Monday, July 13, 2009

hate to admit that they've done something racist


Protestors outside the Valley Club
in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania


This post is a follow-up to one from last week on the swimming-club debacle in surburban Pennsylvania. CNN reported yesterday that after rejecting a group of inner-city children, the Valley Club has offered an "olive branch after racism allegations."

After reviewing these most recent reported reactions of the club's representatives, I think there's a common white tendency at work.

Most white Americans do not think of themselves as "racists." Indeed, that label, as commonly understood, is not a fair and accurate description of most white Americans. However, given the ongoing, de facto white supremacy of American society and its institutions, most white Americans do have racist tendencies. And as a result, these tendencies do sometimes result in racist actions.

When these racist actions happen, most white Americans will do almost anything to deny that what they did, and/or the effects of what they did, were "racist." After all, they seem to think and more or less say, "that would mean that I myself am a racist. And let me assure you, I am not."

Although the Valley Club has offered an "olive branch," as if to admit that it did something wrong, it seems to me that what its representatives remain reluctant to admit is that what it did was wrong precisely because it was racist.

Here's part of the CNN follow-up:

A suburban Philadelphia swim club has invited children from a largely minority day-care center to come back after a June reversal that fueled allegations of racism against the club, a spokeswoman said Sunday.

The development came during a hastily called Sunday afternoon meeting of the Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania. Club members voted overwhelmingly to try to work things out with the day-care center, which accused some swim club members of making racist comments to black and Hispanic children contracted to use the pool, said Bernice Duesler, the club director's wife.

Duesler said the club canceled its contract with the Creative Steps day-care because of safety, crowding and noise concerns, not racism.

"As long as we can work out safety issues, we'd like to have them back," she told CNN.

She said the club has been subpoenaed by the state Human Rights Commission, which has begun a fact-finding investigation, "and the legal advice was to try to get together with these camps, " Duesler added.

Alethea Wright, Creative Steps' director, said, "They should have done that before."

Wright has repeatedly lambasted the club for its tepid response to the charges and said the children in her care were "emotionally damaged" by the incident.

"These children are scarred. How can I take those children back there?" she said. . . .

Swimming privileges for about 65 children from Creative Steps were revoked after their first visit June 29. Some children said white members of the club made racist comments to the children, asking why "black children were there" and raising concerns that "they might steal from us."

Days later, the day-care center's $1,950 check was returned, Wright said.

Club director John Duesler told CNN that he had underestimated the amount of children who would participate, and the club was unable to supervise that many kids. He called his club "very diverse," and said it had offered to let day camps in the Philadelphia area use his facility after budget cuts forced some pools in the area to close.

Wright has rejected the camp's contention that the swim club's pool was overcrowded. The club had accepted a 10-to-1 ratio of children to adults and was considering adding up to three lifeguards, according to e-mails obtained by CNN.

But John Duesler said last week that the Valley Club also canceled contracts with two other day-care centers because of safety and overcrowding issues.

The Pennsylvania Human Rights Commission launched an investigation last week after allegations of racism at the Valley Club. The commission said that as part of any investigation, the two sides eventually could be asked to sit down face-to-face with its investigators.

"We always encourage opposing parties to communicate with one another if they feel they can resolve these issues amicably," Commission Chairman Stephen Glassman said.

Bernice Duesler said she wasn't yet sure how the club will "reach out" to Creative Steps and the other two camps. . . .

(The entire story is here)

What do you think of the Valley Club's response?

Do you think they'll ever admit to racist actions, on the part of the club or the members?

Have you encountered white folks who bend over backwards to explain that something they've done, which was clearly racist, was anything but?


Update: Abagond points out in a comment:

That CNN story is pretty troubling in its own right: they left out the most damning piece of racism in the whole affair: that the swim club president at first was not concerned about safety at all but the "complexion" of the club!

Not only do they leave that out, but CNN prints the club's claim that it is "very diverse" without challenge.


Abagond has since expanded these observations into "How the press is soft on racism," a solid critique of the white-framed corporate press.

101 comments:

  1. i'm surprised this hasn't come up before because this is the first thing a lot of white folks will do when you call them on racist actions.

    here are some of the common themes in their refusal to admit what they did/said was offensive:

    1. i didn't say that, you heard me wrong.

    2. you need to get a life if you're going to be so offended by every little thing.

    3. i'm not racist, YOU'RE racist.

    4. i grew up with/am married to ____ so i can't hate them.

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  2. I'd like to see any members of the "other daycares" stepping up here. I would think that, if it were the case, they would have started dancing on that floor the minute the racist allegations came up, not after nearly a week of negative attention and a closed-doors meeting.

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  3. The anything-but-racism thing is very common with whites. Not just in defending their own actions, but even those of other whites. There always seems to be Some Other Explanation, however improbable.

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  4. One way in which we propagate racist culture is by making it unsafe for anybody to own up to the racism in their own acts -- because the rest of us scapegoat them, to deflect attention from the more-subtle racism that permeates the culture. So the club, having made the initial screw-up, doesn't have any good way of backing down at this point.

    I'd like to think that if they said "We apologize, what we did was racist and unacceptable" that they could start doing something constructive. I fear that instead a statement like that would just make it easier for the rest of us to use them as an example to make ourselves feel better: "see, they're racist, I'm not like that, therefore I'm okay." When the big difference between me and them is that I don't have a club to kick anybody out of.

    As a culture and as individuals we act as if pointing out egregious racism in someone else somehow gets us off the hook for addressing our own complicity. It's way more comfortable for me to point my outrage at somebody else than it is for me to examine my own thoughts and behavior.

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  5. That CNN story is pretty troubling in its own right: they left out the most damning piece of racism in the whole affair: that the swim club president at first was not concerned about safety at all but the "complexion" of the club!

    Not only do they leave that out, but CNN prints the club's claim that it is "very diverse" without challenge.

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  6. Oh, it was definitely racist.

    I remember at the gym one day I was working out next to a what man who was talking to his black trainer, telling him he was not at all prejudiced against any person or color except for Jews because he felt a jew had cheated him once. (I wonder how much was actual truth and how much was his expectation). Not that there aren't some cheating Jews out there but there are cheats of all colors and persuasions. Being married to a Jew, I was furious (one because he had the nerve to make a statement like that next to a total stranger whom he knew nothing about and two because what he was saying was total bullshit...the guy was a racist) and I stopped my workout and let him have it.

    btw, I started following your blog this weekend but didn't have time to comment on the Jesus thread...I'll get back to it.

    Come visit me. I'm all over the place in my posts.

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  7. I know the best way for this place to apologize. Shut the club down, detain all the white people who said something racist, brand and RFID them and let them back into public under scrutiny and surveillance. Because that's what the ideology behind these media-crafted reports are pushing for.

    That'll make those who are sick of racism in this day and age happy. It'll also help caucasian anti-racists sleep at night!

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  8. I am somewhat troubled here in my response. Of course this is racist. Of course the jerks at the country club were racist. I do find, in reading the responses, that the direction however of many of the responses are also racist. Making broad statement about "white" or "blacks" is by definition, racist. Additionally, it is good to look at it from another perspective as well. As a white guy, I can attest that it does get annoying at times that stories don't get the attention because they happen to another race, other than white. The same week this happened, a white family in Ill I think was attacked by a group of black kids chanting, "this is a black world!". When you see kids being turned away at a pool, which is despicable and ridiculous, on the front page, and such stories as the aforementioned with actual violence and up front racism being spouted...it does get a little annoying. Can you see my point?

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  9. That's a great list, giles, thank you. I hope others will add to it.

    Cheryl, I agree with much of your comment -- as the title of the post says, we white folks do hate to admit that we've done something racist. Still, I don't want to blame the blaming, finger-pointing culture around the Valley Club representatives more than the Valley Club representatives themselves.

    I agree abagond, those are definitely egregious omissions on the part of CNN.

    Welcome aboard, ellen, I look forward to coming over to read your blog.

    woost, I take it you're being sarcastic. So, are you actually saying that you don't think the apparent racism of the Valley Club is noteworthy? And that seeing and understanding yet another common white tendency in their reluctance to admit to that racism is worth doing?

    EricW I do get your point, but I think you're not understanding something. Despite the Civil Rights Movement and subsequent efforts, racism against PoC is still rampant in the U.S., at individual and broader levels. Many PoC encounter and/or suffer incidents of racism nearly every day. White people, on the other hand, suffer incidents against them as white people once in a lifetime, if that. Particularly bad and blatant examples of the former, like the swimming club incident, are justifiably considered newsworthy because racism against PoC is still a major societal problem. Incidents in which white people are treated badly on the basis of their whiteness are not particularly newsworthy because that's not a major social problem.

    Does that make sense to you?

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  10. The other troubling thing? They didn't attempt to make amends until they were provided with legal advice that it was in their best interest to do so! And the only reason they contacted counsel was because of the public outcry and media coverage. What if the camp directors had just shrugged and said, "That's the breaks, kids."? No apology, meeting, or olive branch would have been forthcoming.

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  11. What is incredibly lacking is someone to explain to these white people, in a way they understand, that the actions were racist.
    There are plenty of white people who really do not understand race, they do stupid things, get in trouble, and they do not learn the real reason why. What happens is they blame the "pc" police and become more entrenched in their ignorance.
    Just like any child, punishment without teaching will only breed resentment.

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  12. I'm just curious if anyone is going to mention that two other daycares were turned away? Or does that make it more difficult to cry racism?

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  13. Slingsby, someone did mention that -- you.

    Please do tell us more about the turning away of two other daycares, so we can decide whether we should still "cry racism."

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  14. No, the question of the other two turned away raises more questions like what was the racial makeup of those otheres, when were they turned away, and were they kicked out when they showed up while hearing racist remarks from club members.

    Are you trying to tell me that a bunch of black kids show up to the club, a member takes her kids out while loudly asking "why are all these black kids here?", the camp gets the boot, and you still want to find a way for it NOT to be racism?

    Sounds to me like in this situation explaning away racism is harder than "crying" it.

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  15. Please someone give me a logical explanation based on fact rather than emotion about how this is anymore racist than the NAACP, the United Negro College Fund, Affirmative Action or BET (this list could go on for a long time BTW)?? Let us not forget that this is a private club with paid memberships. Why is it only considered to be a racist thing when white people do it? How can any of these programs designed to single out a specific minority not be looked at the same way?

