Monday, December 28, 2009

only date non-white people

A reader who prefers to remain anonymous sent the following email; for the sake of convenience, let's call her L. I added my response below, and we both welcome yours in the Comments. (I gave the post a different title from the one that L suggests below, because I think her situation exemplifies a broader phenomenon.)
 

I enjoying reading your blog over here in the UK. I think your approach to the discourses on race and white privilege is necessary, interesting and relevant. Anyway, the reason I'm contacting you is because of a recent experience I've had. I was wondering if you could do a post on your blog entitled "Date a black girl and expect her to be grateful." Or perhaps just post my email, I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are on this.

I'm a black woman in my mid twenties in London, and recently I was involved with a white guy also in his twenties. I'm pretty open minded about who I date, having dated black, asian and white men.

To cut a long story short, this guy and I were friends first, but he pursued me pretty doggedly for about two years. . . . I think this guy suffered from a white superiority complex and a white saviour complex. He seems to exclusively prefer women of colour. Now there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, but when he started making comments like "I hate white women," alarm bells went off. Also, he was forever rushing to the aid of black damsels in distress (usually only good looking ones), always through the guise of the magazine, but then lamenting over how much he helps black people.

Our relationship was tempestuous. He claims that I hate white people and was constantly finding racism in everything. Not true, I hate racism and oppression and I was very vocal about it. I thought it was positive that I felt comfortable enough with him to talk about this, but his interpretation was that I made him feel bad, guilty about his race and privilege, and that it was all so "draining."

He was like a jekyl and hyde character, very nice when he wanted to be but verbally and emotionally abusive if things were't going his way. He was capable of saying anything in an argument, racially loaded and offensive comments, but whenever I'd pull him up on it, after the red mist had cleared he would pretend as though he never said those things.

It was absolutely shocking, the response would be "How can you accuse me of that? Didn't I tell you that I hired that PR girl from the Carribbean, and one of our picture editors is from Cambodia for God's sake! Look how I champion the plights of people of colour! I could have an easy life and just care about the cash, but I put myself on the line!" I lost count of the number of times this was said, as though he got some sort of validation out of it.

Also, he often acted as if he knew more about the black experience than I did. I found this completely patronizing. He would say things like "you really should get hold of Franz Fanon's Black Skin White Masks" (even though he already knew I owned a copy). He would nauseatingly try to behave as if he was some sort of expert, as if he had experienced what it was like to be black in a Eurocentric society, when in fact he was clueless.

Also, if we were out and happened to see other interracial couples made up of a white male and black woman, I noticed something interesting. He didn't like it and would say things like, "That guy's only doing it to be rebellious, everyone's mixing it up these days." He would always discredit the motives of the men, as if he was the only white guy in the world that had genuinely honourable interests in black women. It was almost as though he thought he was unique somehow, and when confronted with the reality that he wasn't, he didn't like it. Those other white guys were somehow stealing his shine.

Things came to a head when he asked me out one weekend and I turned him down. He later bumped into me with a male friend of mine who happens to be asian. Now I repeat, this guy was just a friend, but he went completely nuts. He bombarded me with some of the most vitriolic, shocking emails, voice messages and texts I've seen, including telling me that my friend was "fucking ugly," and how dare I be seen out with an asian guy, that most black women would laugh at me for it, and at least with him being white, people would take me more seriously. I'm not kidding, he actually said that.

Now bear in mind that I've been selective about what I've told you, but there were other hideous, shocking things that were said. Suffice to say this guy and I are no longer involved.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this Macon, thanks for taking the time to read this.

----

[UPDATE: Please see the comments for this post regarding problems with my response below; I may soon edit the response below accordingly, and/or do a follow-up post about what seems to be a common white tendency that I wasn't aware of, something like "administer amateur psychiatric diagnoses" ~macon]

[UPDATE II: My response to L's email has been deemed so ineffective and full of fail by a series of commenters that I've come to admire and trust that I've followed suggestions and deleted it. I'll decide soon whether to repost it in a revised version, or to discuss what was wrong with it in a followup post, or to just leave it deleted. If you'd like a sense of what went wrong, you could probably gather that from the comments. ~macon]

[UPDATE III: If you'd like an even better sense of what went wrong, I re-posted for the record my original response to L in the comment section for this post, beginning here. I also address more fully the common white tendency that I unwittingly displayed in that response -- the tendency to offer amateur diagnoses of mental illness -- in this blog's next post. ~macon]

75 comments:

  1. Can I just say thank you for this?

    I'm a gay white woman in her early 30's whose majority of ex's have been women of colour. Not because I am particularly attracted to any perceived physical differences, but rather because it is so much a part of my background too, I tend to be attracted to those people with really juxtaposed multiple cultural backgrounds and experiences.

    But I've been asked repeatedly if I prefer women of colour, as though this is something as a white person that is a preference in much the same way as my being attracted only to women is a preference. I don't see it as that way at all, but I do think we need more discussions on the nature of interracial dating in western society, particularly since it seems like so many white people do it, and then yet think that it either absolves them of white privilege or that their white privilege doesn't exist at all (not to mention, the added gender dynamics in heterosexual relationships).

    You're right, regardless of mental diagnosis, the guy above sounds like he has some major personality issues, and has fixated on race as a way of playing them out. That aside, I do wish we had MORE discussion of the changes that are occurring in our society regarding the increasing acceptance of interracial dating, but yet also have so far to go.

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  2. When I have dated white people in the past, I have found white privelege to present itself in different ways. Not in the ignorant ways race was discussed, but in the ways that race was ignored.

    Growing up in Chicago, which is very segregated.. it showed itself by damn near refusal to go out to eat or to the movies in my (all black) neighborhood and instead either driving ALL the way back to their white neighborhoods or into one of the more integrated neighborhoods.

    It meant us hanging out more with their friends and family, and not with mine... just more of me compromising and being more accomodating because my companions felt more comfortable or had more fun in their world. Without ever recognizing that I wasn't always comfortable with them or the racial implications that led to them feeling so much more comfortable when they were a part of the majority and not the minority.


    I think a lot of white people expect the same kinds of accommodations in relationships with people of color (whether romantic or platonic) without ever thinking about the way it makes PoC feel.

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  3. (Think my first comment might have gotten eaten along with that first falafel)

    Firstly - major props on surviving and getting rid of that douchebag, and thanks muchly for speaking out about your experience.

    Secondly - Macon, with all due respect, you should really hold the phone on your NPD diagnosis for numerous serious reasons, which I'll break down soon as I finish this other falafel...

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  4. For a minute there, I wondered if my ex had moved to the UK, but then the poster got to the part about him criticizing other White men with WoC. My NPD abuser seemed to prefer WM/BW couples to all others. But then, he did criticize some WM in them as being all about using BW for sex while he was somehow much more noble.

