fact and deconstructing this with that knowledge.

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  8. A. Smith, you said:

    "I think WOCs can all agree that we want to be desired, but appropriately so. We don't want to be objectified as, ironically enough, we already are but the way our society has decided to designate who is desired is to objectify them. And yet, WOC are objectified without being desired (per mainstream standards). Quite an interesting thing."

    YES. Yes to all of this. So often as a WOC, I feel that I am either ignored or objectified as a merely sexual object (not as, say, a potential girlfriend or wife).

    I know I'm not the only WOC who has listened to white male friends talk about "hot" women, only to feel anger at their sexism for the topic and tone of conversation, and their racism for the narrow definition of what they consider attractive.

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  9. @ A. Smith & thesciencegirl--

    Co-sign.

    Been there, done all kinds of that:

    http://ankhesen-mie.livejournal.com/24569.html
    http://ankhesen-mie.livejournal.com/25915.html

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  10. I'm not sure this meshes with my personal experience. I have always been under the impression that males prefer WOC, which many of them express explicitly. I've heard over and over about how hot Asian and Latino and Black women are. Maybe what is more relevant is that it's more common for a man to say "I like Asian women" than it is to say "I like white women"? That is, the difference in the WAY white women or WOC are "preferred".

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  11. Well.

    If you're still interested in exploring the space where racism and sexism intersect:

    I'm about halfway through a documentary called "America the Beautiful" (Netflix insta-watch). About 55 minutes in, I had to stop the film and take a walk because a doctor (yes, a white male) tries to make a black woman "more attractive" by using makeup to make her skin five shades lighter. When the woman protests and angrily walks out, the doctor responds by calling her a loser, uneducated, a "closed minded" woman who "dwells on her pain." When the film maker responds that she may have had a hard life because she is a dark skinned woman in a racist society, the doctor scoffs, "She was never a slave."

    PHHHWWWWWHHHH.

    Anyway, I'm still not sure where you want to take this topic, or what the point of the original topic really was. (I suspect it was an attempt to be relevant because it was posted on Superbowl Sunday.) So despite the title of the post, was the point that advertising is racist? We live in a racist society: Damn near everything in it is racist.

    As far as A. Smith's statement: "I think WOCs can all agree that we want to be desired, but appropriately so."

    No. I agree with many of the points that you are making, but on this matter, please recognize that you only speak for yourself. What do I, a WOC, want? I want to be respected. I want access to education. I want to be paid 100 cents for every dollar I earn. I want to be loved for who and what I am. I want a lot of things.

    Do I want to be "desired," however "appropriately" in/by a racist society? No. That is not a concern for me.

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  12. Rosa asked,

    So despite the title of the post, was the point that advertising is racist? We live in a racist society: Damn near everything in it is racist.

    The point was to ask what it means when writers at a liberal web site leave unmarked whiteness unmarked, and what could happen to their analysis of sexist advertising if they do mark it. I think fromthetropics went a long way toward showing how that could deepen analysis of white masculine misogyny.

    Thanks for the movie tip; it does sound worth exploring. Is this it?

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  13. http://jezebel.com/5467010/debate-over-vanity-fair-cover-takes-uglier-turn

    Exhibit A?

    :-(

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  14. @ kat,

    http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/beauty/vanity-fairs-quot-new-hollywood-quot-issue-completely-lacks-diversity-578862/?pg=1#comments

    Aren't the comments sickening? I bet most of these people didn't see anything wrong with Christ Matthews talkin' about a post-racial America. WHATEVER.

    'These are all talented women who just HAPPEN to be white. There is nothing wrong with that! We can't blame vanity fair if there are no WOC who arent talented theze dayz!111!!'

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  15. plastiknoise said...
    “These are all talented women who just HAPPEN to be white. There is nothing wrong with that! We can't blame vanity fair if there are no WOC who arent talented theze dayz!111!!'”

    I think another way of looking at it is, “they aren't looking for talented women of color either.” Whites seem to know where to go to find stories that fit their narrow view of blacks. Its easy to find the bad side of black for whites; it’s harder to find and acknowledge the good in minorities. As long as whites continue to ignore us and exclude us from stories like this there will be a need for Jet, Essence, Ebony magazine; Legacy Black Enterprise and many others. Some Whites have so associated themselves with good- so clothed themselves under the veil of normalcy nothing else will do. Some whites by default don't readily assume blacks do volunteer work- charity work, wonderful things in schools and communities. (Those people are too busy shooting each other) Whites who were raised and live in a white world are afflicted with what I call "White-Think."

    The default color for anything is white; whether it be actors, starlets- football stars or coaches. War heroes, patriots- models revered Christian figures; examples of fine living, they're all white. Why look any place else when whites have so many examples spanning every known art- science and occupation? Of course there are up and coming black actors, but who gives a damn when we have this fine example right here.

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  16. What stood out the most for me in macon’s reworking of Alternet’s piece is:
    They sell an escape to fantasy WHITE masculinity. And WHITE? boy, while there might be more WHITE women drinking beer and watching the Super Bowl than ever, and more ads directed to them in some ways, most beer ads -- especially the sexy ones -- are like WHITE masculinity on steroids.

    Especially the last four words. Mel in ‘take one’ (see previous post) says:
    These ads are targeted to white frat boys. In their eyes/world, only blond-haired white girls (under 30) exist.

    I agree with the second sentence, but not the first. Frat boys on their own don’t make up enough of a consumer demographic for it to be profitable for beer companies to target them exclusively. I think the ads target all men who like Super Bowl. And they use frat boy type men as the model that all men should aspire to. This is what the ultimately successful man looks like, they say: white, (upper/) middle class, has cash, has lots of white girls around him, and drinks beer…lots of beer. Thus, “WHITE masculinity on steroids.”

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  17. How about a post about intersectionality for white people?

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  18. @plastiknoise:

    The comments and this subsequent act is incredibly depressing and frustrating. Overall,this just solidifies the "fact" that "white" is and will always be the norm, the ideal, the dream.

    In regards to the topic at large: It may very well be media indoctrination of these images that results in a sort of cause and effect in how white men/women (and everyone in general) view beauty. Only a few years ago (6) my white boyfriend exclaimed that he could NEVER see himself dating a black woman and didn't find "them" attractive at all. He still cringes with embarrassment whenever I bring up that little bit of history. All he saw was white, all he knew was white, all he was ever taught to view as beautiful and desirable was white. His only exposure to black women, hell, black PEOPLE was through movies and tv shows. I swear, you could see a complete internal struggle going on when we met in which he was trying to reconcile all the he "knew" to be true with what he was now faced with in reality with me. It was as if he was having a psychological break down.

