Saturday, March 7, 2009

struggle with weird feelings after interracial encounters


[Regular reader Jonathan wrote an email asking for my thoughts about a confusing day he recently had. Jonathan said I could share his story here, and I've added my response as well. We're both wondering what you think too . . .]



Howdy Macon D,

I stumbled upon your webpage a while ago on accident and have been returning occasionally since.

Something happened to me yesterday that I am hoping you could help me reflect on.

I (white male, age 25) live in a decent neighborhood, not good, not awful, which I would guess is 85% black, 5% white, and 10% Hispanic, with most of the white population being elderly shut-ins. I was helping a neighbor across a city park from me cut up and remove a tree limb that fell on his property recently. This entailed me first bringing my chain saw over to his place, cutting the branch, and then removing the wood by hand. So, I had to make five or six trips to finish the job.

From the very start of this activity, a group of 4-6 boys (maybe as old as Sophomores in high school or as young as 7th graders) began shouting racists remarks at me and following me at a distance. Because of my cart, I was moving mostly on the pavement around the park, while they stayed in the center area. The phrases would typically be honky, redneck, other terms I hadn't even heard of. And of course, all of those terms mixed with expletives. They even offered to sell me, "some of that shit white people like." I tried to tune it out and keep my head forward as best as I could, but my ears were also open to hear if they were getting closer or further, so I did hear most.

Each time I would make a trip through or around the park, they would find me. They began timidly, but by the end they were shouting these remarks so loudly that there is no doubt that most of the homes surrounding the park could have easily heard. I was making these trips for ~2.5 hours and they kept it up the entire time. The only time they took a break was on one pass, when they addressed me as "sir" and asked if I had any cigarettes to give them. Upon me informing them that I did not, they immediately resumed the name calling. And, one of the kids pronounced loudly that he had smoked some "big-ass" blunts (the other kids tried to hush him from saying that).

This is a neighborhood where I often hear people saying racist things (going both ways), but never in such a way that they were hoping I was listening. In passing is fine by me, maybe that person had a bad day, is just letting off some steam, or is from a time and place where those types of words may have been permissible. This is the first time anyone has been so persistent in antagonizing me. Even when I returned a piece of equipment to my neighbor (who is a retired black man that commands some respect in the neighborhood), they continued to yell at me in his presence. By then it was nightfall, and they could yell from the darkness.

I guess I just feel funny from the whole experience. I never feared for my safety, I am a tall and strong man. They were certainly individually weaker than I (but had the numbers and possibly a weapon). But, I am shaken and took steps to keep them from knowing with 100% certainty which house I live in (though if they had half a mind they would know). And, these children are young enough that they have no excuse for using racist terms and thinking it all right. They certainly knew they were being offensive by their tone and persistence.

I guess the feeling is just that there is nothing I could do to make them stop. I don't know who the head of their households are. I could not confront them about it. I don't think that I had a serious complaint to make to a legal authority. And the worst part is, I can think of no plan of action if the same thing happens in the future.

Just curious if you had any thoughts that could help me get over this weird feeling. Thanks for your time and have a great day.

Thanks,

Jonathan

----

Hello Jonathan,

Thank you for sharing your story, and for letting me share it with this blog's readers. I hope they'll have some input too.

First of all, although I think and write as much as I can about being white in America, I should not try to write to you from a position of expertise or lengthy experience, in some sort of advisory capacity. I live in a much whiter neighborhood, for one thing, and I've never had a day like that. I also don't know you, nor how much thinking and interacting you've done so far in terms of race, including your own race.

That said, I find it admirable that although you don't know what that "weird feeling" was, you are trying to articulate it. Unlike people of color, your white self could easily turn away from moments that bring on racial self-awareness. But you haven't done that.

So, what could that weirdness inside of you be? And what might you have done differently that day?

I imagine that part of you wants to complain and lash out at what seems like unfair and even potentially dangerous racism, which was aimed at you, when all you were doing was going about your life in that neighborhood, and on that day, even helping a neighbor. And yet, there's another part of you that feels differently. Maybe that's the part that compels you to do things like read this anti-racist blog, and to struggle against thoughts and feelings that you know are wrong. You may well know that white people, people who are like you in at least that sense, control this society--that we live in a de facto white supremacist society, which in most of its sectors privileges people like you over people who are not white. People like those boys who were giving you a hard time.

So what's a well-meaning white guy to do, and think, in a situation like that? You thought what they were doing was wrong--would it have been an unwarranted assertion of your white male privilege to somehow try to stop them?