    It's maddening to be with an NPD abuser because most of the time, at the time you don't know they have NPD. So the experience can really fuck you up. I didn't escape from my relationship with that asshole unscathed.

    White folk with NPD may also target PoC as partners because they think they can get a good one cheap. I told my ex via letter when we broke up that he didn't go after WW because he knew a WW of my caliber would not give him the time of day and he accepted that as common sense. Yet, he wanted a beautiful, young, thin, educated BW while he was none of those.

    I too could on and on about my NPD ex, but suffice it to say, I feel the sista.

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  5. Only the other day a white, English lady who lives in my neighbourhood and I were talking and she told me, quite proudly, that she only ever dates black men. She seemed quite proud to proclaim this - I think she really thought it would impress me or something. Of course I just smiled politely; but people like her will then often claim in the next breath that "they don't see colour or they are colour-blind." But if you only ever date one type of man based on their skin colour, isn't that exactly the same thing as seeing colour?
    Also, as a black woman I would never, ever date a white man who made comments like "I hate white women." I would avoid them like the plague. They are absolutely no different from black men who hate black women.

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  6. Macon, I think the guy in question was a real piece, but I too would caution you against the medicalization of unpleasant behavior, especially if you've had no training in applying that sort of analysis. One doesn't need to suffer from NPD to simply be an unreflective asshole.

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  7. there is just no way to be in an interracial relationship without talking about race, period. and for white people, that means listening more than talking. if you want to be with someone, you have to be with all of that person--no matter what situation you're in. we all have privilege in some way or another, whether that's gender, race, class, sexuality or ability, and undoubtedly, you are never going to be in the exact same place as your partner about everything. i think it just comes down to respect. really loving your partner means valuing their lives and their experiences. i mean this is true of any interpersonal relationship, not just romantic situations, but it is especially potent when you're intimate with someone.

    no matter how anti-racist (or -sexist/-classist/-homophobic, etc) you may think you are, if someone you love and value is telling you that you are being offensive, you probably are. let's be real. white people, you do not get brownie points for dating a person of color. they are probably better off without you if that's how you're going to treat them.

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  8. There should be a sub-category of racism and other "isms" that describes the person as one who will go to great lengths to help those in a disadvantaged group, but cannot relate to them when they are social, economic, or educational equals.

    Two whites immediately come to mind who I met in the late '80s as a social worker. One was a male teacher of impoverish urban high school kids. I had the misfortune of sitting next to him at a table in a dance sponsored by a Catholic dating group. I thought it would be racially mixed, but I was the only non-white and black person who showed up. I came a little late and not a soul was sitting on either side of him, so I thought, why not? I'll talk to him.

    He told me all about his career and how helpful he is, and how he's "seen everything". As the evening wore on, no one else connected with him nor I, and I sat next to him again. This time he looked around, as though hoping some white woman would show interest in him. Then he turned to me and asked with anger, "Why'd you come here anyway? Aren't there some black Catholic groups you could go to?"

    Asshole.

    The other asshole was an attorney all of my collegues despised and new well. This bitch acted like the Great White Hope representing black foster children - but treated the black social workers who worked far more and much longer with those kids and better understood their needs - like dirt. She never missed an opportunity to play the adversarial role with any of us.

    The clue in dealing with these kinds of people is how they treat their equals of a different race or color. They're a mixed bag in the world: on one hand the lengths they go to to help the disadvantaged (whether minorities or women), are great, but then they undermine trust by treating shabbily those who have made it.

    Would I call it NPD? Not necessarily, although that kind of described behavior has features of the disorder.

    I think there's also an obsessive or fetish quality about it, like you see in some black men who will only white women, or white men who will only date natural blondes. This is a 'blonde-worshipping' culture, so it's easy to mistake that behavior for a 'preference'.

    The pretty blonde in our culture gives a man an elevated social status. The man described sounds like he's after a different kind of status: as a rescuer. It probably makes him feel good, like he's contributing to the world - but it sounds like he sabotages it by an inability to think of or treat an equal as an equal.

    And for this, I'd give him FUPD - Fucked Up Personality Disorder.

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  9. @witchsista why did you give your ex the time of day? He sounds like a loser you had little in ocmmon with. Did he get a pass from you because he was white?

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  10. I haven't ever known anyone in this situation, on either side, so I got nothin' on that (except that I think it's insane to think that a white person is somehow "dating down" to be with a POC).

    I'm also really glad L and Witchsistah got away from these assholes, regardless of whatever it was that made them be assholes.

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  11. Yeah, Heizenpenzer. That was it EXACTLY. You know me sooooooooooooo well.

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  12. Yum yum! Falafel finished, pattycakes washed. Onward!

    So! -Reasons why a white dude who happens to lack training or experience in psychology and mental health should probably stave off diagnosing anyone in an interracial relationship context:

    1. It is irresponsible to pathologize white supremacist behavior as mentally disordered rather than opposing it per se directly as oppressive and white supremacist. These are bad and pressing enough without having to sprinkle on a clinical veneer of dubious scientific origin. Psychopathology serves a longstanding tradition of derailing in race debate - but then, at least you're pathologizing the oppressor as opposed to the oppressed.

    I'm certainly not denying the possibility that the white supremacist douchebag in question isn't also a narcissist, HOWEVER...

    2. ...are you not kinda doing the White Person Center Stage act here, albeit in a subtle/unconscious way? "I have had run-ins myself with people who pretty clearly suffered with NPD, so I've learned a thing or two about the disorder... The apparent NPD sufferers that I've known were basically actors." etc. We don't know anything about Douchebag's personal mental condition because L. doesn't comment on it; rather (and I believe she's entirely right on the money), she's contextualizing his disturbing behavior in the broader sense of interracial relationships. I am not castigating you at all, for L. did seek a personal response, but a gentle reminder of "White Center Stage" omnipresence is valid given that you admit to nothing but anecdotal experience in psychopathology and L.'s letter didn't focus on clinical disorders.

    3. As a transracial adoptee who's also been trapped in the foster care system, I can identify another widespread yet little reported upon thing "stuff White people do," and that is diagnose people with mental disorders without any requisite clinical experience or even face time with the 'patient' in question.
    Again, this case is obviously a bit different, but I argue that we'd all be a helluva lot better off if they could simply refrain from such behavior. I know this feels too specific, but bear with for a sec...
    See, polite folks are gobsmacked whenever they catch some wind of how transracial (often transnational) adoptees are casually diagnosed with serious mental afflictions via e-mail, phone or a f*cking fax machine. It's hard for people to see the racial significance because this epidemic is such a clusterbomb of intersectionality - those who suffer most being the most vulnerable members of society: orphaned; children; nonwhite; impoverished; abused; traumatized; disabled; sometimes all simultaneously but NOT all the time - it's crucial to make this distinction in order to fight fear and prejudice of us savage alien baby hordes as automatically "broken" and unhealthy in comparison to all the nicely domestic, breeder cherubs.
    But that's a whole other bag that can't be at all adequately conveyed in one comment or several, so lemme just say that this casual invocation of psychopathology does lend itself to oppression of nonwhites, particularly those among us who had the gall to lose our parents one way or another. The adoption industry and foster care system trafficks heavily in lucrative brands of junk science and quack diagnoses.