    @Rose: America the Beautiful is incredibly insightful and shocking.(Just finished watching it) I also had to pause after the "doctor" scene...I mean, really?!

    @Macon: Please continue the great work. I personally know that the cycle of racism can be broken, especially at the individual level. My relationship with my boyfriend is a testament to that (I'm talking former republican neo-con, racial/homophobic slur dropping madness).

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  19. Macon wrote:
    "I see now that I should have emphasized objectifying, conquering white masculinity in these ads, instead of pervasive white, and excluded non-white, femininity. The objectification promulgated in "Guyland" trivializes all women, and it helps to endanger them as well, by encouraging men to think of them as sexual targets and conquests."

    Yesterday I mentioned that ESPN put Serena Williams on their cover issue with no clothes on.In a sense that's how our racists society conquers WOC by making them as sex objects if they have some prominence in our society.Her lack of clothes stripped her of her power and the attention was her sexuality not her skill as an athlete.White males pose in their sport wear on the cover of ESPN all the time;but when it comes to women in sports they have to be almost naked.It's sexist, racist and done to keep sports a male dominated event..

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  20. If we are to talk of a package deal in this analysis, then I'd like to offer that hetero-normativity permeates throughout as well...

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  21. "Beauty" is such a minefield of intersections that it's hard for me to focus but I'll try. Rosa asked "what does it matter what white men like?" and I definitely see her point, but it's not just about wanting to be seen as (sexually) attractive. That's not what gets me upset. It's all the other forms of "attractiveness" tied up with prettiness— pretty privilege, I guess. Pretty people "are" more believable, more more trustworthy, nicer to be around, smarter [major issues with this WIDELY CITED AND VERY POPULAR paper], etc., etc. And this most certainly applies to men too. [Notice that PoC "are" none of these things. For example, ever notice that "all black women 'are' mean"?] And you know what? Pretty people truly, actually are more successful and experience more love.

    So, while it shouldn't, it does matter— their perception of reality affects actual reality.

    Take Serena Williams. The commentary on her has always made me so uncomfortable/angry/confused. Whenever she's depicted as a woman (not an athlete), out come the nasty remarks about her appearance (usually centered on her butt, which WW of her size/shape would never get) and they ALWAYS end up slipping into her tennis ability. M.Gibson's link illustrates it perfectly. It affects the perception of her athletic talent, and it has since day one— it's like she's not "pretty" enough to be lauded, and people get really chapped about it.

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  23. [Take two on my Part II. My html was a mess.]

    Or take Zoe Saldana. I never even heard of her before last year, but as soon as I saw that VF cover, I was like, "huh? where's she at?" She just starred in two HUGE movies (Avatar, and Star Trek— which is an American Institution and a Big Fuckin' Deal. I'm not even particularly a fan, but dude. She's definitely a "new face." But she isn't— ie: can't be— worth noticing. She just can't be, in order to make that VF cover make sense. That goes for WP looking at it, and the WP who conceived it. Does that make sense? Her absence "is" justified. She's not pretty, she's not talented, she's not noticeable, she's not material... and it's not just her.

Plastiknoise linked to an article about the cover that noted three PoC actresses who could have been there. The very first comment:
There are many amazing diverse actresses in Hollywood, but they are not the next up and coming actresses in Hollywood. Precious has won countless awards, but has Gabourey Sidibe been cast in any other new movies? Fas Frieda Pinto starred in another huge blockbuster or even a main starring role?Avatar may have broken tons of records, but has Zoe Saldana really shown that she is up and coming and worth her while?

    

Okay. Gabourey Sidibe has been cast in a new movie. Frieda Pinto has two movies coming out— in one, she has the title role; the other is a Woody Allen picture. And Zoe Saldana? Has she shown that she's "worth her while"? Well, she has no less than FIVE movies coming out, including another Star Trek. So somebody thinks she has. Just, y'know, not you. Or VF. Or anyone else in that thread.

See what I'm saying? As far as they're concerned the answers are all NO. They were "no" ahead of time. They can't see these people unless they try (and sometimes not even then). They're... fnord. Meanwhile, that dead-eyed piece of set dressing, Kristen Stewart, makes perfect sense! Whiskey tango foxtrot?!

    Point of all this is: "attractive" has perks, but you can only be fully attractive if you're white. Otherwise, you're a little less there. (And the flip side is that half the time, the only way to be "there" is to be "ugly.")

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  24. Karinova said....
    "Take Serena Williams. The commentary on her has always made me so uncomfortable/angry/confused. Whenever she's depicted as a woman (not an athlete), out come the nasty remarks about her appearance (usually centered on her butt, which WW of her size/shape would never get) and they ALWAYS end up slipping into her tennis ability. M.Gibson's link illustrates it perfectly. It affects the perception of her athletic talent, and it has since day one— it's like she's not "pretty" enough to be lauded, and people get really chapped about it."

    Does anyone remember how Martina Navratilova was painted as a powerhouse by white commentators? She dominated the court for years as I recall. The veins in her arms, her hardened architecture was quite noticeable when she was on the court. Her short cropped hair made her look very manly- yet whites’ focused on her tennis. White female Bodybuilders are considered "Sexy" and “Hot!” by white men- but this honor is never conferred upon Serena or her sister.

    What amazes me about bodybuilders is the double-standard white females enjoy. No matter how masculine the white female athlete may appear to be, with her muscles and her rugged chin; the adjectives sexy and sensual will always be employed to describe her. Bev Francis shook up the bodybuilding world because she looked so manly, but she had her supporters. After years she trimmed her build by taking off muscle mass- yet she was still cut more than most men.

    And even when she was at her biggest white men still loved her. Never was there any implication that she might be related in some way to an animal. The black body is a work of art- both in stature and in form. Our unique construction should be something to laud, but whites have denigrated our image by making some blacks feel ashamed of their attributes; yet even today white women appropriate certain black features to attain that exotic look. As an artist I have studied artistic anatomy for over 30 years, and I can count the books on my hand that have depicted a black model in them.