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  16. Here is the Long and Short of it:

    The Valley Swim Club says it is a private club with open membership, which means it cannot discriminate on the basis of race under Pennsylvania case law.
    The club took nearly $2000 from the camp to allow its members to swim there once a week and then, the day after the campers came and were told they were unwelcome, the club president said their presence would 'change the complexion' of the club and that their money would be refunded."

    I keep thinking of my own child in this instance, and what this would have done to his outlook on life in a country where he is constantly being told that his race is no longer an issue. I continue to reinforce that others will always think they are better than him, and that it is up to him to prove the doubters and nay-sayers wrong when confronted. It is sad to say that there are people perpetuating (sp) the ideal that we are in harmony and teaching their children otherwise.

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  17. Slingsby, I've heard about the two "turned away" daycare groups. The CLUB claims that they were daycare groups with all white children.

    That proves nothing to me because:

    1)The Club can say anything they want, especially if they're trying to deflect criticism.

    2)The Club has offered up no proof that these other two daycare groups had all white children in them.

    3)These other daycares have not stepped forward to say that they were booted.

    I don't tolerate racism PERIOD!! It doesn't matter who is dishing out the racism.

    I quit a job because of racist comments that two co-workers made to me about a black co-worker and Asian customers. When I quit my job, I told my boss exactly what was said and why I was quitting. Unfortunately nothing was done to reprimand the two people, and they're still employed at this place. Because of that, I refuse to shop there. I will not give a dime to a company that tolerates racism.

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  18. I have to agree with Eric (yes I'm also white) that I am troubled reading the responses that are also racist and would not be acceptable if they came from me. Making broad statement about "white" or "blacks" is by definition, racist. Of course this is racism. I've been a victim of it myself by black people (who also denied the fact it happened since black people cannot be racist). My nephew was murdered by a 16-year black kid who wanted his car and money because he was white. The truth is, the color doesn’t matter – it’s the action of the individual(s) that should. Instead of making broad statements based on a person’s skin color, we should tackle the issues together and start trying to live in peace. Remember the old saying, United we stand, divided we fall.

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  19. Well now they have refused the apology and are seeking monetary gain through lawsuits. Its true that two other camps were turned away, only difference between the three groups is that when it was an all minority group the media and everyone else crucifies the club and demands that heads roll. Now we see that the camp coordinator isn't truly acting in the best interest of the kids and is keeping the spotlight on this so they can reap the rewards of lawsuits.

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  20. Anonymous, making broad statements about whites or blacks is NOT racist if those statements are true. It is not racist to say, for instance, that black people generally receive worse health care than whites do, nor is it racist to say, as I often do, that being raised as a so-called white person tends to instill common white tendencies. That doesn't mean, by the way, that all white people have them, nor that if they do, they act on them.

    Andrew, please point me to the club's "apology" (because I haven't seen one). I'd like to see what they apologized for, and how they phrased it.

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  21. Sorry Macom, but I disagree with you about broad statements. Board statements usually contain stero-typing that fuel distrust and anger toward each other. Usually they usually fit someone's agenda but don’t tell truth. And even if the statement fits 51% of the group targeted it’s still includes the other 49% who don’t fit that criteria – and usually the percent of people who it fits is far, far lower. Groups like the KKK use board statements toward black people that don’t reflect the REAL truth but rather than agenda.

    My problem with the example you gave is the follow. Even if black people generally receive worse health care than whites, there are still A LOT Of poor white people in the same boat. Should we only design programs for blacks or target anyone who fits the criteria? Why should anyone in need be left out based on the color of their skin for that matter? Yet this is happening today. There are many government programs design only to help black people -- whites need not apply. Can you name just one program that only applies for white people? Shouldn’t college funds, job grants, and other help be award based on merit/need and not race? It’s my belief that the color of a person’s skin is far less important than the character of person who wears it. It's one my wife and I are instilling in our kids.

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  22. Anon,
    While many , many, whites are in fact dissadvantaged, the difference would be the root of how they got there.
    You ask for one program exclusively meant for white people, I in stead ask (ignoring white privelage in general)you to cite one law that specifically hurt or inhibited white groups on the basis of skin.
    Our govt. DOES have a rsponsability for a situation it intentionally created.

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  23. I agree there are a lot, and I do mean A LOT of white racists who do not think they are racist.

    However, there is just as many black people that talk trash about white people, and the only thing that makes that acceptable is the fact that blacks are the minority. How is that??? Isn't hatin' wrong regardless of color?

    And let's not forget about *the race card*. There is an employee who won't show up to work, but won't get fired either because the white supervisors are afraid she will pull it.

    Before you get upset, just consider one thing: Americans are hung up on race. Other countries are hung up on class. Hate runs both ways and it's wrong regardless of what color your skin is. Are we not ALL Gods children?

    Mrs. Hunt

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  24. Come on bro,

    Are you really suggesting that all black people who are poor and disadvantaged are a result of laws dating back to the 1960’s? Some sure, but not the majority of blacks in the US today. As I said, there are hundreds of programs directed at giving blacks a helping hand. But you can’t name for ONLY whites who in the same situation because it doesn’t exist. If someone tried opening such a program blacks would have a field day yelling racism. A few years back a young, white lady was denied entry into a college beauty pageant because it was only for black women. Yet a similar event for whites only would be considered racism. Guess what, it would be but black people have programs in place when it comes to hiring, college grants, work grants, etc. I’ve seen and been affected by Affirmative Action in a negative way simply because of my skin color

    As for a law that specifically hurt or inhibited whites, I don’t know of any. Yes, there were laws that did hurt and inhibited black people. The last dated back to the early 60’s and all have been overturned. Wasn’t that the point, to make people equal? After 40+ years it’s time people take responsibilities for their own actions instead of blaming someone else because of the color of their skin, no matter who’s doing the blaming.

    BTW – what the heck is this “white privilege” you mention? Being white didn’t make my life easier. If you had walked a mile in my shoes, you would know what I mean.

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  25. Joe, is that serious question or are you being snarky?

    BET and other channels exist because of the "mainstream" channels' lack of representing/under-representation of other groups. Are you blind? If anything these channels came to be because of racism.

    Affirmative Action's biggest benefactors are white women. Do you still wish to claim racism?

    The UNCF stands to help black students fund their education as the UNHF, Native American Tribal funds, and other groups desire to do.

    The NAACP...do you see a pattern.

    Thanks for proving that this tendency exist, Joe. Complaining about other groups trying to provide means when their own country won't is a subset of this tendency.

    Your martyrdom is hilarious.

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  26. Andrew, considering the emotional distress caused by this incident, the lawsuit would be warranted.

    Suing over emotional distress is nothing new. Are you new to the US? Or, are you living in a box?

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  27. If the club's reasons for excluding this daycare were legit, shouldn't "safety concerns" have been their first response, not the one they present days after they've mentioned "complexion" and "atmosphere"? If I were one of those kids, I wouldn't want to go back there, either.

    There's a reason we consider race when looking at problems of economics and accessibility. Disparities in healthcare don't mean we need special Minority Medicaid. Nobody's saying that here. It means we need to figure out the underlying reasons for the disparities and address them. Affirmative action for whites in this country existed for centuries. We just didn't call it that. Now, how do we undo the damage that caused? It's a serious question, and one that can't always be addressed with colorblindness. Especially when we have problems like this, a club and its patrons shunning black children because of their color, which teaches those kids not to expect acceptance anywhere whites are the majority.

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  28. Joe said...
    Please someone give me a logical explanation based on fact rather than emotion about how this is anymore racist than the NAACP, the United Negro College Fund, Affirmative Action or BET (this list could go on for a long time BTW)?? Let us not forget that this is a private club with paid memberships. Why is it only considered to be a racist thing when white people do it? How can any of these programs designed to single out a specific minority not be looked at the same way?

    Normally I don't rely on wiki but here's an explanation regarding NAACP:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_the_Advancement_of_Colored_People

    As far as BET, couldn't the same also be said for Univision? Looking from a marketing standpoint, I would think that BET is aimed at a certain demographic.I've also seen on cable where they have Korean stations as well.

    As far as the United Negro College Fund, I don't think that makes a valid argument to say it's racist, because there also many scholarships used in regards to someone's heritage, such as:

    1.The American Indian College Fund (where you must provide proof that you are a member of a tribe)
    2. I also have friends that are Italian-American that have applied to college scholarships designated for people of Italian origin
    3. Also, when looking for scholarships to go to college, using financial databases I have seen scholarships and grants designated by different cultural societies in the US that are Polish, Armenian, Ukranian,etc
    Sorry, I can't give you the names of such societies but if you look up grants based on ethnicity, you will find such organizations. So, with that said, I really don't see how the UNCF is any different than the American Indian College Fund.

    Hope this clarifies your answer

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  29. Thank you honeybrown1976 and Ebony for your reply. Maybe it's just me but your explanations are at the very fabric of racism. Take for example UNCF in my mind any program that distinguishes between a race for the betterment of that race(be it black, asian, native...etc) is by definition racism. If I were to start a channel called WET there would be riots. I can not begin to tell you how many hundreds of thousands of dollars I have lost because of affirmative action and why all because I am a white male, how is this fair? My point being these are all double standards.
    Now was this group sent home from the pool because they had darker skin....probably but what would happen to me if I went to the Negro College Fund and asked for them to pay for my college...they would send me home. Would I alert the media, be interviewed by the news crying and threaten to sue...god no! But really where is the difference??

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  30. "White people, on the other hand, suffer incidents against them as white people once in a lifetime, if that."

    You wouldn't say this if you spoke to a non-black server in the southern half of the country. Black on white racism and abuse is a constant daily affliction to people only trying to do a job/s and support themselves and family.

    But this doesn't condone racism of any kind on anybody. It's just disheartening.

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  31. Anon... and others,
    No not all poor people who are black, are poor because of discrimination, just like all successfull black people are not successful because of affirmative action.

    Lets look logically... if black and white really are created equal, but in America black people are grossly over represented (proportionately) in the ranks of poverty, why is that? Would you say it is more likely that they are simply inferior or maybe that centuries of legislation, seperation, and discrimination have set the group back in order to advantage the group that is already more successful?

    You have accepted that there were laws hurting blacks in the past and they are gone now...then what? Erase the laws and ignore the situation those laws created? Is 40 years enough to erase the damage that was done? I say 40 but remember just because the laws were gone does not mean equaliy took their place... federal troops were required to enforce the civil rights act YEARS after it was passed.

    You have lost thousands of dollars to affirmative action? really? Did they actually take your money or did someone else just get an opportunity in stead of you?