    And it's funny how if someone like me with my experiences were to go around diagnosing white folks at the drop of a hat, I'd be tarred and feathered.
    But a white person, especially a white dude, can do so with impunity.

    Anyway, if you still insist on the NPD focus, then may I suggest that you are not going far enough when you say "Whiteness itself encourages narcissistic behavior." It would make more sense to identify Whiteness AS narcissistic behavior.

    Just substitute it for NPD and nonwhites for "other."

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  13. I have more to write about this later, but for now, I just have to say, @Heizenpenzer - your questioning of Witchsistah's motive for dating that guy is uncalled for. (Perhaps there was a better way to word it, I dunno.) Many have dated jerks before of whatever color. If nobody ever dates jerks, then most of us would be in a long term relationship with our very first date. We make mistakes and we learn, hopefully.

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  14. Fromthetropics,

    Hence my bitchy response that "inquiry" deserved.

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  15. @Witchsistah: I didn't think it was bitchy, I thought it was righteous and damn near genial.

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  16. L thanks for writing. Scary stuff. It makes the word "Ally" kinda worthless don't you think? It's like the stories I always hear about "social justice advocates" who rape. What do we do when we can't trust our allies? Stories like this make me want to work harder to "make up" for the damage guys and white allies do.

    And I second Commie Bastard. This argument about mental disorder reminds me of the "I have a black friend so I can't be racist" argument

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  17. Hey I'm a long time lurker and an occasional poster. I would have to agree with Commie on Macon D, diagonosing other people of mental disorders. I think the guy is just a hipster liberal racist with a mighty whitey complex. To say he has NPD to me is a cop out on his racism. It's kind of parallel to how people see "racism is natural" when it is not it just social contructed in White supremacy. Whiteness is rooted in superioty complexes that causes narcisstic behaviors-but to say he has NPD is inappropriate.

    The reason of that is because if you don't have any experience in mental health or in psychotheraphy to access someone than you should leave it alone. I am a psychology major and many professors are quite clear on people to not access anyone or yourself on diagnosing if you don't have any experience. Not only that this young lady that sent you this e-mail only discusses the situations of his narcissitic behavior in a racial context or situations. We don't know how is in other settings, especially since we don't know him. We only know of him. So it is best to leave the pscyhotherapy alone Macon D ;-) He is just hipster racist with common white savior complexes that comes from social contructed white supremacy.

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  18. I completely agree with you, Commie Bastard, and I wanted to add a few of my own points:

    1) Macon hasn't actually known anyone with NPD, just people he's suspected of having it due to his own preconceived notions of what a person with NPD is like.

    2) There's also a very big gendered component to it. In people with the same symptoms, males are most likely to be diagnosed with NPD, while females are most likely to be diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder.

    3) Stuff White People Do: Clinicize Asshole Behavior. By making everything a medical diagnosis ("My son isn't a spoiled bastard, he has Oppositional Defiance Disorder!") you are diminishing the blame and personal responsibility that the person in question should be accepting responsibility for. If a PoC is a raging asshole, it's "Oh those damn [insert slur]s!" If a white person is a raging asshole it's "Man, that guy is bipolar!"

    4) It's incredibly insensitive to the millions of us living with mental illness. We're not bad or "psycho", we're normal people with medical conditions.

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  19. Kit wrote,

    Would I call it NPD? Not necessarily, although that kind of described behavior has features of the disorder. . . . I'd give him FUPD - Fucked Up Personality Disorder.

    Commie Bastard wrote,

    Reasons why a white dude who happens to lack training or experience in psychology and mental health should probably stave off diagnosing anyone in an interracial relationship context . . .

    IzumiBayani wrote,

    And I second Commie Bastard. This argument about mental disorder reminds me of the "I have a black friend so I can't be racist" argument

    Commie Bastard also wrote,

    Anyway, if you still insist on the NPD focus, then may I suggest that you are not going far enough when you say "Whiteness itself encourages narcissistic behavior." It would make more sense to identify Whiteness AS narcissistic behavior.

    Thanks to all so far (including Lady Dani Mo and Cloudy) for your input on my pulling NPD into a post about a white man's bizarre and nasty behavior. No, I won't insist on the NPD focus.

    I didn't think I was "diagnosing" the white man written about by L -- the post contains warnings that I'm not doing that, and that instead, his behavior reminds me of people I've known with NPD, so I thought L might benefit from looking into it as a possibility. I can see that I should have put it that way more strongly, or even better, just left NPD out of my response.

    I know that intentions matter little compared to effects, but, here I go anyway: I mainly suggested that NPD might be the case with this bloke because I wanted to steer the post toward, as Commie Bastard put it, how "whiteness itself encourages narcissistic behavior." I also agree that it "It would make more sense to identify Whiteness AS narcissistic behavior." And, I also agree that more of the post should have said all that about whiteness/common white ways, and less of it should have applied amateur psychology from a person (me) with no such training.

    I do think that the collective white consciousness, if there is such a thing, has something like NPD. However, I'm probably not qualified to diagnose that either; I can now see that it's inappropriate to make that kind of analytical leap from L's personal situation; and it would likely trivialize suffering caused by actual NPD and other disorders.

    My apologies for this misstep.

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  20. @ Commie Bastard:

    Thank you! Macon D has displayed similar behaviour in the past (such as making psychological conclusions about others based on anecdotal experience), which I have criticized in a post called White people like writing as ‘experts’ on non-white cultures (2008).

    Note to Macon D: I know you are debating whether or not to publish this comment, since this is the type of comment that you didn't publish in the past, calling it "derailing". But once again, if someone is pointing out your white tendencies, it is inappropriate to say that it is off-topic to what you want to talk about--those other white people--if unmaking your whiteness is more important than maintaining your image as an anti-racist.

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  21. I'm glad that Commie Bastard posted that about the white tendency to diagnose people with mental disorders without having any qualification to do so. I do that *often* and I hadn't really thought about it until just now. I don't always say it out loud but I definitely think it often. I have taken many psych courses but there's not a chance in the world I'm qualified to dish out a diagnosis of any sort, yet I do it all the time. And I often do it TO white people so I can write them off as this or that. I can see now that what that does is inhibits my vision of white tendencies that are actually explainable as white tendencies.