In a way, I see a kind of white, male privilege reflected in how you didn't stop them. You kept your "head forward" as you went about your business, and you were able to do so because the "racism" coming at you basically seemed harmless. You pretty much knew they weren't really going to mess with you, at least not in open daylight.

That purposeful, onward movement of yours, that freedom to go about your business with relatively unimpeded confidence--doesn't that parallel our white male privilege more generally, the way it encourages us to operate in the world? I think it does, in the sense that we can almost always turn away from people or incidents that make us aware of our racial, and/or gendered, status. We can turn away and carry on with our business, relatively confident that no one's going to get in our way. Non-white people have a harder time doing that, and feeling that way while doing it, and so do women.

But then, as you also seem to know, and fear, those boys really could be dangerous. Maybe they do resent your white presence enough to harm you, or at least your house, or maybe it's not even your whiteness that could make you their target. Which is why you made sure they wouldn't know where you live. And then you felt "shaken" by those hours of taunting, perhaps with anger, but perhaps with fear as well. Although I think it's good to think about your white male self on that day as a relatively empowered self, it's also good to be realistic. A group of boys of any color, doing such a thing to me in any neighborhood, would make me worry about further attacks.

So, I wonder if you could have defused the situation somehow. When you kept your head "forward" like that, and basically ignored those boys, could they have interpreted that as arrogance? As a familiar, particularly white disrespect and disregard for who they are, as young black men? I of course have no idea what they were thinking, but I wonder, could your apparent attitude be a reason that they called you "sir" at one point, to point out what seems to them a typically white aloofness?

I wonder what might've happened had you tried to talk to them, in a respectful, friendly way. You said you didn't feel particularly endangered physically, because even though they might've had weapons, you're a big guy. What if you had stopped what you were doing and walked over them and asked, "Can we talk? Who are you guys? [which sounds very white, but hey, you are white] Anyone interested in helping me with this job I'm doing? What are your names? Do you live around here?" And so on.

You said that "the worst part is, I can think of no plan of action if the same thing happens in the future." Could that be a plan of action? Or am I just fantasizing about interracial harmony, because such actions would only place you in even more danger?

Thank you for sharing your story, Jonathan, and your confusion. I wish I had something more wise and concrete to say. I hope you'll write back with more of your thoughts and feelings, and good luck to you if this kind of thing happens again. As I said, I applaud your efforts to understand this incident and your place in it, instead of just acting on common, knee-jerk responses.


And finally, dear readers, what do you think of all this? Any thoughts or advice?

Have you ever been involved in similar incidents? What did you do?

34 comments:

  1. i am glad that Jonathan didn't just shrug this off, as most people do (referencing your previous post of how white people ignore racism directed at them, which also reminds me of a clip from the boondocks cartoon where the white guy laughs at the black guy and says, "wait a minute; i'm white!" and walks away.

    while i similarly don't really have any advice for Jonathan, his experience made me remember an incident that happened to me on my first day of 6th grade at a brand new school. i used to live in a city near detroit, which was about 80 percent black, but by then i was already used to being the token white kid in class. i was heading for the bus after school. this girl was talking to her friends, and bumped into me. maybe it was my fault, but i was always anxious i was going to miss the bus, or not find a seat (while some kids were nice and would let me sit next to them, it was much easier to find my own seat and let someone sit next to me) so maybe i was walking too fast to avoid her. at any rate, we bumped into each other, and as i muttered my shy-kid apology, she blurted "watch where you're going, white-trash!"

    i was really confused--no one had ever called me that before, i didn't understand how me bumping into someone required a mentioning of my race. when i got home i asked my mom about it, and was even more confused because i had never set foot in a trailer park before. it still bothers me. but the rest of the time i spent at school i would still get the occasional white trash remarks, but never from my close friends and classmates--usually from kids in different grades, kids i had never spoken to. i don't think i ever responded, because i thought it would make things worse. usually if it was started by bumping into someone i would apologize and be on my way (this scenario happened quite often, thank you overcrowding in schools). i never really felt outnumbered until these situations would present themselves--basically until someone pointed out my whiteness (and i wasn't really friends with the other white kids since they were the underachieving smokers, and i hung out with kids with better grades--kids less likely to ask me to do their homework). i don't know if any of this helps except to say well, we've all been there. or at least some of us.