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  25. I would like to watch the documentary that was mentioned could someone send me a link please and thank you

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  26. m. gibson; 2 things...one, female bodybuilders are NOT considered univrsally Hot by WM. those guys who find muscularity in women to be attractive (and i'm one of them
    ), REALLY dig the look; but a lot of men do not. i think they find it intimidating, disturbing that a female might actually be able to best them physically-so they cover that by saying women who bodybuild are 'freakish', ugly, unfeminine, etc...much the same kind of flak serena gets.

    two; WoC seem to be pretty well represented in the bodybuilding world. it ain't just a lot of Buff Barbie dolls

    aiyo; it's called 'america the beautiful'. directd by darryl roberts. it's available thru netflix.

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  27. I won't even get into Navratilova— she got more than her fair share of sexism and homophobia (although it's worth noting that her overall athletic image was never really tarnished; she's still known as a Tennis Master for the Ages). No, I'm thinking more of say... Anna Kournikova. She so "pretty"! So "pretty" that it never seemed to matter that she really wasn't shit on the court. So "pretty" that she could be all over my tv advertising cameras and whatnot, and still be known for her tennis. THIS is what bothers me about the Serena Williams commentary. She could be the uncontested best in the WORLD, and people would still be questioning her talent.

    Ditto the actresses. I mean, FOUR huge blockbusters between them, hundreds of millions of dollars, dozens of accolades, and the big question is, "are they really worth their while? what have they even done?" It's laughable that they would be stars.

    One last thing: I'd note that the pretty deficit doesn't even benefit WoC the one way you'd think (less objectification). I say we're not just "unrapeable," I say we're so rapeabe-by-default that it need not be noted. Anecdote: when I was subject to street harassment, 99% of the gropings and frotteuring I got was from WM (as in, only ONE was not). They rarely holla'd at me; they were the ones who touched. I was deep in denial about racism then, but I noticed that at the time. [I'll never forget the COP who gave me a ride out of a sketchy area and told me again and again how "pretty" I was... while he masturbated to completion. "Pretty" led directly to "sex!!," not "protect this young girl."] And, the few times I was ever "saved" from this (twice), my saviors were black men. To this day, as far as I'm concerned, corner boys hollering are annoying but perfectly safe. It's those WM you need to look out for. Too quiet to yell, but plenty entitled enough to just grab you— at age 13. (And if you should go missing, you won't be "pretty" enough to be on tv.)

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  28. @randy,
    Right. Muscular women are "less feminine." But what if your color means that (no matter the actual shape of your body) you're always perceived as just a little bit more muscular/physically strong (black women, Latina women). What if you're always perceived as a lot more delicate (East Asian women)? THAT'S intersectionality.

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  29. I really appreciated that Rosa and fromthetropics took the time to deeply dissect the original post because after reading it, I could only close the page in disgust. I want WoC to be recognized as beautiful but...not like THAT. *I* don't even feel represented in that sort of "beauty." I feel insulted by that standard, alienated because I don't look like them either no matter how white I am. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Thank you for the re-post, apology and clarification.

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  30. Karinova, your points about Hollywood actresses and specifically the WoC you've mentioned are great points. I appreciate the links you've provided as well.

    I wanted to tack on something about Zoe Saldana which attests to your points. She is actually not that new. She has appeared in the 1st Pirates of the Caribbean as well. She was angry and fierce, of course - not like meek little Kiera Knightly whose bark and bite are meant to be a surprise to viewers. Not so, for Zoe's character. Zoe has also had a recurring role on ER where she played the love interest of a white doctor. PotC and ER are both pretty white, despite their multiple uses (and I do mean uses) of PoC.

    At any rate - Zoe is having to accept these roles which cast her stereotypically or exoticize her every time OR she can move over into the black film industry and never get her moment in Halle Berry's shoes. She's found more "acceptable" because she's lighter and can be made lighter still, her hair is straight and often long. Her features are pretty sharp. And she's rail-thin.

    She has all the attributes that white people look for when they finally decide to value a PoC in film. And that is what makes it sad. White people are the ones who determine whether or not she becomes a household name. She's not judged on her work at all. She's sought out to fill roles for token brown characters who aren't *too* brown.

    And since Halle Berry is such a big deal now, and people are probably like "Oh it's Halle again, how nice" Zoe will probably get her time in the white man's gaze. I'm not sure if that's positive or not. I suppose it is in a very backhanded way.

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  31. Victoria said...
    "At any rate - Zoe is having to accept these roles which cast her stereotypically or exoticize her every time OR she can move over into the black film industry and never get her moment in Halle Berry's shoes. She's found more "acceptable" because she's lighter and can be made lighter still, her hair is straight and often long. Her features are pretty sharp. And she's rail-thin.

    She has all the attributes that white people look for when they finally decide to value a PoC in film. And that is what makes it sad. White people are the ones who determine whether or not she becomes a household name. She's not judged on her work at all. She's sought out to fill roles for token brown characters who aren't *too* brown."

    Bingo!
    I’ve noticed also that if a black woman wants to raise her profile in the white mainstream, she is cast opposite a white actor and this is the measure of success (for her) in our society. To be considered successful, sooner or later the black woman will have to slim down (if she isn't already) to make herself more appealing to the white mainstream. Janet Jackson lost 60 lbs, Jennifer Lopez has lost her signature booty and now plays opposite white men in romantic comedies. Queen Latifah has also lost weight to make herself more bankable. And the woman who gave the term "Bootylicious" its name has also slimmed down. Its funny for when Janet Jackson was cast to play opposite Tupac Shakur in, Poetic Justice; he asked her "to gain weight" to better reflect a woman from the inner-city. Rolling Stone magazine didn’t even notice her as a sexy adult until she lost the "baby fat" as they termed it.

    For those minority women who sought validation from the white mainstream (Lola Falana, Lena Horne, Diahann Carroll, Dorothy Dandridge- Beyonce, Jennifer Lopez and Halle Berry) she must possess some of the attributes most white males find appealing; namely a thin tight body- or boyish figure. A small taut behind, and light skin or exotic features. There was much controversy surrounding Beyonce in a spot she did for a L’Oreal’s beauty ad, course the company denied any culpability. I think the aim of the company was to make her more appealing to white consumers and more importantly, white males.

    Halle Berry was cast in Catwoman as a sexual vamp but the movie performed abysmally. Now one can attribute this to her poor acting performance, or a badly written story. Or maybe, white males couldn’t relate to her as appealing enough to turn out in droves to see her. Course she was lauded for her role opposite Billy Bob Thornton in Monster's Ball" as the tragic mulatto. Black women have been fated to exist solely in the descriptors whites have assigned to them. Either she is The Angry Black Woman, as in Precious, or she is the tragic light-skinned “negress with issues” who lies with a racist in Monster’s Ball. Some Black women desperately seek acceptance by wearing long blond wigs- ( Wendy Williams) and lightening their skin ( Lil Kim.") Even losing weight, all for white validation. “You know your career would really take off if you just lost some weight (Jennifer Hudson) or lighten your skin- or straighten your hair etc..”