    I know absolutely nothing about the subject going on in the original post except that it sounds like a terrible experience. I'm pleased to hear that you and other women on the site have gotten themselves out of these situations and I'm glad I read it and the comments which followed.

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  22. When Whites only date non-white people could it be seen as a form of conquering the other person as though it's about the thrill of "owning them"?

    (Not to derail: but just an observation, whites do tend to "diagnose" other whites with an illness, while stating the POCs are just being themselves. Jerk tendencies are just that jerk tendencies).

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  23. Restructure and Victoria,

    Yes, I am interested in unmaking my own whiteness, an effort which for me takes the form of understanding, and then stopping, my own enactment of common white tendencies (and I don't especially care about maintaining my "image as an antiracist," since I'm writing incognito, and I'm not even sure that I am "an antiracist," i.e., someone who's actually doing something that lessens rather that increases racism -- I wouldn't know how to measure that).

    I hadn't realized that offering quick and spurious mental diagnoses is a common white thing, so thank you, I'll be thinking about that.

    So far, I wonder: is it really something that non-white people don't do? Or, is it more that, when white people do it, they're doing it in some particularly "white" way? If white people do it more than non-white people do, then why is that?

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  24. Students:

    Your new vocabulary word is intersectionality. I want a 10-page paper analyzing at least 3 overlapping systems of oppression by next week. And no extensions!

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  25. Macon,

    In my experience, POCs are actually reluctant (if not averse) to diagnose mental illness or psychological conditions.

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  26. @Commie and Cloudy

    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! reading Macon's comments confused the hell out of me because it seemed to be grasping at straws... in the same way that my students routinely get diagnosed in two problematic ways by my white colleagues...

    the students of color who have issues, and some who don't, are given reasons why they have them (abuse at home, no male role model, poverty, family in prison, gangs in the family) When pressed for the evidence or support for this causation there is none. but i guess any problems they may have must be attributed to the messed up PoC raising them.

    My white students are diagnosed with mental health disorders as a way to make us have sympathy for them... They are suggested to be tested for ADHD or ADD. Referred to the psychologist etc etc etc Some students have been reevaluated 4 and 5 times in a search for a diagnosis by someone (ANYONE) of autism or adhd or add or bipolar or oppositional defiant disorder... Sometimes it's at the parents urging and sometimes it's spearheaded by the school... These white students with labels and supports in place for them display the same behaviors or deficiencies as the SoC who are deemed as a lost cause oftentimes because "there is simply no support in the home, so what can we do?"

    argh.. this has so beautifully explained something that has confounded me for the past 2 years.. and something i knew was wrong, and now I have been armed with the ability to articulate it when i go back to work.

    Thank you again.

    Ooooh and I can't forget how the diagnosis then takes accountability off of the parents of my white students and I am so often reminded in conferences that Jack has ADHD etc and thus I simply must deal with his myriad of distracting behaviors.

    P.S. this is in no way saying that those mental health issues do not exist in children, in some of my students or that they shouldn't be dealt with appropriately by all stakeholders.

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  27. Macon, I don't know how much this matters since I can't speak for a PoC, but I can say that I've never once had a PoC partake in diagnosing with me unless we were actually IN a psych class together or there was some specific reason to diagnose (prior knowledge of something already diagnosed or something like that). And it wasn't due to lack of opportunity. I'm quick to believe that it's mainly a white thing.

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  28. Commie Bastard is on the money, and Lady Dani Mo's phrase, "mighty whitey complex" is just great and has me chuckling; maybe we can call that kind of behavior Mighty Whitey Personality Disorder.

    But back to Commie. Macon, he or she has some helluva good points, particularly Stuff White People Do: give clinical diagnosis even though they have no training to minorities, then scoff when the reverse happens to them.

    This is no slight on you, nor have you done this to a non-white on your blog. People using pop psychology is rampant in this culture, but I do hear it a lot more coming from white folks in their pathologizing blacks, Native Americans, Mexicans, Jews, and any other group they don't like, especially those who are in close proximity to them.

    Now that would make for a very interesting post.

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  29. Thanks for the post and discussion on interracial relationships and navigating the dangerous waters of discussions of race, gender, etc. Several weeks ago, out of desperation, I googled for such a forum of discussion. I was looking specifically for interracial relationships, support and advice in more than just how to navigate the cultural misunderstandings. I wanted a discussion of how power exists in a relationship and how race and gender may affect that balance of power. I found none, of course. So thanks again for this discussion on interracial relationships.

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  30. Perhaps that should be a future posting on Stuff White People Do -- Diagnose People With Mental Illness Without Any Professional Training. I knew it was something people did a lot on the Internet, it just never occurred to me until this discussion that could be a White People thing.

    It might also be interesting to explore the phenomenon that some mentioned here of White people who are saintly when it comes to dealing with PoC in need of 'rescuing' but a little less so when it comes to dealing with PoC as genuine equals. (Or has that been done?) Certainly the letter that started this discussion rings of it--Mighty Whitey is so proud of the way he hires PoC (and is therefore above them) but gets a bit tichy when his girlfriend insists on living life on her own terms instead of bowing to his every need.

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  31. Man, I didn't know such a disorder existed. He just sounded like a mighty jackass to me. And yeah, jackasses can do damage to you emotionally.

    And I didn't know that using pop psychology was a common (white) tendency. I think I've done some similar things myself, but not towards groups of people, but towards individuals (regardless of color)...but I now see how damaging that can be. So thanks for pointing this out.

    cl said: I wanted a discussion of how power exists in a relationship and how race and gender may affect that balance of power.

    Yeah, I’m interested in it too. In fact, recently I’ve been pondering over the candid comment cl made here . I really have a lot more to say, but I can’t put my thoughts together on this just yet…argh

    >Also, he often acted as if he knew more about the black experience than I did. I found this completely patronizing.

    Of course it’s patronizing.

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  32. Ughhh, L, KIT, and witchsistah, I am
    a) Glad that you escaped those relationships/situations and
    b) Sorry you had to go through them in the first place.

    L, your BF sounds like a real prince. I'm sort of wondering though, why exactly do "allies" even feel the need to masquerade as allies? Do they seriously think that that's what they are, or do they just think it's like, a quirk or something that they can choose to play with while the rest of us have our lives adversely affected EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

    I would also just like to point out that being a racist, narcissistic asshole and having a mental illness are not mutually exclusive. I acknowledge that Macon's "diagnosis" was problematic, but I don't think it is for the reason that posters have pointed out here, that is, try to make L's ex seem less culpable. But, you can be racist and also be suffering from a mental illness. One doesn't absolve you from the other.

    I also want to point out that L's boyfriend reminds me an AWFUL lot of this asshole.