    "white privelage" is a term I dislike but use because it is the most commonly acepted term for a prnciple I know to be true... meaning; being white does not make your life easy. Plenty of white people have very, VERY, hard lives and circumstances. But I promise you that no matter your trouble, at least in the USA, your troubles would be harder if on top of it all you were black. example: being poor and having cancer is bad. Being poor, having cancer, and adding the complication of race makes things even harder yet. That is what white privelage is.

    There are no programs advantaging whites? You just don't know the language. Try this, go to the website for Harvard's graduate school of education. This is by far the least exclusive and prestiguous of Harvard's programs, so I won't even deal with "legacy".
    Look up the listed Scholarships and you will be astounded by the number of trusts and scholarships set up akin to: tuition for anyone named MCulluh who is from Ohio. Assistance for any proven descendant of Mary Hoisington of John's Hill New Jersey.
    You win a gold star for finding any of these that arent white.

    That is how institutional racism works. You don't have to call it "whites only", you call it McCulluh from Ohio. You don't call it Whites only club, you call it Upper MArion Private Club.

    I am never one to say white people don't have it hard, I have my own fair shair of troubles, but to say whites are now in fact dissadvantaged comparatively just shows a lack of knowledge regarding the black experience.

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  32. What we have here is a classic case of segregation by choice. You see it in country clubs and other "private" social clubs around the country. By the members, it's not seen as racism; it's just a place to go and be around like-minded people.

    We as African-Americans do it all of the time as well. This said, it doesn't make it right. It just kind of makes it how it is. Dig?

    I hate that these kids had to experience this. If you boil it down, it's prejudice and discrimination. These folks aren't like you so you aren't comfortable with them being in your special, intimate place.

    We will not be a diverse culture (in writing nor in action) until we all learn each other. We must all know that there are synonymous things associated with white, black, brown, yellow, and red. These things could go from our blood to the depth of our aspirations.

    This country is young. Slavery and Jim Crow are relatively new. I think as we continue to grow as a country, our wisdom will catch up.

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  33. brohammas said...

    There are no programs advantaging whites? You just don't know the language.

    I think you nailed it. What some fail to see is that sure laws are passed against discrimination, etc. But it doesn't mean that it's necessarily ENFORCED. These laws just prohibit one from being 'outwardly' racist.

    Also what many people like to throw in is "freedom of speech" I always felt that this is real tricky, because sure everyone is entitled to express themselves--but does this include to the point where it may inflict harm towards others?


    I'm finding that there's also hidden discrimination in the hiring process. For example whenever I see "Equal Opportunity Employer" that makes me very nervous because it makes me think that some discrimination must have happened. Why say it? It should be common sense.

    Someone mentioned affirmative action, but now the practice seems to be discriminate against someone that has an "ethnic" sounding name when looking at applications. Think I'm making it up? A roommate told me once that her former boss told her to toss any resume that has an 'Indian' sounding name and another friend who is white, with the name Amanda, had a prospective employer comment to her, "Oh, I thought you were Hispanic." Apparently in her part of town there's a huge Hispanic population and this woman knew a bunch of Hispanic females named Amanda. She found the employer's comment rather troubling.

    Also, what's interesting is when I tell some white people that I used to live in New York City, I notice that I'm usually asked again (which is understandable because when people say New York, they could mean Brooklyn, etc) and I say Manhattan and I can almost feel them wanting to ask--"how is it possible for a young black woman to be able to afford to live there?"

    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's the kind of "unspoken" language I pick up on.

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  34. Joe, I see you've received the racist email that's years old now and wish to discuss it here; hereby, wasting all of our time.

    The major networks are your WETs. Enjoy them as they are not changing anytime soon. Also, I implore you to enjoy your film experience too at your local theater.

    I mean, it really must be so hard for you to go under-represented with all the people of color on every television show, movie, or any form of entertainment (with the exception of sports). How do you achieve some form of identity with all of the exclusion?

    By the way, would you feel left out with the Daughters of the American Revolution as well? Or, are you using selective amnesia to discuss some more insanity?

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  35. DK, please don't speak for all African-Americans. Use "some" next time.

    Thank you! : )

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  36. Adding to the list started by giles (first commenter):

    When it's what someone else said/did -

    5. How do you know it was about race? Maybe it was a gender thing. Maybe it was a class thing. Maybe the guy had a bad day. Maybe she had PMS.

    6. Maybe they just didn't like you. Maybe it's you - the way you acted/talked/dressed.

    7. My POC partner/friend/relative said everyone is nice here, they say there's no racism.

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  37. DK appears to be a person who wishes to discuss problems using thoughtful analysis. His analysis seems to be as color blind as possible. He is african-ameican, i am not. But I think we share a penchant for fairness, logic, and hopeful, yet dispassionate reasoning. I fear we are the true minority.

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  38. I'm amazed at some commenters' reckless ignorance of history, sociology, and politics. (And by the way, for the easily offended, I'm not specifically calling you ignorant.) Those in this group who think U.S. blacks, the descendants of slaves, get so much "for free" in this society have yet to list specifically what those things are, and how they've kept you from attaining your life goals. Cause that's what this is about really, isn't it? Being black all my life, I'm confident that the achievements you've seen some of us claim have happened in spite of the often infuriating game-changing circumstances we've faced.

    Before y'all go on, let me suggest three books: "Being Black, Living in the Red," by Dalton Conley; "When Affirmative Action Was White," by Ira Katznelson; "Slavery by Another Name," by Wall Street Journal editor Douglas Blackmon.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964 ended employment discrimination and legalized segregation, but the construction of the middle class, shepherded by our government, had written in damaging inequities years before. Thus, policies designed to serve all Americans -- the FHA comes to mind -- knee-capped blacks, who also often faced another layer of policy exclusions at the state and local level. Earlier, at the time of the New Deal, domestics and other workers (like sharecroppers) from my parents' generation, who were majority black, were excluded from Social Security -- unemployment, old-age benefits, and the minimum wage -- initially because of mostly Southern senators' objections.

    Then there was the kidnapping of black men, workers much like the Hispanic day laborers seen today, who were often jailed indefinitely on questionable or minor charges and forced to work to death in mines or chain gangs, their services sold to industries. These were people's family members, and the events took place well past the New Deal's introduction. Conley, a white man from Arkansas, does a great job detailing this in his book.

    I could provide other examples, but the point is for the last 50 years, post Civil Rights movement, many blacks indeed have tried earnestly to build resources, educate their children, and live where they wanted in spite of these roadblocks. Many were left behind, though. For the poster who doesn't "get" the UNCF, Urban League, NAACP Legal Defense Fund, et al, these historic institutions created by blacks *and* whites to serve unmet needs, often borne from de jure (by law) and de facto (by fact) discriminatory practices. You'd think in our time of "personal responsibility," that this "bootstrapping" approach would be lauded.

    U.S. blacks have come far, but the reality is the generational wealth (even simply having land to pass down or borrow against to pay for college), widespread political power, and status that many whites were allowed to build off our sweat equity, subjugation, humiliation, incarceration, and blatant denial of opportunities. More, given my ancestors' contributions to this country, often nominally paid or unpaid, people should stop looking at our progress as a zero-sum game. The cynical political dog-whistling at working-class whites for the last 25 years hasn't done a damn thing to improve their lot, either. It sure as hell ain't making the jobs come back from overseas. Perhaps the goal should be examining the source of problems still afflicting both groups to devise mutually beneficial solutions enabling both to prosper. The animus must be put aside.

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  39. Just correcting a mistake. Doug Blackmon is the "white man from Arkansas," I mentioned in my fourth paragraph, not Conley. Thanks.

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  40. Thank you for spelling all of that out, sojourner, even for those of us who are white and have heard much of it before. I for one need to hear such things repeatedly, because the world around me seems bent on driving any such understandings out of my head.

    btw, last year I posted a great (and brief) interview by Bill Moyers with Douglas Blackmon about that paradigm-shifting book.

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  41. "Have you encountered white folks who bend over backwards to explain that something they've done, which was clearly racist, was anything but?"

    Yes! You'd think if your white friend AND your friend of colour talk to you about being racist, you'd start to think maybe you sometimes are. However, she thinks it'd be okay for someone to judge her based on her hair being blond even if it's a negative judgement so I really don't know what else can be said to her. Apparently she doesn't hold negative stereotypes and doesn't hurt anyone.

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  42. (First time commenting.)

    "Have you encountered white folks who bend over backwards to explain that something they've done, which was clearly racist, was anything but?"

    Yes, me.

    One byproduct of the serious lack of productive and authentic discussion about race in our society is that there are few mainstream models of how to own up to doing something racist, how to extend apologies, and how to move on. I speak from my own experiences as a progressive white person trying to check my white privilege and engage in the anti-racism movement, that we need to learn to get past our shame at acting in a racist way, apologize, and learn.

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  43. Hey Bro,

    Thanks for the reply – I am enjoying and learning some things. A couple of comments about things you wrote:

    * “Is 40 years enough to erase the damage that was done?”

    In 40 years we’ve elected a black president. In 40 years we ripped down the walls of segregations and unfairness. In 40 years we’ve done a great deal toward Kings dream that all men/women should be treated the same. Seriously, I grew up in that time and have seen these changes. I’m not saying there isn’t work to be done – but we need to shift from creating two societies and making it one.

    An example of what I’m saying is something that happened at a college in my town. The hiring panel in a department my wife works at was getting ready to interview two candidates for a job opening. But before they could do so, the college black panel protested because both candidates were white and they insisted one of the candidates had to be black (not a minority mind you – but black). Anything other than that would be considered discrimination and they were ready to file a lawsuit against the college. Now these same people didn’t have a problem when the last four job hires came down to 2 black people or one black person and someone of another minority.

    So the university brought in a black person they had already interviewed and ruled out for not being qualified back in, gave him a final interview, and picked the best candidate based on experience who in this case was a white male. The black panel screamed the panel was racist and filed a lawsuit. Now before you jump to conclusions, the last time the department hired a white male was over 7 years ago. That’s one out of 20 job hires (5%). The largest minority hired were blacks (35%). The rest were filled by other minorities. In fact this college has a very good record of hiring minorities. Now please tell me how the black panel is not operating in a racist fashion by trying to deny someone a job based on their skin color? Isn’t that just as wrong as denying a black person a job based on their skin color?

    Let’s look at this private country club. Bro, do you really think everyone at this club has a problem with black people? Obviously some did, but why is every person associated with the club considered a racist? No one has come out and said that, but that’s being perceived. A few people made some negative comments toward black children and all of the sudden everyone associated with that club is a racist. REALLY? Come on, we both know that’s not true at all.