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  32. "I say we're not just "unrapeable," I say we're so rapeabe-by-default that it need not be noted. Anecdote: when I was subject to street harassment, 99% of the gropings and frotteuring I got was from WM (as in, only ONE was not). They rarely holla'd at me; they were the ones who touched...To this day, as far as I'm concerned, corner boys hollering are annoying but perfectly safe. It's those WM you need to look out for. Too quiet to yell, but plenty entitled enough to just grab you— at age 13. (And if you should go missing, you won't be "pretty" enough to be on tv.)

    A-MEN. I have been groped and propositioned by so many white guys since I was fifteen that I stopped keeping track. The groping hasn't stopped, nor has the propositioning. Random white guys still make a beeline for me, immediately start touching shit which doesn't belong to them before they even say hello, evetually start "demanding" my phone number (they never ask) and sometimes even my address; they always flat-out ask for sex (one actually tried to offer me money) and when the inevitable denial comes along, they try to "smooth things over" with some flimsy compliment. One guy told me he liked me my lips and that he wouldn't leave me alone unless I gave him a kiss. When a black girlfriend of mine and I shot down some white, well-dressed, Rolex-wearing threesome-seeker, he shrugged it off saying, "Well, I just thought you guys were beautiful and liked to fool around."

    And when you're a POC, you automatically pay extra attention to things. So you look for patterns like location, what you're wearing, time of day, and what type of white guy is approaching you (older, younger, richer, poorer, etc.) and after more than a decade of paying attention, the only two constants I could pinpoint in every situation was that it a white guy propositioning me, the black female who apparently has "FAIR GAME" branded across her forehead.

    Btw, telling them you're offended, etc. doesn't do shit for you. There's no remorse. No guilt. No shame. No apologies of any kind. There is, however, an abundance of indignant anger and irritation, and the parting thought that something must be really wrong with you for turning them down.

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  33. Karinova said:

    Take Serena Williams. The commentary on her has always made me uncomfortable...Whenever she's depicted as a woman, out come the nasty remarks about her appearance...usually centered on her butt, which WW of her size/shape would never get.

    Menelik asks:

    which white women have you ever seen with a bootilicious body like my gal, Serena?

    M. Gibson asked:

    1) Does anyone remember how Martina Navratilova? The veins in her arms, her hardened architecture was quite noticeable when she was on the court. Her short cropped hair made her look very manly- yet whites’ focused on her tennis.

    2) White female Bodybuilders are considered "Sexy" and “Hot!” by white men- but this honor is never conferred upon Serena or her sister.

    3) The black body is a work of art- both in stature and in form. Our unique construction should be something to laud, but whites have denigrated our image by making some blacks feel ashamed of their attributes; yet even today white women appropriate certain black features to attain that exotic look.

    4) As an artist I have studied artistic anatomy for over 30 years, and I can count the books on my hand that have depicted a Black model in them.

    Menelik says:

    if you really want to understand what goes re whites ignoring or appropriating Black female beauty (which is nothing, if not in ya face!) then maybe we need to study the fairytale, Cinderella & the Ugly Sisters. Once done, maybe we can ask ourselves the following:

    1) why did the Ugly Sisters hate on Cinderella?

    2) why did they enslave her within the household and forbid her from attending social events?

    3) why did the Ugly Sisters attempt to mimic Cinderella's beauty by way of heavy make-up and expensive clothing while attending royal ocasions?

    4) why did they each attempt to force their size 15 feet into Cinderella's tiny glass slipper when a fit was impossible?

    5) lastly, let's ask ourselves whether, despite of Cinderella's beauty, whether it was possible for her to have grown up with a healthy self-esteem in an environment which hated, envied and marginalised her?

    Do check out this most interesting pyschoanalytic phrase to help you on your way:

    http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ReplyDelete
  34. @Moi

    YES! This. Or you are just completely ignored. They see right through you. Or push you aside as if to walk right through you. You exist as a sex object, or not at all. There is hardly ever an in between because you are not even worth getting to know. Why would you be? You're not even fully human...:-/

    ReplyDelete
  35. I wrote about a black blogger who posed as white on a dating site to see what kind of response she would get. It kind of ties in to what you're talking about.

    http://cocoafly.blogspot.com/2010/02/black-blogger-pretends-to-be-white.html

    I agree that no woman should be sexualized and used to sell products. But the Super Bowl ads do say a lot about who American men find sexy. It's not just race. Look at body type. Remember that commercial where people at the office were in their underwear. I was at Super Bowl party and I heard the loudest noises of shock and disgust when the full-figured woman in her bra and panties came on the screen. Not much noise from the party people when the men with the pot bellies were on screen in their undies.

    ReplyDelete
  36. @ KAT

    Exactly--WOC are strictly one or the other.

    I've also noticed other disturbing consistencies with my experiences. Like, the white guys never introduce themselves (they avoiding their names), and they never ask for my name either (which defeats the point of getting my number...just a thought). They also never ask my age (remember I've been dealing with this since I was 15). And when I was a student walking to campus, they didn't ask what year I was or what my major was.

    They always skip over these simple [but very important] questions to ask for sex. I realized long ago they skipped those questions because they were "person" questions, and on days when, I guess, they "decided" to "see" me, they still didn't want to have to see me as a person.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Makes me think of an early Twilight Zone (The Eye of the Beholder)

    "Janet Tyler has undergone her eleventh treatment in an attempt to look like everybody else. The details of the treatment are not given, but Tyler is first shown with her head completely bandaged, so her face cannot be seen. She is described as being "not normal" by the nurses and doctor, whose own faces are always in shadows or off-camera."

    Wanting so much to conform to the prevailing standard of beauty, she undergoes surgery as a last ditch effort to conform.

    My other point was, as masculine as these white female body builders appear to you and me, some white men still prefer them to Serena Williams. These women retain their humanity, while Serena loses hers. Even with their muscles they are still seen as delicate because of their whiteness.