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  33. ps. the guy is a jackass AND he's racist. It doesn't matter if he's doing all that anti-racist activist work. It really doesn't mean squat. You can still be racist in many ways. Like I said elsewhere, just coz a man marries a woman, it doesn't make him any less sexist. Whether a man is less sexist or not has nothing to do with whether or not he's with a woman. Same goes with racism. Anti-racist activist credentials don't always reflect ppl's inner attitudes.

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  34. macon, for someone who claims he's trying to unlearn his own whiteness, I find it curious that you haven't listened to any of us, defended your entry despite being dead wrong, and have not edited your entry. That's just arrogance.

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  35. Cloudy, to the contrary, I'm listening intently. I explained the entry in a comment above, and why I wrote it as I did (although it's problematic, as I acknowledged, to discuss intentions rather than focus exclusively on effects); I don't see those as a "defense" of the entry, but rather an explanation of where I was going with the post (a place that Commie Bastard suggested, a place where white narcissism resides). I also apologized for the post. I also added a corrective update to the post, and outlined there future potential courses of action on my part. (I may edit the entry, as you say I should, when I find time for that.) Yes, being a white male is a "subject position" that can prompt unwittingly arrogant behavior, no doubt. Do let me know what further steps you think I should take to mitigate or counteract my arrogance.

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  36. Well how about this... you say you "may" edit the entry "when [you] have time", yet you had time to write a reply to my comment and add a half-hearted disclaimer.

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  37. @ macon d

    Okay, I read here a lot among other blogs. I've commented a couple times, but haven't really been an active participant in the comment threads.

    I'm white, too. So I have a question for those of us who are also white (and I'm going to use your words when formulating this question, because they're right here and easy to access).

    Why do we write things like this:
    "I know that intentions matter little compared to effects, but, here I go anyway..."

    Is this similar in any way to the "I'm not racist, but..." meme?

    Now, I know they're different in a lot of ways, but maybe both statements are couching a problematic behavior in benign language. Is it even useful for us to explain where we were coming from? Might it be only useful for us, but not useful at all to the people of color we've silenced--

    And I guess this might be more of a general question derived from my thinking about this type of language rather than a specific your words in the original post, because as Kit points out-- and I agree-- you weren't diagnosing/pathologizing a person of color... But still, I see now (and I didn't before reading the comments from Commie Bastard) that the white tendency to diagnose is a silencing thing that intends to ignore or wipe away the shared pathology of whiteness.

    Anyway, does this make sense to anyone else? Why do we try to explain ourselves rather than just acknowledge and apologize? Is explaining ever helpful? Because a lot times it seems only hurtful... Anyway, even though I'm using macon d's words as my example, I'm really thinking of myself.

    As I've become more aware of my own racism, I'm also thinking about what my responsibility is for past hurts I've caused. I don't know that an explanation serves any good for anyone other than me. And that's trouble right there.

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  38. Macon,

    Seriously, just do the damn thing and give us an update. :P

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  39. @Everyone:

    See what Kinsley just said? That's the type of stuff thoughtful, heartfelt, in-depth discussions are made of.

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  40. I gotta say, macon, I think Cloudy got you good here.

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  41. @RVCBard

    must... resist... cookies...

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  42. @Kinsley:

    Is it even useful for us to explain where we were coming from?

    TBH, usually, no. Most of the time, when words happen before deeds, they usually happen instead of deeds.

    That's not to say that words aren't important, or that intentions don't matter, but it's vital that intentions, words, and actions are consistent with one's proclaimed values. Otherwise, I can't determine if you're honestly trying or are slipping behind the shield of Well-Meaning White Person to excuse shitty behavior.

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  43. "Anyway, does this make sense to anyone else? Why do we try to explain ourselves rather than just acknowledge and apologize? Is explaining ever helpful?"

    Explaining is sometimes ok as part of an apology IF you take action and admit your mistakes. Otherwise it's just arrogant and dismissive.

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  44. Ahh, the shifting borders of blame and science. Personally, my take is that all behavior can be explained scientifically, and in that context blame is irrelevant. But blame can be useful as a social tool. To blame is to assign responsibility in the context of wrongdoing.

    In Western culture (though perhaps mostly among whites?), science is considered to redeem by taking away responsibility, at the cost of agency - as if a person whose actions can be explained scientifically is not a real person. As if they have no soul. Hence the dichotomy of diagnosis and blame. Hence many commenters' inclination to blame by not diagnosing.

    I agree with Doreen. He can be mentally ill AND racist, and that's how I read Macon's post. After all, racism is a system, right? It's not just about individual actions. Neurotypical or not, we're all part of a white supremacist system.

    In terms of disabled persons and disableism (ableism?), I can see how pop-science, uninformed diagnoses can be highly problematic, but if the point here is to observe and understand white behaviors and the system of white supremacy, I don't see why it matters whether L's jerk of an ex is neurotypical or not. Either way, his behavior illustrates some of the dynamics of racial issues.

    For example, as several people have noted, it's clear that he considered black women somehow cheaper than other women, and thought better of himself for deigning to date them. Which has got to be such a mindfuck. As a human being, L deserves better than that.

    And it's a great reminder for white people not to congratulate ourselves for having friends or coworkers or S.O.'s of color. That's all too easy to fall into - I think because the norm is a low bar, if you see what I mean. I had a boyfriend once who was of color, and although I don't think I was anywhere near as much of a jerk about it as L's ex, I have sometimes considered myself more progressive because of it. That was especially easy because of some stupid things relatives and friends said - compared to them, I am progressive. By itself, dating someone of another race is a neutral thing, but by comparison it looks enlightened because the system of white supremacy so often keeps white people dating within their race. It's in that context that this jerk's brand of jerkitude can even exist.

    Or perhaps the systematic approach is also a way to deny white responsibility for POC suffering? I don't think it is - or rather, I do, but at the same time I think it's a useful way to look at racial dynamics - but I'd be interested to know what others think about that.

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  45. @Kinsley,

    I agree, and I do my best now to not explain what I meant to say or do when I mess up -- just apologize, and listen to the subjugated other, and follow their directions as best I can, if they're willing to offer them. I only tried to explain this post because I think it does make a broader point about common white ways (in particular, white narcissism), but I realize now that even that was arrogant. Oops, there I go, explaining again! It's a tough habit to break. Thank you for the reminder.

    @Julia -- Yes, she (?) sure did!

    Cloudy said...

    Well how about this... you say you "may" edit the entry "when [you] have time", yet you had time to write a reply to my comment and add a half-hearted disclaimer.

    My apologies for a further burst of arrogance.

    Half-hearted? Okay, sorry about that. What would you prefer it say, and how would you prefer it be phrased?