    * “Plenty of white people have very, VERY, hard lives and circumstances. But I promise you that no matter your trouble, at least in the USA, your troubles would be harder if on top of it all you were black. example: being poor and having cancer is bad. Being poor, having cancer, and adding the complication of race makes things even harder yet. That is what white privelage is.”

    Sorry Bro, but there is absolutely no evidence to support this claim. We can argue this back and forth – you can site examples for and I against – but in the end it’s a matter of personal opinion and my opinion should matter as much as yours in an open society. So let’s agree to disagree on this.

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  44. Bro, you also wrote:

    “Look up the listed Scholarships and you will be astounded by the number of trusts and scholarships set up akin to: tuition for anyone named MCulluh who is from Ohio. Assistance for any proven descendant of Mary Hoisington of John's Hill New Jersey. You win a gold star for finding any of these that arent white.”

    In both cases I would also not be able to receive money from these scholarships so explain to me how this benefits white people outside this family? What you are referring too are private scholarships set up by that family. Show me one scholarship that say’s the money only applies to people who are white. You can’t, but you and I both know there are plenty of scholarships that only apply to black people or other minorities.

    Look, I could set up a scholarship for future generations of my family if I wish. Any black person could do the same for his kids – I don’t have a problem with this because it’s a person’s right to do so. But that is a far cry for government funded grants/scholarships (using my tax dollars) that only apply to black people because they need more help than a white person in the same economic situation. It just doesn’t wash. What you are doing is setting up a separate society and no matter how you try to explain it away it’s still wrong. It was wrong in the 60’s and it’s wrong in today.

    “I am never one to say white people don't have it hard, I have my own fair shair of troubles, but to say whites are now in fact dissadvantaged comparatively just shows a lack of knowledge regarding the black experience.”

    I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying is to exclude one group of people from special programs/grants/job funds based on the color of their skin is taking a step back from Kings dream, not moving forward. And if the situation was reversed and it was only white people having access to these programs why would that be wrong? Because the argument would be that programs shouldn’t apply to someone based on their skin color. If that’s true, why shouldn’t everyone have access to these programs then? Cheers

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  45. The obligation to treat all people the same is an in interpersonal one, not necessarily a macrosociatal one. Society DOES have an obligation to be fair and just. Has the United States Government bean fair to black people? You may cite as others have done how the govt. and white people signed the civil rights act and were active in campaigns for equal rights. That is good but is that enough to equal fair? Isn’t that akin to punching someone in the face then asking for applause on the grounds that you simply stopped punching them?
    Reality is we do have separate societies but the answer for bringing the two together is not pulling the rug out from under black culture.

    The black panel you mentioned may be taking race into consideration, which you define as racism, but what makes their actions different is context and history. You may not feel you have a comparative advantage but you do. Whites, as the majority, have an advantage and the govt. has a track record of legislating to make that advantage official. THAT my friend is why you can’t have WET or whites only scholarships. Historically ALL scholarships and TV were whites only. The actions of black interest groups are trying to make up for the damage those days did where as white groups are simply trying to hinder the progress of another group. Is that difference not obvious?

    Now the club,
    This is a club. A private club, which means these peope are paying money to be associated with each other, so guilty by association is not only fair but expected. The club is being associated with racism not just because of racist comments by some members, but those comments coupled with the expulsion of the kids on the grounds of “complexion and atmosphere” only to have that reason later changed to “safety”. Are all members of that club racist? I would think not but once again they are paying to be associated with each other, so understanding the “birds of a feather” idea I would think that a person concerned with being labeled racist would disassociate themselves. Sonny Perdue is THE reason I would not be a Republican in GA.

    Again my friend, are we to ignore institutional racism for hundreds of years and now, less than a full generation declare all things equal? I ask again, what should we do? What is your plan to undo the inequality our govt. created? If affirmative action is not the answer, then give me a better one. I see educational affirmative action as the best way to teach a man to fish. Other programs serving the black population are reacting to our historical tendency to deny black people who happen to learn how to fish access to a fishing pole or hooks.
    Anon, no one is taking away your fishing pole. Why are you so upset someone else is getting some help? Your concern seems to be the cementing of separate societies, a concern I share with you, but this “one” society is of no value if it is a white person’s society in which black people are only brought in as a disadvantaged underclass. “Man” are created equal but our society has in fact not yet provided a level field on which to not just compete, but just cohabitate.

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  46. Hey Bro,

    Thanks for your comments, they are food for thought. The truth is, I’m not afraid of someone taking my fishing pole nor am I upset. What I’m afraid of is that we have created a different set of segregation, where black people do get advantages based on skin color. IMO – this is building a wall, not tearing it down.

    I can give you two personal accounts where race was a factor. One was a job where the black person we hired didn’t come in on time, left when he wanted (still clocked in), didn’t perform at the job level, and wasn’t fired. If I had pulled any of these stunts I’ve would’ve been booted out on my butt long ago and rightfully so. But management was afraid he would play the race card so they kept him on. The company had to write a book on his performance before they could even attempt to get rid of him. By that time he had already moved on.

    So let me ask you a question? Do you really think the next black person who walks in their door has a snowball chance at hell of getting a job? Not likely, but then does that make this company racist. I believe it does, but I also understand their reasoning when you can’t get rid of someone who should be fired because they can file a lawsuit. Why would they want to go through that aggravation and expense again? If you read above, Mrs. Hunt has a similar problem at her company.

    The second was with two co-workers who spent more time talking instead of working. This impacted my job, because I had to finish whatever they didn’t and it was a lot. When I complained, these ladies claimed I had called them the N-word. Bro, if you only knew how offensive I find this word you would understand that it made me feel. I don’t think ANYONE, black or white, should use this word. I got in trouble for a racist comment I wouldn’t have used under ANY circumstances and they continue to talk causing me more work.

    I’m for equal rights Bro, but my experience is not unique. Other white people have had similar experiences. When you don’t allow people to be treated equal; when someone is given special privileges because of the color of their skin; that builds a wall of frustration and unfairness that can’t be brought down easily.

    As for college, when two qualified people are in the same financle situation but only one can get a grant because of their skin color, it’s wrong and only serves to divide our country. Why should anyone suffer because of the color of their skin? Imagine being poor and not being able to get a grant/scholarship simply because you’re white. How does that help build racial harmany? How does it help our society as a whole?

    You’re right Bro. We do have the same concern and goals. But I see more and more whites getting frustrated with the unequal treatment we have created and less tolerable toward blacks demands. At one time these programs were needed, but now we need to stop feeding the system and work toward created a united society. These programs designed to only help someone based on their skin color have to go just as segregation had to go in the 60’s if we are to achieve this Kings dream. Just my 2 cents. Have a good day.

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  47. macon, thank you for your response. I appreciate you pointing out the way my rhetoric about "culture" lets people (and in this case, organziations) off the hook (as if somehow in my head the culture isn't made up of people!)

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  48. "What I’m afraid of is that we have created a different set of segregation, where black people do get advantages based on skin color."

    While I clearly understand your political motivation for hammering home the point of perceived white victim hood. It is a little difficult to take seriously in light of objective reality. Furthermore, you've gone to great lengths to share with everyone your anecdotal stories about the company that hired the slothful black employee but would not fire him or her because they were afraid they would get sued or worse, he would call them racists.

    I've seen several variations of these stories where the funniest versions are those where the seemingly intelligent white managers, business owners etc allowed their otherwise successful business to go down the tubes because they were "forced" to keep employed some POC to avoid a discrimination claim.

    Now, these stories are always a good read for their comedic value but like all versions of these cautionary tall tales that would make a racist proud, they are lacking several fundamental details for examples:

    (1) If the author of one of these fictions decides to include any relationship information like how they know for instance the qualification or lack thereof of the person in question, it is generally that they heard the story from their brother-uncle-sister-mothers-wife who happens to know someone who worked at the place.

    (2) It is never clear how the person telling the tale knows such intimate details about the hiring and firing practices of a particular employer or its management staff without being involved in some way shape or from in management him or herself.
    Furthermore, if a person is in a management position of any organization of any size, he or she would know from experience that no group has a corner on laziness, incompetence or the ability to bring legal action against an organization if the employee feels that he/she was terminated unjustly.

    (3) They can never name the employer, time period or any other remotely verifiable information such as the section of the law or the company policy that says the company must hire unqualified POC and keep them in their positions no matter what.

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  49. Dear Anonymous:

    Now, let me tell what I know about people who tell these tales. I personally know some of these people (scary.)

    (1) White males between (20-45)

    (2) They are usually indoctrinated to believe that they are chosen ones, the gods of the universe POC and women are inferior to them.

    (3) A considerable amount of their discomfort centers on the fact that they are not as successful, smart, or important as they believed they would be and are generally insecure and have serious personal doubt about themselves. Furthermore, because of this racist/sexist narrative that exist only between their ears, they have a hard time reconciling or adjusting to the reality of people they consider inferior being as or more successful, smarter, better off, etc than they are.

    (4) The net result of employing people like this is that they are workplace antagonists. They create and keep up conflict in the workplace. In addition, they are alchemists, it is really amazing how these people can contort objective reality in a way that fit the racist fantasy that exist between their ears. I am not saying that the stories these people tell are not true, its just that the details are masterfully manipulated to paint a picture that isn't real.

    Case-n-point:

    I assume that most here are familiar with the concept of white male bonding. Every so often, someone who feels that I am a good audience for their racist ramblings will present me with with an insight.

    "I work with a black guy must be an affirmative action baby, he comes and goes when he wants. He sits at his desk all day reading the paper and gets paid a lot of money for doing nothing...I come to work and I work hard every day and if I did any of those things I would get fired...black people have all the power."

    Contrast that rant with the reality:

    (a) The affirmative action charge is an assumption on the part of the person making it. The "black guy" in question has been with the organization for more than 20 years and worked his way through the various ranks to become a senior level manager and is a salaried employee. Like the other salaried employees and senior level managers who are mostly white, they work on the weekends and in the evenings and are compensated with flex time. (means that they can take time off for personal matters during business hours.) The person making the complaint is an hourly employee and the rules are therefore different. No conspiracy.

    (b) The charge of him sitting at his desk reading the paper all day is a gross exaggeration. A lot people sit at their desks and read the paper during their breaks, others take walks, some make personal phone calls. Again no conspiracy.