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  2. They were not being "racist" towards you, they were just testing you, to see how far they can push you, how much of their bullshit you will accept. If you had been black (I am assuming that you are new to the neighbourhood?) and new to the area, especially if you were young, of their age group, they would have teased you, too. Only thing is they wouldn't have had your whitenss to base their teases on, it would have been some other button of who you are that they would have pushed: Your clothing or your skin colour or your hair or any other damn thing that they teased out of your "physical" appearance that they could get on you about. In your case, as a young white man in a mostly black neighbourhood (their neighbourhood) the physical thing that they are going to rag on you about is your whiteness, because that is what it is about you that stands out for them to fuck with you about. (You can be assured that if you were a very dark-skinned black person, especially, the blue-black variety, that that would have been something that they ragged on you about.)

    The other thing, too, is that kids, especially young men are brutal. I am going to venture a guess that this type of behaviour is not exclusive to blacks, but to damn near every [racial] group's young men. Probably, you have experienced it in your life, but never from blacks. (If you were never teased when you were a teen/young man, then consider yourself lucky, because growing up is a bitch!) If other white dudes did tease you, since they were white, too, they did not have to base their teasing on your whiteness--perhaps, they based it on (if the following applied to you) your poor personal hygiene or your goofy parents or your geekieness or your introvertness or you not being good looking...heck, the list is endless.

    Check out season four of the wonderful television series, "The Wire." The show is set in the predominantly black city of Baltimore. Season four focuses on the education system of the city, with the story based on four boys and their movement through that system. One of the four boys, named Duquan (a.k.a. Dukie) is teased by the other three, although all of them are friends and all of them are the same race.

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  3. Please forgive my profanity (see comment above). I just came off of a marathon viewing of "The Wire" (which I mentioned in my comment above), and the language of the show has seeped into my brain and out of my mouth/fingers (typing on the keyboard).

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  4. Yeah, I agree with redcatbiker; the fact that this encounter even happened had more to do with the boys' age than anything else.

    In my own “interracial encounters,” the only places I've ever experienced direct confrontations involving racial epithets between grown men have been bars--once directed at me. Even in this case, race wasn't so much a factor as the carousing that led up to the incident; racial difference was pretty circumstantial.

    Other than this instance, I've only had epithets flung at me from car windows in passing. Anyone who directly insults your race is just looking for a fight and isn't worth your time.

    You did the right thing: just keep walking. If it persists, though, you might consider talking to your neighbor--who you said commands respect in the community--about the boys' behavior. He may be willing to have a word with them or at least be able to offer more context-specific advice.

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  5. I personally think that you did the right thing to keep walking. Confronting a group of kids would not have been safe. Clearly these kids were looking for nothing but trouble. I believe that they used race to assault but if you had been black they simply would have picked something else.
    I cannot offer a plan of action for next time. These kids should have known better and the respected neighbor that you spoke about should have opened his mouth to say something. I know that my kid would not have gotten away with it.

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  6. Interesting post. So, it sounds like so far the concensus is that Jonathan can just shrug off his "weird" feelings, because he did the right thing after all? What IS that weird feeling? I'm wondering if Macon got at some of the source of those feelings in a way that's being overlooked in the assurances that he (simply) did the right thing. If that's the case, does that mean he can just think like most white people do, and forget there's anything significant about his whiteness in that day? Aside that is from the boys' coincidental targeting of it, instead of, say, his hair or his clothes?

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  7. I found Jonathan's reference to "weapons" the kids could have had to be kind of odd. It just seemed to me that he described rather non-threatening kind of "teasing." Not that I fault him for being concerned about his safety... it just seemed like he described kids getting their kicks trying to get under his collar as opposed to kids who would have harmed him for some reason.

    I don't quite know what I think about this... While I'm likely to agree that this is just something juveniles do, I find it indefensible and uncalled for even knowing how what RedCatBiker said about blue-black skinned (and very light-skinned) African Americans is true from personal experience.

    I will say this: at least Jonathan's story doesn't take the usual turn others do with the White person implying or stating outright that the kids behavior (and most times its kids) represent the Black community, as a whole, and "Black's are the ones who are the most racist."

    The stories I've heard before, whether true or fabricated to some extent, usually don't include a Black person like Jonathan's neighbor. I could only imagine what those other White people would say even if their stories included an *elderly* neighbor like Jonathan's.

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  8. That Jonathan was so threatened by the experience and saw the kids' race as the reason they were insulting him seems to me like a prejudiced reaction. I've talked to high school aged kids before and many of them are just delighted to pick (justifiably I think) on adults' stuffiness and self-importance. And white adults, I think, tend to have more of that. So what would have happened if Jonathan had responded with a sense of humor? Maybe it's a dangerous situation, but if you go through life without laughing at stuff like that you're bound to have a boring life.