    Yes, I may/might edit the post when I have time, or I might write a follow-up post instead. Or, I might do something else corrective instead. Deciding which to do, and then doing it, will take more time than writing a comment or two here, and I don't have that much time this afternoon. Although you wrote that I should edit it, I wrote that I "may" (that is, might) do so, because I don't think that's the only option toward correcting my mistake and my arrogance -- I may do something else instead. My apologies if that wasn't clear, and I hope this clears that up; if not, I would appreciate your letting me know what remains, er, cloudy for you.

    If I'm still being arrogant and unwittingly white in some way here, I would appreciate your letting me know. I would also appreciate any further suggestions for corrective behavior (but please don't think I'm asking for any of that -- I know that finding those answers is really my job -- I'm only saying in advance that I'll appreciate whatever you have to offer, and that I welcome it).

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  46. @ Cloudy

    Thanks for your answer. I'm thinking a bunch about that "sometimes ok as part of an apology IF you take action..."



    @ RVC Bard

    Thank you also for your answer. This part especially is sticking with me: "I can't determine if you're honestly trying or are slipping behind the shield of Well-Meaning White Person to excuse shitty behavior." To me that really answers a lot of the question of whether an explanation is useful.



    More and more it seems to me that with whiteness, the impulse to explain and the act of derailing/taking center stage/etc do sit awfully close together. I think it would be a real challenge for me to offer an explanation that was completely divorced from "slipping behind the shield" as RVC Bard puts it. Even if I admitted my mistake and took whatever appropriate action was needed to correct it... I'm starting to think that offering explanation could be too loaded an act and that it's best avoided-- as a general rule, maybe...

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  47. I dunno, macon, will appreciate what others have to say but my immediate reaction is that this---

    Yes, I may/might edit the post when I have time, or I might write a follow-up post instead. Or, I might do something else corrective instead. Deciding which to do, and then doing it, will take more time than writing a comment or two here, and I don't have that much time this afternoon. Although you wrote that I should edit it, I wrote that I "may" (that is, might) do so, because I don't think that's the only option toward correcting my mistake and my arrogance -- I may do something else instead.

    --is perhaps arrogant and unwittingly white.

    It seems like immediate corrective action that does not merely involve apologizing is what has been called for here. i can imagine that it would take considerable time to rewrite a post. i don't imagine, though, that it would take much time to simply remove the parts that offend. if your hesitation to revise has to do with your need for blog posts to appear polished (which I understand completely, and have trouble letting go of myself) and completley finished, i wonder if this is a case in which you should just suck it up?

    In general, I would say that saying you are going to do something corrective, but not specifying what that is or when you will do it, is not very convincing or reassuring (although I have no doubt that you really mean it).

    I mean this to be helpful. I hope it is.

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  48. @Cloudy: Don't hold your breath waiting for Macon D to correct problematic posts. He still hasn't corrected "shake hands our way", which has been criticized over a year ago (along with other posts), and he is aware of the criticisms. And "shake hands our way" is actually about the psychology of non-white people (i.e., our preferences, which he derives from "watching hundreds of people shake hands").

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  49. Yes, thanks Julia, that is helpful. I "sucked it up" and took "immediate [tho belated] corrective action" by deleting my response to L's email. Thanks again to everyone for your help with explaining the failures of this post. In the future, I'll do my best to respond more quickly to readers' notifications of failure on my part.

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  50. You could also use strikeout so that there is evidence for white people in the future who think we PoC complain too much.

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  51. Thank you for the suggestion Restructure (though I find many-paragraphs-long items of that sort difficult to read). I could also post it as a comment, with an advisory warning of sorts linked to it in a post.

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  52. I KNEW whiteness would work its way toward this weakly-veiled favor for clinicization (even in the galling absence of credentials), which is why I made sure to include this bald sentence:

    I'm certainly not denying the possibility that the white supremacist douchebag in question isn't also a narcissist, HOWEVER...

    Lemme break it down again in a way that might actually get through.

    NEITHER I NOR OTHER PoC WHO'VE COMMENTED HAVE DISALLOWED FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF NPD. WE ARE POINTING OUT HOW INAPPROPRIATE IT IS TO CLINICIZE WHITE SUPREMACIST BEHAVIOR WHEN THE WHITE PERSON WHO IS DOING THE CLINICIZING HAS NO PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE, TRAINING OR REAL FAMILIARITY WITH THE "PATIENT" IN QUESTION.

    This especially goes for you, bluey52.

    In terms of disabled persons and disableism (ableism?), I can see how pop-science, uninformed diagnoses can be highly problematic, but if the point here is to observe and understand white behaviors and the system of white supremacy, I don't see why it matters whether L's jerk of an ex is neurotypical or not.

    Wow, I like how you set up your self-aggrandizing scheme so that you finally arrive at the conclusion that I and other PoC have been talking about all along, yet style it to make yourself seem like a sole beacon of guileless reason. That's advanced White Center Stageplay right there. Well done. *round of applause*

    FFS - at this point I don't even feel like sharing my personal experiences or counsel about the extra precautions WoC have to take just to steer clear of hypocritical fetishist douchebags like L's ex, or the fact that even if we DO cultivate a loving and enlightened relationship with a white person, the oppressive racial hurdles that manifested in abusive forms in L's relationship will inevitably be projected onto us from the outside by white privileged complacency that insists WoC "know our place" in the international scheme of white hegemony.

    Because all those experiences are just going to be overshadowed and made invisible again by whites who step in with "Ahhh" and pontificate, play semantics and profess interest in our suffering all the while rendering it completely abstract and ignoring the actual woman of color in the post on which they're laying their verbal pirouettes.

    You people wear on the soul.

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  53. Commie Bastard,

    Even if we do get away from an abuser, we'll inevitably be blamed for it as Heizenpenzer tried to do with me. Basically, I asked for abuse because I obviously gave a man a pass simply for being White. Even if you do that, I still don't think you deserve to be abused, but Heizen does. That's what the point of his dismissive, flippant, asshat of a question was about.

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  54. Commie, I rather like verbal pirouettes. Also abstract reasoning, pontification, and semantics.

    Those are the tools available to me, as a white person, for understanding (and communicating about) topics with which I have little personal experience. Like racism.

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  55. Wow, just wow. I've definitely known people like this too.

    I too, though, tend to date non-white people, and another strange phenomenon is the way in which white people seem to think this is pathological. I get asked occasionally, "why don't you like white men?" Um, I do like white men, just not particularly the majority of white Bostonian men, which is where I happen to live right now. Sue me.

    I missed the deleted comment thing, but I can say that I do think white people have a tendency to diagnose things. When I taught abroad, I had a white colleague who was constantly attempting to diagnose psychological disorders on our students (mind you, I think he was inspired somehow by the fact that we lived in a culture that doesn't really "do" psychology). Obnoxious, to say the least.