    Note the comments:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TamCi1AFTDA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exYe7YtoAnk

    Google "Miss Olympia sexy" in Google images. It is evident to me that opinions vary with regards to beauty; but there are a lot of white men who do indeed think these women are sexy, and more feminine than Serena Williams. I cant tell you how many times I've either heard or read white men speak of how much they love a fit body. A lean body with no fat; certainly not like the big butt coupled with the dark skin that Serena has. That was my point.

    And this just takes the cake....
    Anna Kournikova Perfect Butt

    ReplyDelete
  38. Cocoa Fly said...
    "I agree that no woman should be sexualized and used to sell products. But the Super Bowl ads do say a lot about who American men find sexy. It's not just race. Look at body type."

    I beg to differ- as skinny as Zoe Saldana is and Halle Berry is and Beyonce is, most whites don't think of them in terms of "Hot Babe." I invite you to Google "Hot Babe" and tell me how many black women you come across. That moniker is set aside for white women almost exclusively. It’s the same when you think of, “The Girl Next Door,” go ahead and Google that too.

    You won't get back many black women because most whites think of a skinny, thin blond- or brunette by default. Like Megan Fox, Sarah Prejean or even Anna Kournikova. Then ask yourself, does Serena Williams come to mind when you think of these two labels? Not that we should objectify her as well, but she is lessened in the eyes of most white males (even if she lost 60 lbs) because she is considered less than feminine. How about even the newly crowned Miss America, Caressa Cameron? Have any of you read some of the comments about her? Disgraceful.

    When we went to war in Europe, it was Betty Grable's legs that graced the side of B-22 bombers and PT boats, not Lena Horne's. Ask most young white men whom they would prefer to wife between Halle Berry, Zoe Saldana- or Megan Fox; I’d be curious as to that outcome.

    I’m 52 and women have been used to sell everything from cigarettes to automobiles since before I was born, I can’t see that changing any time soon; no matter how much we may disapprove. I hope I didn't offend..

    ReplyDelete
  39. Menelik asks:
    "which white women have you ever seen with a bootilicious body like my gal, Serena?"

    Google "Pawg."
    Please forgive me, I'm not trying to offend; I know this is just another way men objectify women, but this body-type is out there. What with the average white woman being a size 14, now, its more common than you think. And I know, it doesn't make it right. But maybe that's why white men are holding onto that fantasy image of the perfect size zero. White women are getting larger in the suburbs and this is just another area where white males have lost control.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I read Karinova's comment and tried to mentally tell myself that many black women (BW) have written online that they find it silly that others are shocked at how much crap they go through...but, I can't hear stuff like this and not express shock because it's 'standard stuff'...Whada effing el? This (the way the world is) is ridiculous.

    I want WoC to be recognized as beautiful but...not like THAT.

    Amen. The problem isn't that WOC aren't represented as 'beautiful' in these ads. The problem is that these objectified depictions of white women are complimented(?is that the right word?) with positive images of white women (WW) as you see in Vanity Fair and elsewhere. So, while white women are objectified, at another level they can also be seen as worthy of respect.

    The near invisibility of women of color (WOC) in terms of positive images of women, combined with the sexual objectification of women, any women, creates the image that WOC more available for objectification, subjugation, and abuse. A lack of positive images of WOC means that they have less access to sympathy, empathy, compassion, and institutional protection in the face of abuse.

    Also, these ads create a perverted kind of desire for objectified 'beauty'. When we are bombarded with images of objectified women from a young age, it is psychologically difficult to not think that that's how you need to be to gain male attention/approval. Women shouldn't need male approval, but many of us do have some sort of insecurity or another that causes us to (subconsciously) seek it. So what these ads do is, they create a (perverted) desire in many to be like those objectified white women. On the one hand, WOC don't want that, but on the other hand, the ads are trying to tell us that we do. Sadly, it often succeeds in convincing the unaware. (Hence the huge issue I had with the OP unintentionally suggesting that it had something to do with WOC's desire to be seen as 'beautiful'.)

    ReplyDelete
  41. @ M. Gibson - co-sign.

    I particularly liked the statement, "They retain their humanity, while Serena loses hers."

    Precisely. The WOC has to abide by very strict rules with her body (and behavior) just to be "considered" attractive. The moment she breaks one of the rules, or deviates from the accepted fantasy (*nods to Asian women*), she becomes something--not even someone--to reject and ridicule, and even hold up as a cautionary tale to others who would follow her example.

    Another example is the steadily growing stereotype of the lonely professional, successful black woman. Seriously--type "successful/professional black women" into your Google bar and our low marriage rates and increasing childlessness automatically come up right alongside our academic and occupational triumphs.

    It's like black women are being chastised for going to school, getting good jobs, and not having kids out of wedlock. The message these articles and news clips send us is that once black women started doing these things in large numbers, it made us undesirable somehow. Our being deliberately ignored, marginalized, objectified, negatively portrayed, etc.--apparently--has nothing to do with it.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Moi said...

    @ M. Gibson - co-sign.

    I particularly liked the statement, "They retain their humanity, while Serena loses hers."

    Menelik says:

    and my point is that just as Cinderella has her humanity SUBTRACTED from rather than loses it, so too does the likes of Serena Williams, and by extension all dark-skinned Black women!

    there is a big difference between losing something and having it taken away, no?

    Menelik Charles
    London England
    @ M. Gibson,

    white women are NOT shaped like Black women regardless of their dress size!

    ReplyDelete
  43. In part- black women have been forced to rely on themselves when black men fail to step up to the plate and do what’s right. Sometimes due to the circumstances that could not be helped, (Slavery) the black man was simply unable to. This mindset has come from years of conditioning, and negative media portrayals of blacks in general. The media’s portrayal of the black family has been abysmal; one can point to the Cosby show to attest to this fact. Up until that time most black families were headed up by single black women. Whites killed off the strong black father in Good times. What’s Happening Now had a deadbeat black father that came by from time to time. In the sitcom, Baby I'm Back, the black father all but abandoned his children. We didn’t see many black families portrayed positively by whites- but there were a few exceptions once blacks demanded more control.

    Black men already have limited experience with what it means to be real men, having no positive male model with which to pattern themselves after. They learn about manhood and relationships in the streets and from their peers, but only in the worst way. Manhood is defined by violence towards women and multiple babies by more than one woman. Add a racist justice system in the mix and you only complicate the matter.

    When I went to high school a good portion of the teachers were black males, who were married with children of their own. But now it’s worse: White Female teachers constitute 83 percent of the U.S. elementary teaching force. So who’s teaching black boys to be men with so high a deficit of black mentors? To be responsible: to love- nurture and care for someone other than themselves. They have not the tools- nor the inclination, so they grow up emotionally stunted; seeking to prove their manhood in other ways.