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  9. Jonathan, you say,

    >I never feared for my safety, I am a tall and strong man.

    and

    >I guess the feeling is just that there is nothing I could do to make them stop

    and you also assume that they had a weapon? Why did you assume that?

    For me I admit this sounds odd. Already that the guys have shown such endurance, 2,5 hours, without getting bored and that you felt safe when you assume they had a weapon. Or why do you mentioning that? Sorry I have to admit that this sounds somewhat like a "look how cool I am" story, where some things just don't match. But of course I can be wrong

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  10. First - I don't know that Jonathan "assumed" the kids had a weapon - he was pointing out that if the exchange became confrontational, they could conceivably over-power him. I am a white dude who grew up in rural poor white neighborhoods (including a trailer park). Pretty much all of my friends carried a decent pocket knife.

    Second, I'm not sure that confronting them by asking their names, where they live, about their parents would be a good approach. What, are you going to threaten to tell their parents?

    As far as diffusing the situation, I think that it could have been done early on in the day, and I agree with the others that you may have projected a superior attitude about yourself.

    I spend a lot of time volunteering at an urban location in a diverse neighborhood. I spend some of that time in the actual neighborhood, and a few times a week walking a few blocks from my car to the building. I make it a habit to acknowledge everyone I encounter in some way - be it saying hi, the "hello wave", or even just a nod or eye contact.

    One day I was running errands, so I was in and out of the neighborhood several times. I walked past a group of black kids just kindof hanging around behind a school building near where I park sometimes (this was a Saturday). The first time I walked by, they definitely got quiet as I approached and they were essentially staring at me. Instead of crossing the street, or looking straight ahead and ignoring them (whats the difference anyway?) - I scanned their eyes (not their hands) with mine and said - "how's it going guys". And kept walking.

    One of them nodded slightly, and the other three literally just stared at me with straight faces. The next time through, two of them sorta smiled. After that, I'm sure they noticed me, but they just carried on their business.

    It stands to reason that they wondered why I was in their neighborhood, and rightfully so. If kids that look like them showed up in my neighborhood growing up, I would have wondered the same thing! They might not have actually gotten an answer, but I showed them a little respect and expressed that I had no reason to question THEM. Could it be that your refusal to acknowledge these kids gave them even more motivation to ding you with insults?

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  11. @Macon

    >Unlike people of color, your white self could easily turn away from moments that bring on racial self-awareness. But you haven't done that.

    Please explain what you mean, and also this:

    >That purposeful, onward movement of yours, that freedom to go about your business with relatively unimpeded confidence--doesn't that parallel our white male privilege more generally, the way it encourages us to operate in the world?

    >to point out what seems to them a typically white aloofness?

    white aloofness?

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  12. jw, to answer your question, when I wrote this,

    Unlike people of color, your white self could easily turn away from moments that bring on racial self-awareness. But you haven't done that.

    I meant that part of Jonathan's "weird" feeling may have been an awareness of his whiteness, something he isn't forced to be aware of all that often, if he's an ordinary white American. People of color often HAVE to deal with being made aware of their racial status, and that usually happens more often to them as well--it's much more difficult to turn away and shrug that off. When white Americans ARE made aware of their whiteness in some disturbing way, they often decline or turn away from thinking about their own racial status, and they're often much more free and even encouraged to do so. Also, if they continue to think about race in terms of whatever incident may have just prompted racial self-awareness, they often begin thinking, and complaining, about PoC, instead of thinking about their own whiteness. By writing to the writer (me) of a blog about whiteness, and by struggling with his "weird" feelings about that day, Jonathan seems not to be turning away from that topic of his own whiteness. Or so it seems to me.

    jw also asked, "white aloofness?"

    I'm using "aloof" in its normal sense there, to describe a removed or distant attitude and behavior, an aura of self-confidence and presumed superiority, which I've seen white people display around PoC. I wasn't there that day, and I don't know Jonathan, so as I said in the post, I'm just speculating about the possibility that Jonathan was perceivable that way, and if so, whether, as GDS writes, acting differently might have dispelled a perception of such an attitude.

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  13. and this part:?

    >That purposeful, onward movement of yours, that freedom to go about your business with relatively unimpeded confidence--doesn't that parallel our white male privilege more generally, the way it encourages us to operate in the world?