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  56. My response to L's email has been deemed so ineffective and full of fail by a series of commenters that I've come to admire and trust that I've followed suggestions and deleted it.

    Aaaaaand, clueless comments from White people telling Macon he shouldn't have let them uppity PoC push him around in 3 . . . 2. . .

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  57. @ macon d:

    and I don't especially care about maintaining my "image as an antiracist," since I'm writing incognito,

    But you once said to me, "what if I decide to publish some of the material that I’ve written on my blog?" and suggested that my use of scare quotes when referencing the assumptions behind your posts was maybe "legally actionable".

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  58. @ R,

    That was about the writing itself, not my own "image as an antiracist." I have no idea if what you were doing then is actionable or not; I raised that question because I was alarmed --shocked, in fact -- that you were putting quotation marks around words that I hadn't actually written.

    By the way, since you've decided to come back here and do some more sniping, I think a corrective of something you wrote above is in order:

    @Cloudy: Don't hold your breath waiting for Macon D to correct problematic posts.

    That's disingenuous. As you well know, I have corrected problematic posts in response to reader comments, sometimes in response to insightful corrections from you yourself. In fact, your very first comment here, on my fourth post, was of this sort (you pointed out that the post's title was sexist; I agreed, and so I changed it).

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  59. Hmm, sure does sound like NPD to me, with extra Racism Sauce thrown in. Yeah ,tho, who knows if that's his REAL problem. Still, I think it's worth getting that possibility out to L, who's likely suffering still if this person WAS an NPDer, unless she's incredibly strong (in which case, however, she'd likely never ended up dating him in the first place). The effects of relationships with an NPDer can be devestating. No matter who or what he was, I hope L is taking care of herself.

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  60. AE, you fail miserably in this discussion, and here's the main reason why:

    unless she's incredibly strong (in which case, however, she'd likely never ended up dating him in the first place).

    Way to derail this into a more clinical, backhanded round of victim blaming than your fellow ignoramus Heizenpenzer.

    Oh, and bluey512?

    Commie, I rather like verbal pirouettes. Also abstract reasoning, pontification, and semantics.
    Those are the tools available to me, as a white person, for understanding (and communicating about) topics with which I have little personal experience. Like racism.


    No, those are the tools available to white people who happen to be highly adept in ye olde Whitey Center Stage act.

    Also - 'understanding and communicating about', or masturbating and rendering abstract?

    One thing we agree on: you are not more progressive for dating a person of color.

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  61. "Commie, I rather like verbal pirouettes. Also abstract reasoning, pontification, and semantics.
    Those are the tools available to me, as a white person, for understanding (and communicating about) topics with which I have little personal experience. Like racism."

    Why do white people claim we have no experience with racism? We have tons of experience with racism. WE ARE THE ONES COMMITING IT! We're beyond experienced, we are adept. We know so much about racism that if we were honest with ourselves and everyone else, really fucking honest, we could uproot racism on our own, without having to be led through it by the hand by PoC who doubtless would rather be doing just about anything else, if only we could get with the program. It is OUR responsibility to work this out, not PoC.

    If a PoC gives us feedback we should listen for crying out loud, not argue. Your response to CommieBastard sounded pretty entightled. I too like to play semantics, et al, sort of debating our way to a common understanding, if you will. However CommieBastard made it clear that that's not how s/he wants to play. By responding with what was in essense a "But I wanna!", you were placing your interests ahead of hirs, denying CommieBastard's right to have an equal (or even authoritative) part in this discussion.

    It shouldn't matter if we agree with what PoC say to us, or if we like how they say it (and this applies to comments on alot of threads right now). Feedback is feedback, take it or leave it. But white people have been making the rest of the world hear what we think for a long ass time now, ignoring PoC. PoC shouldn't have to be arguing over acceptable/productive ways of talking to us. We should be hearing them no matter how they talk. If we want to disagree, perhaps first we should be giving them the dignity of having a voice in this discourse, by aknowledging what it is we are really disagreeing with. Maybe then the RVCBards of the world wouldn't get so pissed while trying to talk about this with us. Bluey, did you get CommieBastard's point, or did you just pontificate as I am doing to you now? (I had to look that one up, btw. It's a good vocab word.)

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  62. More and more it seems to me that with whiteness, the impulse to explain and the act of derailing/taking center stage/etc do sit awfully close together.

    I tend to notice the same thing.

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  63. Lutsen, I agree that white people have lots of personal experience with racism - though from the privileged side. What we don't have experience with is what racism looks like from the unprivileged side. That part we have to try and understand more analytically. At least, being an analytical sort of person, that is the way I approach it. Commie may not like this approach, but since we seem to agree on substance, that's akin to saying he/she has a problem my personality, which gets nothing more than a shrug from me.

    I also don't think Commie's criticisms made sense. I thought about the issue in my own way, came to a conclusion, and expressed my opinion. And I really do not see how giving my take on an issue constitutes taking center stage. Especially when no one replied to my comment except to tell me I was somehow taking center stage. And the person who did reply to me had posted several more times than I had posted, and had been replied to several times as well.

    Since Commie's criticism is completely lacking in substance, I am indeed dismissive of it. If Commie would like to elaborate, I'm willing to discuss further, but all I'm hearing so far is "You're kind of pompous and I therefore dislike you." Which, fair enough, but again - shrug.

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  64. For the record, I'm posting here that which I deleted from the post, my original response to L:

    Thank you for writing, L. First of all, congratulations on getting away from this person -- he sounds downright abusive. He also sounds terribly narcissistic; in fact, the more you described him, the more he sounds to me like a classic case of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I think de facto white supremacy is probably involved as well; I obviously don't know this man, but I can easily imagine a white NPD sufferer focusing exclusively on non-white women as a symptom of the disorder.

    I'm not a psychologist or any other sort of mental health expert, but I have had run-ins myself with people who pretty clearly suffered with NPD, so I've learned a thing or two about the disorder. So please do take all of the following with the proverbial grain of salt! Please do inform yourself about NPD, and again, take whatever I have to say here as highly speculative.

    If you think that this person has NPD, and if you were in a relationship with him that was at all extensive, I think you should inform yourself about the disorder, not only to better understand this man, but for your own sake as well. Those in relationships with NPD sufferers can end up feeling abused and damaged, often because the relationship did abuse and damage them.

    Again, I've known people diagnosed with NPD; it can be a complicated, amorphous disorder, with an array of symptoms that vary from person to person. Overall, though, the people with it that I knew sounded a lot like this bloke. As its name suggests, life for people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is all about them. Also, they tend to expect the people close to them to make their lives all about them.