    Young men of both races lose out when they come across an exceptionally confident- educated, committed black woman; they’re intimidated by her sense of self-sufficiency. As Moi has alluded, white men don’t even see you as a person, simply as a body; based on the signals they get from the media. The, “she can take care of herself,” stereotype is accepted universally by both races. Still they fail to appreciate, the black woman does want a companion, a soulmate and friend; a man who will be there to support her and do it while in a committed relationship. A man who will love her and respect her for who she is.

    Most black women portrayed by a white media are single and sexless, having too many problems to count. She’s been redefined to fit their narrow view, namely- “Negress with issues.” Negative portrayals such as these render the black woman untouchable by many would-be suitors. Whites still do the hiring and the casting; they write the news stories and frame the material any way they wish. The black woman pays the ultimate price when she is framed in this manner.

    Somebody said, “Many black women can say they are mothers, but very few can say they are wives.” There is an alarming belief amongst some black people that marrige is for white people. This ingrained belief has propagated in the black community, leading some black girls to believe that they are undeserving of a loving- committed man and family, so any man will do. That white-bred fantasy is not for us some would say, and it is so so sad.

    I remember songs like Betty Wright's, Cleanup Woman, or Barbara Mason’s Shackin' Up- or Bloodstone’s, Outside Woman. Which goes, I lay next to another woman... But I called out your name. It became indicative of a lot of black couples back in the 70’s. Better not to marry, why not just live together and have fun; because honey any man is better than no man. Sadly white society did a number on us..then we did a number on ourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  44. @ Menelik

    One could say that if you've had something subtracted from you...then you've lost it, haven't you? Wording it differently doesn't change the fact that it's gone, and the "gone-ness" usually is more the focus than the "how-to-say-it-went-ness".

    @ M.Gibson

    Again, excellent work. And with those stats you posted, I think more blacks in general should consider teaching as a career, and not just at the college level. 'Cause though I had some bad-ass blck professors, I would've appreciated a few more at my junior high and high school.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Menelik Charles
    London England
    @ M. Gibson,

    white women are NOT shaped like Black women regardless of their dress size!

    lol
    My gracious, you speak to me as if I were a child. Say what you want, you are entitled to your opinion "Just as I am." There are forums where a lot of black men would disagree with you. I have seen a few white women myself, so please do not try to dismiss my 52 year old eyes.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Menelik says:
    "and my point is that just as Cinderella has her humanity SUBTRACTED from rather than loses it, so too does the likes of Serena Williams, and by extension all dark-skinned Black women!"

    Forgive me, it’s been a while- but last time I checked Cinderella was white. Her stepsisters were white. Her evil, vindictive Stepmother was white. I’m not sure if you can equate the suffering of poor white Cinderella, with what most black women have gone through; because in the end Cinderella retains her whiteness. This is made quite apparent when she rides off with her White prince, “and they lived happily ever after.” Cinderella wasn’t raped on a regular basis- she wasn’t whipped, she wasn’t seen as sub-human; and there was no law on the books that made her whiteness a crime.

    She was oppressed solely by three white women. Serena is stuck in her black skin as long as she lives, and she is oppressed by an entire race. She is judged through a white lens that constantly sees her as being less than human. Nowhere in the story is Cinderella likened to an ape, or a beast of burden. This is not the result of having one's humanity "SUBTRACTED," as you put it; but rather- its being denied your humanity altogether. No matter how rich her prince may be she will take her black skin with her. So no I can’t see what you’re getting at.

    Those two sisters were privileged only in the sense their mother was jealous and gave them power over Cinderella, as long as she stayed in that house. Outside that house Cinderella's beauty would have been lauded by her race. They may have been envious of her beauty but her whiteness was never an issue. She may have been treated inhumanely, but her whiteness never rendered her inhuman. Nowhere in the story is it remotely inferred that Cinderella hated herself because of her white skin, like some black girls do. Nowhere in the narrative does she ever question, why oh why was I born white? Oh woe is me! She had naturally long silky blond hair and blue eyes- not a weave and contact lenses. Even her fairy godmother was white. What does Serena have? Who's there to help her escape her blackness?

    “Cinderella is a well-known classic folk tale embodying a myth-element of unjust oppression/triumphant reward.” So why should we weep over poor white Cinderella? She got hers, so where’s Serena’s? From this site:

    “Little girls aren’t going to buy Mulan and Pocahontas (or Tia) gear, not because they’re “rustic,” but because they’re “of color.” Whiteness is so valued in our society that it’s pervasive to an extent that even a three year old girl can tell that to be blonde-haired blue-eyed white Cinderella is preferable to being red-skinned brown-eyed black-haired Pocahontas.”

    ReplyDelete
  47. Menelik Charles
    London England
    @ M. Gibson,
    “White women are NOT shaped like Black women regardless of their dress size!”

    1. Whooty
    2. Pawg
    3. Whooty, White Girl with a Booty. Notice the color of the men in the video. White Girl Wednesday Presents...The Original Whooty (White Girl With A Booty)...Featuring..."Elke The Stallion." And surely you remember Ice-T's wife CoCo. And and here...

    Stuff Black People Like From dymplez_25: “Well, down south the white girls have pretty big butts. Some put black girl’s butts to shame so it all depends on the person and genetics. I think…"

    As much as one might wince with scorn to seeing black women as objects, there is a bit of truth in how the races size each other up as potential mates. Where I came up, when a group of young black males saw a black girl walk by, she was judged from the waist down. There was little talk of how big her front was and much discussion about how big her butt was. I grew up with The Bertha Butt Boogie, and the Butt Sisters. Now this was back in the 70's, just look at the size of these women. Remember Sly and the Family Stone's Loose Booty. Course you also had, Da Butt and Rumpshaker.

    Its a shameful way young black men celebrated the subtle graces of the black female form, reducing her to mere body parts in the process. All races do not share the thin, euro-white standard of beauty (thank God) but white men have come to assume that we do. So Anna Kournikova is seen as “everyman’s woman,” not just a thin emaciated white girl (with a little boy’s butt.)

    So should a black man come across a white woman whose shape is "similar," not exact mind you- to Serena’s, just similar then that's good enough for him. Just as white men judge black women, for their attributes (thinness) black men do the exact same thing with white women (Thickness.)

    I hope I didn’t offend; I just hate having to go to such lengths to prove a point. At least I hope I did….