    (c) "..he gets paid a lot of money for doing nothing." This charge is another baseless assumption. The employee in question gets paid a salary that is commensurate with his experience and responsibility. Furthermore, it is practically impossible for a subordinate to evaluate the work performance of a manager when their jobs are significantly different.

    (d) "..I come to work and I work hard every day.." So did the "black guy" for many years and now he's a senior level manager.

    (e) "...black people have all the power..." Baseless racist assertion.

    The people that I know suffer greatly because their mental landscape is so at odds with objective reality so much so, that their self esteem and confidence to be better people is significantly compromised by racist beliefs that they hold which colors their perception of the world and events.

    Unfortunately, these same people, are vulnerable to racist propaganda because it preys on people with low self-confidence by encouraging such individuals to celebrate their ignorance of history and reality so that they can feel a part of something bigger and more important than themselves which makes them rebels without a cause or a clue.

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  50. You're welcome, Cheryl!

    That's awesome debunking work, Morpheus, thank you. I think there's a job waiting for you at snopes.com.

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  51. Wow, Macon. Anonymous totally took from the "Us Vs. Them - Irrational White Male Fear Playbook."

    His anecdotes are total b.s. "I'm all for equality as long as it's tipped more in our favor."

    Yeah, the entries never deviate. They've become so predictable that you can call them from a mile away.

    Try harder, Anonymous.

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  52. When you close your mind then you stop learning. My stories were not "made up". Think of me what you will, but I know where my heart and mind is and will continue to keep them open to learn. I do believe in Martin L Kings dream that the only way to be free is if everyone in. Have a nice day.

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  53. “I've seen several variations of these stories”

    Perhaps not all of these stories are “made up”. Maybe some are indeed factual (they are). Why is it when someone presents a point based on personal experience the only way for you to counter their point is to call them a liar? Can’t you or your friends come up with a better argument than that? All white people are liars I guess if their views/comments/experiences don’t match your beliefs.

    BTW, I’ve met a lot of blacks who are usually indoctrinated to believe that they are victims and when they don’t get their way it’s because they’re black. And I assume you are also familiar with the concept of black male bonding, where they feel a need to rip white people apart and talk trash just like your white co-workers. So is this really a white problem, or one of human nature?

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  54. Oldenough, your defensiveness towards previous posts only strengthen them. Of course, not all whites do this; but, a good number do. Morpheus pretty much refers to those that do. I'm sensing that, perhaps, you may have been one in the past or the present.

    Are you a black male? What is your frame of reference for black male bonding? (I also refer to your "What about "fill in the blank group".... red herring argument also found in the playbook.

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  55. A good number of white people do what, honeybrown? Lie? Guess what, everyone lie’s from time to time.

    Anom made some valid points and the only counter you and Morpheus could come back with was to call him a liar. Morpheus contends every white person who tells a story like this is lying, has low self-esteem, and is threatened by successful black people. You claimed it was all BS. What are you basing your claim on? Your personal opinion on white people? Aren’t you being narrow minded by dismissing the idea because it’s easier than admitting it could have happened? Are you even reading what Anom has written before you start with a reply?

    My question back to you is: What difference does it make if I’m black or not? Would this alter your opinion of what I said before (let’s be honest here)? We both know people of every color say things about others groups whether it’s based on race, religion, gender, or sexual preference. This is not a white problem, it’s a human issue. So why bring it up as if it’s just a white problem. That was my point in the second part. Please open your mind and stop trying to follow your personal agenda.

    BTW, who is, “them”? I assume these are white people who disagree with your views. Really, look at your own words and thoughts before saying someone is full of BS or a racist.

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  56. "A good number of white people do what, honeybrown? Lie? Guess what, everyone lie’s from time to time."

    Really? Wow, you learn something new every day!

    "What are you basing your claim on? Your personal opinion on white people? Aren’t you being narrow minded by dismissing the idea because it’s easier than admitting it could have happened?"

    You ask me to not dismiss a claim? Yet, you are dismissing claims presented by others. I based my claims on empirical research of others and myself (It's good to know that my work towards a Ph.D comes in handy). While few anecdotes are true, a majority of them stem from some imagined paranoia that claims any success of POCs stem from no actual hard work, but getting by their sheer color. Oldenough, does direct and indirect experience count? Or, is that not enough for you?

    "Are you even reading what Anom has written before you start with a reply?"

    Why, yes, I have! Ordinarily, when I engage in debate, it's good to have another party present or else appear nutty.

    "My question back to you is: What difference does it make if I’m black or not? Would this alter your opinion of what I said before (let’s be honest here)"

    You didn't answer it; so, I am going to go with my assumption of you not being a black man. I know that humans share the same qualities (hello, Captain Obvious). However, when members of one grouping claim to know members of the other grouping based on stereotyping, not actual engagement, it does alter the "insight" of that member.

    When you claimed to know what typical black male bonding consists of by throwing the behavior of "trash talking" whites as fact, yeah, I came to assume you weren't a black male as I have been privy to such bonding as both wife, sister, mother, granddaughter, niece, and so forth of such men.

    "BTW, who is, “them”?"

    Yes, they are those white individuals who pull out their often cliched playbook of common white tendencies, which Macon D. discusses daily. Catch on. It might help you.

    Also, if it helps, I am the daughter, granddaughter, ex-girlfriend, niece, and so forth of white males as well. I'm aware of fearful white male bonding (as to differentiate from typical white male bonding) as I've been privy to that, both directly and indirectly.

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  57. Oldenough, just wondering -- are you one of the readers who made their way over here from the renowned white nationalist site that recently linked (disparagingly, of course) to this blog? I see that the person who linked to this blog there also encouraged fellow white nationalists/supremacists to leave comments here, so I'm just wondering now who those commenters are. If they'd be willing to identify themselves, that would be helpful, so the rest of us know better where they're coming from, as it were. Do they include you, Oldenough?

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  58. I pointed out everyone lies because from your comments you seem to have forgotten it was true.

    “You ask me to not dismiss a claim? Yet, you are dismissing claims presented by others. I based my claims on empirical research of others and myself (It's good to know that my work towards a Ph.D comes in handy)”

    Actually I haven’t dismissed anyone’s claim. I was asking you to explain where your proof was that anom was lying. Since you didn’t answer, I can only “assume” like you did that it came out of your rear.

    BTW, I don’t care if you have a Ph.D. I’ve met plenty of self-claimed smart people who don’t have a lot of common sense when it comes to applying what they learn. You may or may not be one of them and I’m certainly not going to accuse you based on a few conversations. However, you do seem to believe you have all the answers and are trying to back it up with a degree. People who do this are blinded to other people’s ideas and never grow beyond their own walls. I also have a degree, but it’s meaningless unless I use it correctly. At least that’s what they taught me in college.

    “While few anecdotes are true, a majority of them stem from some imagined paranoia that claims any success of POCs stem from no actual hard work, but getting by their sheer color”

    Again, where is your proof? Did you take a poll? Did you interview all these people who wrote these stories? Or is this really your opinion? Be truthful now. It’s so much easier to say what Anom wrote was a bunch of BS and move on, isn’t it. Otherwise it stands in stark contras to your own beliefs system.

    “You didn't answer it; so, I am going to go with my assumption of you not being a black man.”

    If you say so, but you know what happens when you assume. Maybe I’m a black woman. Maybe I’m Asian. Or maybe I am white. What difference should this have on my opinion unless you only respect those given by black people? Isn’t being open-minded means listening to what other people of other cultures have to say?

    “Yes, they are those white individuals who pull out their often cliched playbook of common white tendencies, which Macon D. discusses daily. Catch on. It might help you.”

    Macon D dismissed everything Anom said as a lie then started to stereotype white males. I have yet to see either one of you show a shred of evidence that the majority of white males fit this description or disprove black people don’t do the same thing. These are opinions you want to state as fact; but they are just your opinions. I’m sure my questioning someone with a Ph.D. may make you uncomfortable, but that is a fact and you two got called on it. Show me the proof that any of what Macon said is true and I’ll agree with you. I’ll make it easy on you. Prove to me that Anom is lying. I’ll settle for that.

    “Also, if it helps, I am the daughter, granddaughter, ex-girlfriend, niece, and so forth of white males as well. I'm aware of fearful white male bonding (as to differentiate from typical white male bonding) as I've been privy to that, both directly and indirectly.”

    Good for you. I also have family/friends and learned from them as well. So what? The point is it’s still a personal opinion based on; here is the key Ms. Ph. D., personal experience in your little corner of the world. That doesn’t mean the rest of the world turns the same way. If you’re going to make statements like above you need to have facts to back them up. The only thing you shown so far is the ability to call someone a liar because their personal experience stands in the way of “your playbook”.

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  59. Macom, I'm not assosicated with these bigots/morons nor will I ever be. Hope this answers your question.

    BTW -- there is nothing personal with my comments. I'm just trying to keep real. Sometimes, myself included, we get stuck in our own lane and don't want to change and see what's around us. A fresh idea can change our world.

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  60. Oldenough, once again, if this doesn't apply to you, why are you so defensive?

    You doth protest too much.

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  61. “Oldenough, once again, if this doesn't apply to you, why are you so defensive?”

    Once again? When did you ask me the first time honeybrown? I thought we were here to educate each other with different views and ideas. I’ll admit I don’t have a Ph.D., but I do have some experience dealing with people and that should count for something.

    “You doth protest too much.”

    Really? Let’s look at what I’m “protesting” about? Opinions toted as facts when they are not. Someone with a Ph.D. who feels entitled to call someone they don’t know a liar because it goes against what they preach? Twisting of words to make them into something they are not. Sorry, but I think it’s you who protest too much honeybrown.

    Once again, please look at your own words and thoughts before saying someone is full of BS or a racist. I know it’s not the most comfortable thing to do, but it will help you get out of this nice little box you created.

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  62. Morpheus, I commend your effort in breaking down the affirmative action meme that it hurts whites and burdens the employer and employee with slothful unqualified, low IQ Black workers who are taking away valuable resources from always to be assumed quality and of course consistently qualified White people.

    Of course it will fall on deaf ears since Blacks can make equally "factual" ancedotal claims of slothful Whites who get positions because they knew somebody, etc and hardly work and yet draw a considerable paycheck etc. But alas, because the person is Black it is automatically assumed that we don't belong, whereas Whites, by divine right of having such profound moral, intellecutal, and cultural superiority, they naturally belong there.

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  63. I swear I'm repeating myself more than necessary.