    In terms of race, your diagnoses of "a white superiority complex and a white savoiur complex" make great sense to me, given how you've described him, but also because they fit into the typical NPD profile. Here in the U.S., the Mayo Clinic begins their description of the disorder this way -- does this sound familiar?

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  65. [continued]

    Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

    Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways. . .


    As I said, NPD is a complicated disorder, with a long list of symptoms, and different NPD sufferers display different symptoms. The Mayo Clinic provides a list, as do other authoritative medical sites; I encourage you to compare those symptoms to the odd, frustrating, and seemingly bizarre behavior that this man displayed. It sounds to me like many of his characteristics match symptoms of the disorder, including the bizarre turnaround at the end of your relationship. Once you're of no use to these people, you become their supposed enemy, and get treated accordingly.

    In terms of race, I can imagine such a white man dating only women who are not white. This part of the Mayo's description especially makes sense to me here:

    [U]nderneath all this behavior often lies a fragile self-esteem. You have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have a sense of secret shame and humiliation. And in order to make yourself feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and efforts to belittle the other person to make yourself appear better.

    The apparent NPD sufferers that I've known were basically actors. They acted very confident, and very dismissive of others, but inside, they felt just the opposite; underneath it all, they hated themselves. And so, the main reason that everything had to be about them, and specifically about them being told how great they supposedly were, was because that made them feel better about themselves.

    Gender is a factor too, of course. In terms of heterosexual relationships, a white man with a hidden fragile self-esteem could feel intimidated by white women, and superior to non-white women, because white supremacist Western societies suggest or signal, in thousands of ways, that white people "are" superior. NPD sufferers feels a need to dominate and manipulate those who are close to them. Manipulating supposedly inferior people, such as non-white women, probably seems easier to such white men, and manipulating supposedly superior, stronger people, such as white women, probably seems more difficult.

    Again, I think it's great that you got away from this person. I also hope you got away relatively unscathed (as I said, I also think it's quite possible that you haven't).

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  66. [continued]

    Since I don't know this person, nor you, I may be way off base, but since you asked, those are my interpretations.

    I'll add, finally, that such extreme and abusive personalities can result in behavior that's exacerbated by social hierarchies, which empower certain types of people, including those categorized as men, and those categorized as white. Whiteness itself encourages narcissistic behavior; as many posts and commenters on this blog have noted, white people are accustomed to occupying center stage, so to speak. We're used to having things be all about us, or about people who are like us because they're white. We also have ways of thrusting ourselves back onto center stage when non-white people are there instead. So, if we're white, and if we have the extreme self-centeredness of Narcissitic Personality Disorder, then it "makes sense" that we would inflict ourselves on non-white people, since a de facto white supremacist society basically encourages us already to do that.

    Best of luck to you, L. I hope that you'll let me know what you think of these speculative thoughts, and that readers here have other thoughts for you.

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  67. At least, being an analytical sort of person, that is the way I approach it.

    LOL, bluey512.

    Of course you have that self-image, which you're desperately trying to maintain at the expense of any real dialogue (as opposed to your self-congratulatory verbal masturbation) and examination of your stifling privilege. Style over substance (and no, we do not agree on the latter, it being comprised of your derailing) - the currency of white hegemony.

    You probably aren't even aware of how white and clueless (yes, and pompous, but that's just the sprinkle on your shit-eating expression) you sound.

    This complacent senselessness is among the reasons why I do not covet or aspire to whiteness. The thought of being so unwitting of my own oppressive state of mind and actions deeply disturbs and gives me pause, but it's something white people like you do and experience at least 23 hours out of the day.

    I also don't think Commie's criticisms made sense.
    People of color who criticize white privilege never do! Unless they adopt the most obsequious and conciliatory tones with their oppressors, and even then it's any (white) person's call.
    " *shrug* "

    And the person who did reply to me had posted several more times than I had posted, and had been replied to several times as well.

    Ahh. Well, sorry if I stole any of your god-given limelight, or if so many other people had the gall to detect substance where you claim there is none.

    Since Commie's criticism is completely lacking in substance, I am indeed dismissive of it.

    Of course you are. This brand of condescension and dismissal of the words & perspectives of POC comes effortlessly to whites kicking into their resentful racist mode. Did you think you were unique?

    I'm sure if you keep up that pseudo-intellectual, faux-insouciant derailing, people will pay attention to you eventually. Might want to ask yourself if that flimsy facade is really worth the racist douchebaggery though.

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  68. "Well, sorry if I stole any of your god-given limelight, or if so many other people had the gall to detect substance where you claim there is none."

    You misunderstand. Your initial comments were insightful - it's your criticism of mine that lacked substance. You said I was taking center stage, when no one had even replied to me, and you didn't provide any supporting arguments. No evidence, no reasoning, just an accusation that to me rings completely false. From an internet stranger I haven't interacted with much, I might add.

    I certainly don't see how my comment could have been taken as a typically white attempt to take center stage. Logically I certainly have to allow for the possibility that I'm doing something that I don't recognize, and if that's the case, I'd be interested in knowing exactly what it is I'm doing. I just really do not see it at all.

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  69. OMG, bluey.
    You want to see it? Here's an exercise:

    1) Go back to the start of the thread and count how many comments it takes until the point you made first appears.
    2) Count the number of words the commenter takes to say it.
    3) Reread your comment.
    4) With the data collected in steps 1-3, honestly assess whether your extended remix of an analysis was 100% necessary.
    5) Don't report your conclusion.

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  70. @bluey

    I think its pretty typical white behavior to require some level evidence. What's convenient for white people is that they get to chose what evidence to observe.

    You think the "Whitey Center Stage Act" (Thank you Commie) is relative to how many responses you get compared to others. Is that really what it's about?

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  71. I just really do not see it at all.
    @bluey: Two easy steps to remedy your myopia! (Consider it an addendum to Karinova's sage counsel.)

    Step 1: Remove your head from your ass.
    Step 2: Study up on Derailing for Dummies. Study hard.
    Keep in mind that this step is contingent upon successful completion of step 1, so NO skipping!

    Here, lemme make it easier for you. Thanks are neither needed nor expected.

    You think the "Whitey Center Stage Act" (Thank you Commie) is relative to how many responses you get compared to others. Is that really what it's about?

    @Izumi: No problemo. And HAH, good point!

    ReplyDelete
  72. Commie, if you really have that much of a problem with me chiming in late with my take on already-covered ground, then I really have nothing further to say to you. We're definitely not going to agree on this.

    Karinova, thanks for explaining.

    ReplyDelete
  73. if you really have that much of a problem with me

    And so we have BINGO, ladies and gents!

    Thanks for playing, you willfully ignorant, white-privileged snot.

    ReplyDelete
  74. "Style over substance - the currency of white hegemony."

    Yeah-yuh

    ReplyDelete

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