    ReplyDelete
  48. Moi said...
    "'Cause though I had some bad-ass blck professors, I would've appreciated a few more at my junior high and high school."

    In the high school which I attended back in 73, both the Principal and the assistant Principal were black. If Mr. Murphy, or Mr. McCullum caught you in the hall without a pass you were in trouble. And I mean trouble in the real sense of the word, because he might call your parent, as well as cite you for the violation. Both men had families of their own and roamed the halls freely catching violators like flies in a trap. These black men were both paternal and mentoring in every way especially for some us who grew up without the benefit of a father.

    My Pastor hugged me after services one day years ago (a white man whom I love dearly) and I told him how I suddenly felt the urge to put my thumb in my mouth. I had never been hugged by a man before and he being the father figure that he was, gave me such warmth as though I were a treasured son. It never occurred to me how much I had missed out on by not being hugged by a father. Just think of how many young black males have never been hugged by their fathers; let alone being told, "I love you."

    ReplyDelete
  49. Didn't go through all the comments, but I just had to add my little two cents or whatever it's worth. The thing that irritates me that happens is the adulation of white women with "black" features. It warms my heart to see white women being praised for having features that not too long ago many of us were derided for having. Actually, most of us still are: thick lips and big asses are only desirable on white womem or women of color who look very close to white (you know who I mean).

    ReplyDelete
  50. Re: it's hot when white women do it

    I don't know why I didn't remember this before, but behold: "Booty Pop" underwear! Yes, I'm afraid so.
    It's interesting to note that the product itself is quite old. Wonder made them decide to turn "Fanny Panties" into "Booty Pops"??

    Also, in a similar vein:
    "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk". These women would be "video hos" (to men of all colors) if they were browner; these women— and their 80s versions, who got their clothes blown off with firehoses— are "video vixens."

    [First two links may not be safe for work: women in their underwear. Sadly, the third link probably won't get you fired. (It's a country music video.)]

    ReplyDelete
  51. i have to admit that i find W girls w/african feature(full lips, yes-but especially a broad nose; very rare but it does occur.) and B girls w/euro features(like stacy dash) to often be quite attractive.

    also, i do think that the general, overall standard of beauty has become more africanized over the decades. the ideal is no longer a grace kelly, so much is it?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Why are people so comfortable with pointing out why they don't find Black people attractive? I'm posing this question to those who do it.

    Do you say the same thing about other races?

    What do you think the average Black person's response is when they hear/read stuff like this? Do you even care?

    Specifically for the people who do this to Black women, do you not have any qualms with taking shots(dissecting why they're unattractive in front of them) at women's self esteem in general or do you only do it to Black women?

    ReplyDelete
  53. "the ideal is no longer a grace kelly, so much is it?"
    Tell that to the hordes of starlets and wannabes (of every race!) who get blonder and blonder with each passing year.

    And, dude? I gotta say, I'm more than a little icked out by the whole "WW with black features are hot!/BW with white features are hot!" thing. I don't know exactly where you stand, but you should know: there's lots o' baggage there. I really don't even know where to begin, but... yuck. As a BW, I find it creepy, insulting and offensive (and I'm not the only one).

    Literally: I've got a knot in my stomach right now.

    I dunno, look it up or something.
    Start with "exotification."

    Also? Why do you keep telling us what you like? TMI.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @ M. Gibson,

    maybe you need to read my words again before getting so angry, reactionary and defensive:

    If you really want to understand what goes re whites ignoring or appropriating Black female beauty (which is nothing, if not in ya face!) then maybe we need to study the fairytale, Cinderella & the Ugly Sisters. Once done, maybe we can ask ourselves the following:

    1) why did the Ugly Sisters hate on Cinderella?

    2) why did they enslave her within the household and forbid her from attending social events?

    3) why did they attempt to mimic Cinderella's beauty by way of heavy make-up and expensive clothing while attending royal ocasions?

    4) why did they each attempt to force their size 15 feet into Cinderella's tiny glass slipper when a fit was impossible?

    5) lastly, let's ask ourselves whether, despite of Cinderella's beauty, whether it was possible for her to have grown up with a healthy self-esteem in an environment which hated, envied and marginalised her?

    Do check out this most interesting pyschoanalytic phrase to help you on your way:

    http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

    If you'd taken a moment to check out the link above rather than inundating me with links (all of which I've checked out) you may see the actual point I was attempting to make.

    Thank you

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ReplyDelete
  55. Menelik,

    You say that you're attempting to make a point; please just tell us your point, rather than giving us an oblique, link-chasing quiz (especially after correcting someone for supposedly not getting your point).

    ReplyDelete
  56. Menelik Charles said....
    "maybe you need to read my words again before getting so angry, reactionary and defensive"

    lol
    Why dear sir:
    You are reading antagonism into a response where no anger existed. Coming from a man used to telling others to “calm down,” I must say I’m surprised at your reaction.

    Please- let’s not sink any further into a reactionary gala of name-calling and drive-by link pasting; let’s just agree to allow each other the simple courtesy of voicing their opinions. You gave it your best shot- so let’s move on shall we? I said what I wanted to say, and moreover- I can’t feel anger or malice towards someone I’ve never even met. Any further dispute twixt you and I would add very little to the overall topic- so with that being said… you have the floor. I have a hard enough time trying to win an argument with the Mrs., let alone someone who’s, "Mensa Smart."

    "Thank you
    Menelik Charles
    London England"

    You're quite welcome by the way….
    I wish you every success with your book.
    Michael Gibson
    United States of America.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @ Macon D, here is my point:

    Reaction Formation:

    "reduces anxiety by taking up the opposite feeling, impulse, or behavior. Examples:

    Why do people behave this way?

    According to Freud, they are using reaction formation as a defense mechanism to hide their true feelings by behaving in the exact opposite manner".

    My point re Cinderella and Serena Williams is that envy is the flipside of admiration and that, in the case of Black women, white people are more likely to appropriate the physical and facial characteristics of Black women than they are of women of other races.

    true or false?

    White celebrate thick lips on white women e.g. Angelina Jolie and big butts on Latino ladies e.g. J-Lo. And to round it all off they're making themselves sick with cancer because they simply refuse to accept their absence of colour.

    The marginalisation and/or the mocking of the likes of Serena Williams (my fave babe btw) is nothing short of sour grapes and racial envy!

    This is why I say we can learn much from the tale of Cinderella and her treatment at the hands of her 'Ugly Sisters'.