    Oldenough, listen I'm discussing those individuals actually using this tendency in their daily lives. I did not say all whites. Do you not understand the nature of this blog, which states the common white tendencies of some, not all, whites?

    If you know that some whites don't have this tendency, you've proven my point that not all whites act this way. So, what are you arguing?

    All = the entire sum of a group

    Some = a small number of a group

    (Also, I am working on my Ph.D. I don't have it yet as I stated. But, despite my extensive research, you'd shrug that off as nonsense because you don't acknowledge it.)

    To the Last Anonymous:

    Please list your name as to differentiate yourself from other "Anonymous" visitors. I don't think Macon D. would want you associated with them.

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  64. Thank you oldenough for stating my position better than I could ever hope too. Despite what a few say, these things did happen to me. They aren’t second-handed incidents heard in a back room or embellished to make my point. Discrimination happens even to white people and denying that it does or means less than if it happens to a black person shows are far we still have to go. Apparently my views have fallen on deaf ears. Many have already made made up their mines. Very, very sad when you can only see things one way.

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  65. Are you the Anonymous at July 14, 2009 10:36 AM, or the next one, who called me "Macom"?

    This is the problem with Anonymous comments -- what's so difficult about coming up with a name, as requested?

    I would turn off the anonymous function, but then people who don't have accounts couldn't use a name to leave comments.

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  66. Anonymi (is that plural anonymous?) and other white folk who talk of being discriminated against,
    I know, and yes everyone here knows, that there are black people who treat white people unfairly. There may be some solid instances of workplace bafoonery on the part of some black people that is only exaserbated by "our" (white people's)egg shell dance in all things racial, but please understand this:
    In instances where white people show themselves racist, or discriminate, or instrances where a black person complains of discrimination or inequity,
    these are not the times to proffer your stories of white hardship. To bring these things up at this time is innapropriate in that it gives the air of not only being insensative but at some fundamental level reminds us of childish "he started it" sorts of fights where one defends themselves without actually listening to the accusation.

    Does the idea of a black person performing poorly at work have anything to do with kids getting kicked out of a pool for being black? Does your complaints of whites being discriminated against have ANYTHING to do with the credability of complaints about white racism?
    You cannot defend a negative with a negative and doing so in this sort of venue does seam overly defensive and provoking.
    Rather than complaining of how bad you have it in a "me too" sort of way, why not take your personal instances and use them as a source from which to draw empathy and fight against white racism?
    If you were treated unfairly as an individual, imagine how it is to be treated so as a group, and not just treated that way by an institution or individual, but by the govt. and an opposing group so numerous that you have very little recourse.

    "me too" does not serve you well here.

    ReplyDelete
  67. I wrote both of these posts.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Bro, if the only thing you got from my messages was "me too" then you missed the point. I have in fact taken my personal instances and use them as a source from which to draw empathy to fight not just "white racism", but ALL racism. This includes but not limited too, religious beliefs,atheist, gender basing, gays, transpeole, and so on. However, it seems this group only wants to focus on one type of racism. So be it.

    Since my opinions seem to be causing people here a great deal of
    distress I’ll leave you in peace. Just remember, not everything is black and white so please stop believing that it is.

    ReplyDelete
  69. "Perhaps not all of these stories are “made up”. Maybe some are indeed factual (they are). Why is it when someone presents a point based on personal experience the only way for you to counter their point is to call them a liar? Can’t you or your friends come up with a better argument than that? All white people are liars I guess if their views/comments/experiences don’t match your beliefs."


    (1) I assume you possess the ability to read and more importantly, comprehend basic information. It is a rhetorical mystery why you would jump to the conclusion that the net result of the experiences I shared in detail would amount to me calling all white people who tell such stories liars. I think that it was clear and remains clear to people who have IQs higher than their body temperatures that there exist a phenomena or a movement if you will, where known racists and their sympathizers go around polluting Internet message boards and blogs with what amounts to racist propaganda. Stating this fact does not automatically, make all white people liars. Furthermore, the specific example I gave outlined a common tendency among whites (not exclusive by any means) to color and shoehorn situations into some kind of racists conspiracy when non exists.

    (2) Anonymous "made some valid points": Sure, if you consider what amounts to the perpetuation of racist propaganda a valid point. I am always amazed at the self-righteous posturing of people who show up on leftist sites and those that deal with the pathology of whiteness and attempt to drag the conversation down into a pseudo-scholarly debate over the merit or lack thereof of a particular point. I along with many others could accept such protests as legitimate if the people that raise these issues could point to a single instance of a dissertation they've given to racists about generalizing and telling out-right-lies about people of color. However, not surprising, this information does not exist.

    Therefore, if one were to ask the question, what is this protest really about? let me make a suggestion it is two-fold:

    (a) Racists naturally have an unhealthy obsession with their imagined victimization by POC and their white sympathizers. Therefore, they feel personally attacked and feel compelled to respond in defense of whiteness.

    (b) Practicing their usual sense of victimhood, they try to change the subject of white-pathology into one about black-pathology. Never mind the fact that there are plenty of places for them to engage in such foolishness with equally clueless individuals without challenge and even encouragement.

    (3)" ...where your proof was that anom was lying..." Where is the proof that he's telling the truth? How do we validate such truth? is it empirical? is it anecdotal? What is the relevance to the current conversation? What is the motivation of bringing up such stories in said context? These are all valid questions. But in case you didn't know, claims made on the "Internets" by anonymous posters seem to follow an all to predictable pattern and lack even basic credibility. With that, I hope that you will think carefully about exactly what it is you wish to communicate and state it in the clearest possible terms because the mickey mouse racist propaganda in disguise routine is getting a little old.

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  70. “I swear I'm repeating myself more than necessary.”

    Hey, join the club.

    “Oldenough, listen I'm discussing those individuals actually using this tendency in their daily lives. I did not say all whites. Do you not understand the nature of this blog, which states the common white tendencies of some, not all, whites? “

    Um, are we looking at the same blog? Comments from the blog and yourself are as follows.

    * However, given the ongoing, de facto white supremacy of American society and its institutions, most white Americans do have racist tendencies

    * When these racist actions happen, most white Americans will do almost anything to deny that what they did, and/or the effects of what they did, were "racist."

    * “Of course, not all whites do this; but, a good number do.”

    Sounds like we’re discussing more than just “some”, honeybrown. The word “most” is defined as “the majority of”, not a small group. I don’t know what your definition of “a good number” is but I’m pretty sure it’s more than “some”.

    “If you know that some whites don't have this tendency, you've proven my point that not all whites act this way. So, what are you arguing?”

    At the risk of repeating myself once more (wait, I am repeating myself), countering someone’s experience as being a lie with no facts to support your claim. I’ve asked several times to prove or at the very least explain how you know Anom is lying. I’ve asked you to present your facts that black people don’t have the same tendency you are placing on white people. Instead of answering you have deflected these questions. How are we (as a whole) going to move forward in any way, shape, or form if people like yourself present opinions as facts when there is not data to back it up?

    “(Also, I am working on my Ph.D. I don't have it yet as I stated. But, despite my extensive research, you'd shrug that off as nonsense because you don't acknowledge it.)”

    Not true at all. I have given you many opportunities to back your claims. What you are suggesting is I trust everything you say as fact because of your degree and work. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. If you want to prove your point you have to show how you came to these conclusions. So far you haven’t presented me with any facts to support your claims other than family/personal experiences and vague research you’re involved with. Not what I would consider a real solid foundation you can stand on.

    Everyone can have an opinion, honeybrown. That doesn’t make your opinion better or worse or than someone else’s. In the end it’s a testament to how you see the world, but that doesn’t make it fact or reality.

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  71. “I assume you possess the ability to read and more importantly, comprehend basic information."

    I believe so. Let’s also assume the same about you shall we.

    "I think that it was clear and remains clear to people who have IQs higher than their body temperatures that there exist a phenomena or a movement if you will, where known racists and their sympathizers go around polluting Internet message boards and blogs with what amounts to racist propaganda."

    True. But explain to me how someone stating an opinion different from yours is racist propaganda in all cases? I might be wrong, but it appears you are saying that anything outside your beliefs is racist propaganda.

    "Stating this fact does not automatically, make all white people liars."

    When you start out by saying “Now, let me tell what I know about people who tell these tales” you have pretty much decided they are all liars. IMO, and it is just my opinion but I believe his writing supports this: Anom was reaching out for answers. You pretty much closed the door on him and everyone else that had an opinion or personal experience different from yours. Explain to me how this help’s solves racism or at least improves the situation?

    "Furthermore, the specific example I gave outlined a common tendency among whites (not exclusive by any means) to color and shoehorn situations into some kind of racists conspiracy when non exists."

    You mean your opinion on what the common tendency is. Just because you say it’s true, doesn’t make it so. I once knew a man who claimed he built a rocket and walked on the moon. He also believed his words as the only truth. Now there is a big difference between what you said and what he believed, but you get the idea I hope. Believing you are right doesn’t mean you are.

    "(2) Anonymous "made some valid points": Sure, if you consider what amounts to the perpetuation of racist propaganda a valid point."

    Um, you really need to open your mind just a tad here. If you re-read what he wrote his messages were championing that everyone should be treated equally. You may not buy his belief that setting up scholarships for blacks only builds a wall, but I would hardly consider what he wrote “racist propaganda” either.

    "I along with many others could accept such protests as legitimate if the people that raise these issues could point to a single instance of a dissertation they've given to racists about generalizing and telling out-right-lies about people of color."

    Based on your replies (and that of others on this blog) I find this very hard to believe. The first thing you do is attack the person and justify it by saying the only reason they are here is to attack your ideas and beliefs. What you don’t say outright but imply is that they have no right to come here and speak an opinion that differs from yours. Free thoughts be damned, we have an agenda on this blog and no one is going to threaten our “playbook”. It would comical if it wasn’t for the fact of what is lost in this process.

    "Therefore, if one were to ask the question, what is this protest really about?"

    That you are just as close minded as the ones you are accusing of being. I have yet to see the difference, except that you’re yelling we’re the good guys? Yet your tactics are the same. You don’t want open dialog. You want to dictate to everyone how it is and if someone has a different experience or opinion then they are a:

    1. Liar
    2. A racist who is going around polluting Internet message boards and blogs

    You won’t even consider option 3; that maybe this person is looking for answers and is trying to use personal examples to show where he/she is coming from. How are your tactics any different from what white racist use that you claim to loath?

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  72. I wasn't aware this blog had a character count. The rest of what you wrote is as follows.

    “let me make a suggestion it is two-fold:”

    “(a) Racists naturally have an unhealthy obsession with their imagined victimization by POC and their white sympathizers.”

    It appears they are not the only ones with imagined victimization.

    “(b) Practicing their usual sense of victimhood, they try to change the subject of white-pathology into one about black-pathology. Never mind the fact that there are plenty of places for them to engage in such foolishness with equally clueless individuals without challenge and even encouragement.”

    Okay, so anything that differs from white-pathology is foolishness and all their followers are clueless. Got ya. That’s about as close-minded as you can get btw.

    “(3)" ...where your proof was that anom was lying..." Where is the proof that he's telling the truth?”

    At least you answered my original question. I thank you for that.

    “With that, I hope that you will think carefully about exactly what it is you wish to communicate and state it in the clearest possible terms because the mickey mouse racist propaganda in disguise routine is getting a little old.”

    Are you referring to Anom, or me? You make it sound like I’m one of those racist propagandists you referred to earlier, which I am not. But then we don’t see eye to eye so I must be wrong. Or will you perhaps accept the idea that I might have different opinions from yours and still not be a racist.

    Since you were so kind as to make a suggestion for me; let me return the favor by offering some friendly advice. Not everyone who disagrees with is your enemy nor are they always racist propagandist or sympathizers trying to pollute your way of thinking. Maybe they have an opinion different from yours and that’s not always a bad thing. Food for thought.

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  73. “Apparently my views have fallen on deaf ears. Many have already made made up their mines. Very, very sad when you can only see things one way.”

    1st Anonymous this isn’t the group for you but keep looking. There are open-minded people out there who will accept your views without considering you a racist propagandist. This isn’t that group. Keep searching.

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  74. Oldenough, don't speak for me like that (i.e., wrongly). I don't consider 1st Anonymous a racist propagandist. "Misguided" and "uninformed" are better summaries of what I would say, based on his or her writings here. That person accuses me of being "racist" for making broad statements on this blog about common white tendencies. That person (and you, perhaps?) does not seem to realize that to be a "white" person in America is to be trained to be white, largely unconsciously -- to feel, and think, and act and react in ways that are much more common among white people than among non-white people. That's not "racist" -- it's simply true.

    Also, I'll repeat what I said above in response to that person. Some things definitely bear repeating:

    Anonymous, making broad statements about whites or blacks is NOT racist if those statements are true. It is not racist to say, for instance, that black people generally receive worse health care than whites do, nor is it racist to say, as I often do, that being raised as a so-called white person tends to instill common white tendencies. That doesn't mean, by the way, that all white people have them, nor that if they do, they act on them.

    Do you disagree with anything I'm saying in this comment? If so, please do explain how, and why.

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  75. Macon D.

    When will some individuals see that you can have a difference of opinion, even when that opinion is still racist? Also, when will they understand that these opinions need not be tolerated or accepted?

    On a related note, I love when some individuals use the phrase "vague research". It often applies that acceptance won't happen since you can't adhere it to their oft-misguided perspective?

    No matter how many times anyone proves otherwise, some individuals will choose to live their lives as a consistent wall-banger.

    Cheers, Macon D.

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  76. “Oldenough, don't speak for me like that (i.e., wrongly). I don't consider 1st Anonymous a racist propagandist. "Misguided" and "uninformed" are better summaries of what I would say, based on his or her writings here. “

    My reply was too Morpheus, but I see what you are saying and apologize for my comments if they offended you.

    “That person accuses me of being "racist" for making broad statements on this blog about common white tendencies.”

    You’re right Macon; some things are definitely bear repeating. What Anom said was…

    “Sorry Macom, but I disagree with you about broad statements. Board statements usually contain stero-typing that fuel distrust and anger toward each other. Usually they usually fit someone's agenda but don’t tell truth. And even if the statement fits 51% of the group targeted it’s still includes the other 49% who don’t fit that criteria – and usually the percent of people who it fits is far, far lower. Groups like the KKK use board statements toward black people that don’t reflect the REAL truth but rather than agenda.”

    You may see this as him calling you a racist, but I think the point he was trying to make it board statements offend people who don’t fit into that category. I can see it both ways, but by the way he starts off I think it wasn’t meant the way you took it. He certainly didn’t call you a racist, unlike others here who called him a liar because such a story could never happen in their world.

    “That person (and you, perhaps?) does not seem to realize that to be a "white" person in America is to be trained to be white, largely unconsciously -- to feel, and think, and act and react in ways that are much more common among white people than among non-white people. That's not "racist" -- it's simply true.”

    If that is your belief then go with it. But to say it’s the truth without evidence to back it up is not truth. It’s an opinion you can’t prove and it carries as much weight as someone elses with a different viewpoint. So when someone disagrees with your ideas you options. One is to call them an idiot and move on. The second is to listen to what they say and have an honest, open debate. The third is to accept not everyone believes what you do and move on.

    “Do you disagree with anything I'm saying in this comment? If so, please do explain how, and why.”

    There is a God in heaven that made the heaven and the earth. I may believe this to be true but someone else on this list will not. So how can we really know for sure if this statement is true unless there is evidence to back it up? You say black people generally receive worse health care than whites do. I ask how you came to that conclusion. Anom respectfully replied that there are a lot of white people in the same boat so why should the government design programs directed for black people or other minorities. Rather wouldn’t it be better to give such help to people in need. I ask you, is that really racist propaganda some have suggested it to be, or a different idea of how we should treat each other?

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  77. @Oldenough

    "True. But explain to me how someone stating an opinion different from yours is racist propaganda in all cases? I might be wrong, but it appears you are saying that anything outside your beliefs is racist propaganda."

    (1) Stating an opinion that appears to run contrary to the context of the conversation isn't racist in and of itself. However, changing the subject to white victimhood and black pathology no matter how smoothly it is done is a well known tactic. furthermore, making note of this fact does not stop anyone from expressing an opinion. So I ask the question what is the conspiracy?

    "When you start out by saying “Now, let me tell what I know about people who tell these tales” you have pretty much decided they are all liars."

    (2) You could have used the same intellectual ability to realize that the example immediately following those string of words were specific to a particular case-n-point. Furthermore, I don't think that it is unreasonable to make the assertion that people who regularly tell such tales are under similar influences and furthermore, are the rule rather than the exception. And assuming that their stories happen exactly the way that they said it did is more likely to be an exception rather than a rule which makes it all the more suspect. In simple terms, if you know the shoes don't fit, don't try to force your feet into them.

    "Anom was reaching out for answers."

    (3) Let's assume no malicious intent by anonymous. Then we are left with an individual that in spite of access to books, dvds, computers and people who could explain in a painful amount of detail the history of this country which I presume he is a citizen. His level of ignorance while astounding is not necessarily surprising. So let's examine how he "reached out for answers":

    (a) He starts out pseudo-intellectualizing about broad-terms. (I've already talked about this.)

    "My problem with the example you gave is the follow. Even if black people generally receive worse health care than whites, there are still A LOT Of poor white people in the same boat. Should we only design programs for blacks or target anyone who fits the criteria?"

    (b) If he doesn't know the reasons that some program are designed for POC then maybe his reaching out should start there. Furthermore, since he wants to talk about plight of white people, I assume he knows that (1) there are more poor whites in America than there are black people. (2) That Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are also advocates for the poor whites (3) Whites literally out number the amount of black and brown people on welfare. (4) Whites make up the majority of drug users in this country (5) Whites pretty much corner the corporate scams and cons market.

    (c) The rest of his "reaching out" basically boils down to an argument that (a) ignores the fact that millions of POC have been forced in to poverty as a result of racist government policies and individual and collective actions. (b) ignores the fact the this society still gives significant advantages to whites of all economic backgrounds at the expense of qualified POCs, credit worthy POC, law-abiding POCs, tax paying POC. (c) To make the point that "hey white people are discriminated against too." Therefore, I ask the question if the basis of that discrimination against POCs was RACE based, then why should the solution not be RACE based?

    This is a known racist tactic. Discriminate against POC, when someone tries to correct the wrongs, cry foul and do everything in ones power to undermine the effort to maintain the unfair advantage afforded to whites. Therefore, I stand by my assertion that the net result of his commentary err "reaching out" amounts to racist propaganda.

    That's my open-minded observation and it doesn't stop him from spewing or you from defending him.

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  78. It seems clear to me that racism exists in nearly all cultures.

    I'm curious what you think of what's going on in Zimbabwe:

    http://livingzimbabwe.blogspot.com/2009/03/white-farmers-you-are-not-welcome-in.html

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  79. It seems clear to me that racism exists in nearly all cultures.

    Yeah, so? This is a blog about stuff white people do -- did you notice the title?

    Why do white people so often feel a need to jump up and say, "But other people do that too!!!" What's up with that, ijostl? Where is that kind of very common white comment coming from?

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  80. Ijostl said:It seems clear to me that racism exists in nearly all cultures.

    Macon said:Yeah, so? This is a blog about stuff white people do -- did you notice the title?

    Why do white people so often feel a need to jump up and say, "But other people do that too!!!" What's up with that, ijostl? Where is that kind of very common white comment coming from?
    *************

    Me: Quite frankly, every time I hear it, it distracts people from discussing in-depth the actual issue at hand. There is no surer way to derail a conversation than saying "other people do it too."

    ReplyDelete
  81. What is racism? I think it is a group of people having their own exclusive beauty pagents, their own awards programs, their own talent shows, their own scholarship awards, their own magazines, their own voting league, their own advancement organizations, their own caucuses. Racism is when a group of people refuse to allow others join their organization, club or enter their leagues. Racists are usually the ones who are always first to blame others for being RACISTS. Just remember when you point the finger there are three fingers that point right back at YOU! I am kind of sick and tired of the whinning and the name calling. Move on with your life and ignore such stupid stuff. Maybe they were asked to leave because they failed to pay their membership dues, or maybe it was a private party, or maybe there wasn't enough supervision. Give us all a break and a benefit of a doubt.

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  82. Vomer, name some black or otherwise non-white organizations that forbid membership by people outside their racial group.

    Then wake up and realize how many other organizations and other groupings are, in a de facto if not a strictly de jure sense, basically all-white, like this swimming club.

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  83. How about the black panthers

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  84. Actually, the Black Panthers had alliances with non-black groups. Try again.

    ReplyDelete
  85. "It is not racist to say, for instance, that black people generally receive worse health care than whites do, nor is it racist to say, as I often do, that being raised as a so-called white person tends to instill common white tendencies."