    The reaction formation (defence mechanism) in the case of the 'Ugly Sisters' was to hate on Cinderella rather than to see, feel, and accept how unpalitable they were by comparison.

    They could not accept what they were i.e. 'ugly' and yet they sought acceptance into the 'beautiful set' that is deemed the royal circles. They shall go to the ball, it is true...but they'll never be the belle of the ball.

    That honour ultimately went to Cinderella.

    M. Gibson asked:

    Even Cinderella's fairy godmother was white. What does Serena have? Who's there to help her escape her blackness?

    Menelik replied:

    Excuse me? what makes you think Serena Williams wants or needs to "escape her blackness?"

    And why do you spend so much time trying to convince Black people that white people see Black women as aesthetically flawed?

    Maybe the answer's contained in your question about Serena above!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

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  58. Dear Macon D
    You have NOTHING to apologize for and I have noticed this ever since the blither blather and whining started over the images of women in hip-hop videos. And I agree with Karinova why all of a sudden is it a big fucking ass deal when black women shake their ass or display ANY form of sexuality?!! Case in point the utterly bullshit uproar over Janet and her 10 seconds of a naked tit 10 fucking seconds?! You can see TEN MINUTES of a white female's nudity on fucking youtube the problem is that a white female's beauty is not only look on as 'most desirable' bur her biggest validation. And we DAMN SURE can't have any 'other' women feeling quite so validated now can we even a SOGGY chip taste better than none at all. And because no matter how 'sexist' it comes off as it still bodes as flattering to a lot of women I seriously doubt any of those cheerleaders or Playboy playmates are going to be all upset because he thought more of her ass than what's on her mind. Some women like it some don't but why is it when it's black women in PARTICULAR it's always some goddamn 'cause for alarm'?! Those SAME people who lamented about Janet make BILLIONAIRES out of Hugh Hefner and the creators of Maxim,FHM,Stuff,and what the FUCK else they have that shows white women scantily clad. The same assholes whining about hip-hop videos created a social construct out of jerking off to the FLAT-OUT sex of 80's videos by sleazy hair bands where all the fucking talk of misogyny then?! And no offense Macon but hearing white males,especially those at Fake Noise,wring hands and 'burden' over the plight of 'negative' images of black women is like Adolf Hitler talking shit about the KKK! Not all sexism is created equally just like not all racism is and funny how they bemoan the images in hip-hop but want to put ANY black female entertainer who dare escone beauty in front of a fucking firing squad lest it go too far. I mean things like Janet,Vanessa Williams and the bllshit about her posing naked,Frenchy getting kicked off 'American Idol',Whitney Houston in a bikini[or just breathing],Naomi Campbell in a too-revealing gown,Toni Braxton and her Grammy dress,etc. It's like they only give a shit when it serves their hypocrisy I have YET to hear anyone complain about the way black women,hell women period,are treated by Hollywood. And I think a LOT if not all stems from the whole 'Jezebel' mentality from slavery meaning it's ok to fuck her but she's dirty and might give you soemthing to pass on your 'pure'[white]wife. Or the she's not really even 'human' but she's got 'girl parts' so that makes it ok or you didn't REALLY rape her she used her 'voodoo' on you or her 'feminine wiles' or yeah she's dark but she's pretty too can't pass that up no matter WHAT she is. How else do you explain dumb shits like Chris Matthews defending the so-called 'realtionship' between Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson as 'maybe it wa strue love' WTF?!! Or him saying that it wasn't 'real' stautory rape when Strom Thurmond had sex with a 16 year-old black female and basically shit all over his bi-racial daughter by saying 'he was a kid too' and 'those were the times'. Times what to fuck somebody underaged then go on all nice and merry with your life while she suffers as an unwed,single mom and you do everything HUMANLY possible to deny your own child their basic human rights?! Another problem is the whole 'purity' thing that goes with that no matter how much of a 'ho' a white female presents herself as she is still 'pure' something Ms. Richmond ALSO didn't bother to talk about. But my issue with supposed 'liberal' white feminist is a rant for another day.

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  59. @ icdama

    Good points. Very good points, actually!

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  60. This post struck a real chord with me, as at the moment I'm living in a large town as one of only two white people (and the only young unmarried woman). Apparently that also makes me the most attractive woman in town... even though there are many, many stunningly beautiful women here.

    I haven't noticed the 'subjugate a white woman' aspect in people's attraction to me, although now it has been mentioned I will think more deeply on it. Sexism of the kind I am used to is not so apparent amongst the cultural group I am living with, but there is deep resentment towards white colonials.

    Nevertheless, here white skin is considered very attractive. And white features such as a 'big' nose are too. But a lot of that is caught up with economic reasons... people want a white woman because the only men here who have managed to escape the cycle of crushing poverty, move to another country and come back rich have married white women. We are seen as a meal ticket and a status symbol, a beautiful object to possess and a get-rich-quick scheme all in one.

    Thanks for the post, sorry I have not had time to read all the comments (although I heartily agree with the fist post by The Chemist and the first post by fromthetropics).

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  61. What answers the confusion about where race and gender collide, especially in these examples is in language, specifically connotation. The reason Women of Color are not depicted is that they are not thought of as "women" at all. They are something else entirely- sub-woman.
    Who and who is not a "woman" in a racist patriarchal society is defined exclusively by the white male gaze. Thus, one 'can't' be sexist toward a WoC, because she is not on the scale of who gets respected (men, madonnas) versus disrespected (whores). WoC can't technically be a whores, because the use of the term implies that WoCs bodies would have some other, more proper use in broader society, and that they are expected to have some agency over that use.

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  62. maybe it's like chris rock said. "black women don't find white men attractive"

    so why put them in ad's directed at white men?

    believe me. 90% of white guys wish black girls would date us. WE DON'T CARE! they do and i'm sure there's a good reason whatever it is.

    but unless you want to waste your advertising budget in the name of equal opportunity objectification there's no point.

    it is racist that they direct the ad's at white men almost exclusively.

    don't many black guys drink beer?

    i know nothing that simple would fly on here but...i'm in advertising so i know the objective is actually just to make money not "propagate the white power agenda or whatever"

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  63. jas0n wrote,

    .i'm in advertising so i know the objective is actually just to make money not "propagate the white power agenda or whatever"

    "Whatever"?

    I'm sure you've heard this before, but it's effects that matter, not intentions (or "objectives"). Racist advertising DOES perpetuate white power, whether you care about that or not (and since you don't seem to, I really wonder why you bother reading and commenting here).

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