    Tendencies? You are comparing something that statistically happens to blacks with a behaviorial tendency in whites. Sorry, try again.

    brohammas said...

    Anon,
    While many , many, whites are in fact dissadvantaged, the difference would be the root of how they got there."

    This is borderline offensive. Many poor whites in this country are descended from slaves also. And millions of other are from very poor backgrounds.

    "Why do white people so often feel a need to jump up and say, "But other people do that too!!!" What's up with that, ijostl? Where is that kind of very common white comment coming from?"

    well, it sounds like you are saying 'this is something white people do' and they are saying 'everybody does it so why are you singling out whites?' sounds like a logical complaint to me. Why ARE you singling out whites?

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  86. I personally dont think it was racist. For any pool to have 65 children in, is alot. My local pool can fit about 40 in, just kids, and they would be packed like sardines. Then if you consider the safety aspect, suppose one of them fell over or drown, even with additional lifeguards you can't keep an eye on everyone. That would result in a lawsuit that would cripple the centre.

    Conversely, the title "stuff white people do", is largely more racist than the content in the article, I would get crucified if I started a topic called "stuff black people do". Just my thoughts and opinions on this. People shouldnt be so offended by every little thing.

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  87. Thomas,

    It was racism, pure and simple. I am from Philadelphia and I know that area. No need to try to find excuses for the behavior.

    You would get crucified as a white male (which I'm betting you are) for creating a blog based on stereotypes, not experience as a black person. Macon D is a white male and he's writing from his perspective and experience as a white male. So Yeah.

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  88. Macon posts from the experience of a white male suffering from “white guilt”. He certainly doesn’t represent my views or that of most whites which is why the title is so offensive. Maybe he’s referring back to how he and his family conduct themselves with POC, but that’s how it is where I come from.

    The point Thomas made was the title is just a racist and stereotype as it would be if you substituted the word black for white. Why do people seem to think its okay to write or say racist things about a group if they are part of who they are offending? I’ve worked with black people who routinely call each other “nig$$$” as if it’s no big deal; that is until a white person calls them that. Then it’s racism with a capital R. So yeah, the title is largely more racist than the content in the article. Macon should try to be respectful of all colors, whites included. Or do we deserve less respect then POC in your eyes?

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  89. But White and Happy, I post about stuff that white people do indeed do. Not all white people do all of the things I post about, but as this blog's subtitle notes, some white people do each of them. Surely, for instance, you'll agree that as this post's title says, some white people do "hate to admit that they've done something racist."

    Do you think it's "racist" of me to point that out? If so, why, considering that some white people do indeed do that?

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  90. You post what you think white people do/think/say which is not the same as what some, most, or all white people do/think/or say depending on who you talk to here. THIS IS A BIG DIFFERNCE. Given the way you present your idea’s I don’t find the title any less racist than if a POC said the same thing word for word. Do I think it’s racist for you to point certain things out if they are true? No, but that’s not the problem with what you say. You claim stuff like “most white Americans do have racist tendencies” yet offer not concrete proof to back it up. So how can you claim this statement is true and therefore not racist if you can’t prove even beyond a reasonable doubt that it is factual?

    So yeah, I’ll repeat myself and ask the question again. The title is largely more racist than the content in the article and you should try to be respectful of all colors, whites included. Or do we deserve less respect then POC in your eyes?

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  91. You claim stuff like “most white Americans do have racist tendencies” yet offer not concrete proof to back it up. So how can you claim this statement is true and therefore not racist if you can’t prove even beyond a reasonable doubt that it is factual?

    The things that I claim a significant number of white people do (actions which evince their racist tendencies) are true because I can see -- and you could too, if you'd open your eyes more -- that a lot of white people DO do them. I also provide evidence in the posts that they do them; if instead I provided nothing but untrue stereotypes, then yes, the blog, including its title, would be disspectful.

    Again, take this post you commented on (assuming you . . . read it? or are you just a reader of titles?). A lot of white people do "hate to admit that they've done something racist." I offer evidence of this claim in the post, and I'm sure if you thought about it, you too could remember a lot of white people who feel that way. I'm sure if we did some research, we could also find sociological and psychological studies that show the same thing. Look around this blog beyond its title -- the posts repeatedly offer "concrete proof" that significant numbers of white people do the things the posts claim they do.

    The title is largely more racist than the content in the article . . .

    How so? The blog title is backed up by things written in the articles/posts.

    you should try to be respectful of all colors, whites included. Or do we deserve less respect then POC in your eyes?

    I am respectful of whites. I care about whites. As far as I know, everyone in my family is white, as are most of my friends. Because I care about them, and about the non-white people they encounter and affect, I want to encourage them to understand themselves better in terms of race than most of them do. That's not disrespectful; that's asking them to become less delusional and less harmful human beings.

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  92. Again, re-read my post. Just because you think the majority of white people think or act a certain way is not the same as the majority of them actually do what you claim. And if the word "black" was exchange for "white" in the title followed by some comments posted here you would be singing a different tune right now.

    "The things that I claim a significant number of white people do (actions which evince their racist tendencies) are true because I can see -- and you could too, if you'd open your eyes more "

    BTW, When you walk a mile in my shoes then you can tell me my eyes aren't open wide enough. I see things just as well as you do.

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  93. Where did I say the majority, white and happy? I said "significant numbers," which means many, which means enough to say that because many white people do this or that, it's worth pointing out as a thing white people do. And in most cases, shouldn't do.

    From what I can tell, you don't seem to quite get what this blog is all about. It's largely about what happens to white people when they learn to be white -- when they're subtly trained by society to think, feel, and act white. They don't all do those things in the same ways, but there's plenty about their trained inclinations that they don't usually realize, and that's worth pointing out. There's also a de facto set of white supremacist ideologies and systems working in the U.S., and elsewhere, that again most white people can't even see (and that, on the other hand, MANY non-white people CAN see, because they suffer their negative effects). Bringing some of that to light, and trying to explain how it works, is much of what's going on here.

    Does that make any sense to you? If so, what exactly are you complaining about?

    As for a site called "stuff black people do," if that's what you mean -- if it's about stuff that significant numbers of black people actually do (how about, "get worse health care"? "get discriminated against in virtually innumerable ways in the job market"? "get shunned disproportionately by loan officers"? "get longer prison sentences for the same crimes"? etc.), and if it includes informed description and analysis of why they do so, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

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  94. Macon,

    Click on this video link:

    linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anP_h6bM9AU

    You share your views well, so I want to give you an insight on why so many whites find your message of "white guilt" offensive and out of touch with reality. In case you have problems with the link, the music video is Amen from Kidd Rock. There are a couple of versions out there but you need to watch the original. You can find it out Youtube.

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  95. Thank you for the video, white and happy, hadn't seen it, very interesting articulation of (pandering to?) a lot of common white sentiment.

    Since you seem interested in engaging with me, I have a sincere question for you: how would you summarize my "message"? Please elaborate, that is, on what you mean when you say my message is "white guilt." It would also be great to hear, if you have the time, why you reject that message.

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  96. Give me a couple of days to put my thoughts together and I'll try to explain what I mean. Btw, it reflects the sentiments of a lot of people, not just whites in general.

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  97. i have a question, is this post assuming that no other race has "rascist tendencies" and that only white people can be rascist, just curious, because at face value it sure does seem that way, and for the record i am white, and i do have rascist tendencies, and i admit it, but so should everyone else

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  98. What I would like to point out is that Irish Americans were greatly discriminated against and actually enslaved during the reign of King James II and were sold as slaves to America and Australia as late as 1839. Yet this subject remains undiscussed even though the Irish Slaves may have suffered more than the African Slaves ever did. The American government has the habit of compensating those who they wronged in the Country's early days(ie african american and hispanic scholorship programs/native american reserves)
    except the Irish who not only never received reparations for the horrible events they went through, but have also never been recognized by schools or anybody at all as a culture that was enslaved. Irish Slavery isn't taught in most American history classes in my opinion because it didn't have a "happy" and "definitive" ending like that of African American Slavery which ended by means of the civil war

    and if you havn't guessed already I am Irish

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  99. Shane, here's a book you need to read:

    How the Irish Became White

    Irish slavery isn't a big deal in the U.S. because the Irish forsook bonds with their black brethen in favor of the wages of whiteness. The descendants of Irish immigrants now reap the benefits of white privilege, white the black descendants of slaves continue to suffer the opposite. In the U.S., oppression of the Irish is history; oppression of black people is not.

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  100. I am hearing a lot of common white tendencies in the responses of the whites here. Minimizing and me tooism, to name just two. Minimizing is when whites try to explain away things that are obviously racist or to claim that because they also experience discrimination to some degree or that because they are also underprivileged to some degree that what PoC experience is “not so bad” and we should just STFU because we’re stoking the fires of racism by even mentioning anything. I find this to be extremely insulting.

    Secondly, I’d like to address the person who expressed a third white tendency by pointing out how “blacks are racist too” with the following statement
    : Please someone give me a logical explanation based on fact rather than emotion about how this is anymore racist than the NAACP, the United Negro College Fund, Affirmative Action or BET (this list could go on for a long time BTW)?? Let us not forget that this is a private club with paid memberships. Why is it only considered to be a racist thing when white people do it? How can any of these programs designed to single out a specific minority not be looked at the same way?
    This exhibits a very piss poor understanding of history, and I’m not surprised. These programs exist because of white racism. And they are what have enabled blacks to survive in a culture that has been hostile to them. NAACP at one time actually had whites as founding members; United Negro College fund is a charitable organization to which anyone of any color can give. There are charitable organizations that have criteria to funnel money to many people in need, including white people. If BET is racist is RAI, BBC, or Russian TV, or Univision racist? That’s ridiculous. God knows there’s plenty of white TV it’s called ABC, NBC, CBS. Most of our media and entertainment centers on whites and their point of view. BET is simply a channel concentrating on a particular culture: African Americans. Yes, we are a culture.

    BTW, here is the actual definition of racism. Racism is more than just prejudicial attitudes – it is a system that advantages one race over another. Prejudice + Power = Racism. The people with real power in our society are whites. It doesn’t matter how poor whites may be, they still have power based on their skin color.

    If you all want to see white minimization in action, you should check out this exchange:
    http://chalkandtalk.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/why-are-all-the-black-kids-sitting-together-in-the-cafeteria-part-two/

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  101. Has any one here seen the movie"Crash"
    it sums up our situation here in America to the T.

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