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  14. That seems self-explanatory, jw.

    What do you think it says? Why do you ask?

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  15. >That seems self-explanatory, jw.

    why don't you want to answer?

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  16. jw, it's not that I don't want to answer. What I'm saying is, it reads as self-explanatory to me--I don't know how else to answer your apparent question ("What does this mean?") without just repeating what it says.

    Why don't you want to answer my questions about it? It would be easier to communicate with you if you'd say more than just, "what does this part mean?" and "what does that part mean?"

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  17. I am trying to figure out two things: Why did you post this topic and your answer to Jonathan doesn't make sense to me or I just don't get what you want to say. The parts I asked you to explain, are white males actually encouraged to go about their business in relatively unimpeded confidence in connection with such situations or is Jonathan's reaction more white people's confusion when PoC act in a way they are normally not used to. It does not look like feeling confident, but feeling "weird" because of not being in control in a situation.


    You also wrote: "to point out what seems to them a typically white aloofness?" which, I can't help, reminds me of your "whites are calm and rational".

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  18. jw, I posted this topic because it's a thing a white person did, as well as a thing that that white person was wondering about. I wanted to share his story and my response, and, especially, to read readers' reactions. I hope Jonathan will get something out of all this too, by way of sorting through his feelings (including any he might have about his own whiteness).

    The parts I asked you to explain, are white males actually encouraged to go about their business in relatively unimpeded confidence in connection with such situations or is Jonathan's reaction more white people's confusion when PoC act in a way they are normally not used to. It does not look like feeling confident, but feeling "weird" because of not being in control in a situation.

    Both seem possible, maybe even in the same person, and in the same moment. Like I said in the post, I'm not Jonathan, and I wasn't there, so all I could offer was conjecture about possible common white feelings and reactions that I think could arise in such a moment, conjecture that Jonathan might or might not connect with personally. Again, your conjecture seems possible too.

    You also wrote: "to point out what seems to them a typically white aloofness?" which, I can't help, reminds me of your "whites are calm and rational".

    Aloofness and calm rationality are different qualities, I'd say.

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  19. But the response wasn't his to make.
    The responsibility of keeping those kids in check belongs to the others in the majority in this situation.

    In this case - he did the right thing.

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  20. I must say, Jonathan did the right thing by keeping some distance between himself and the vermin that were harrassing him. The fact that he thought ahead far enough that they might have weapons was not racist but merely prudent.

    Not hearing the tone of their taunts, I can't say if talking to them would have diffused the situation. However, from personal experience,and observances, groups of black youth often tend to be much more violent when expressing/directing their angst at innocent people around them.

    Now don't go off on me. I'm not saying all black youth. There are trouble makers of all races... but the trouble makers in the black society do tend to be more violent. Simple fact.

    And I'm sorry Macon, but what does walking with self assuredness have to do with "white male privilege"?

    It was a merely stated that unless they ganged up on him, his size and stature gave him an edge. Gee, how "white privileged" were his genetics anyway? And what's with the "typical white aloofness" bullshit? Now who's generalizing?

    In my opinion, he was superior to them, whether white or not. That they would spend that kind of time debassing themselves with such juvenile remarks just demonstrates how ignorant and inferior they truly were.

    On another note Macon... I checked out those sites you gave me about the whole "color blindness" racism, And I've come to the conclusion that this blog isn't about dealing with and or eliminating racism. I'ts about perpetuating it. In your world, a person is racist if they treat someone of another color differently. And if they treat them the same, then they are racist for not recognizing that persons differences.

    I'm sorry but you CAN NOT have it both ways! You and your kind have developed a "chicken or the egg" senario which will perpetuate racism indefinately.

    Now, I can't visit here all the time, because I have a real life beyond a cyber life. But I will try to check in more often to keep up with the topics at hand.

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  21. First you said:

    "from personal experience,and observances, groups of black youth often tend to be much more violent..."

    Then you went on to say:

    "I'm not saying all black youth... but the trouble makers in the black society do tend to be more violent. Simple fact."

    It's clear that the latter is a function of the former making your circular declaration ("simple fact") nothing more than the product of your personal perceptions you want people to accept as fact.

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  22. what is typical white with aloofness?

    and again: are white males actually encouraged to go about their business in relatively unimpeded confidence? With that you mean I guess that white males can ignore situtation like this and are encouraged to do so, yes or no?

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  23. >I wanted to share his story and my response, and, especially, to read readers' reactions.

    And this is what I find odd, this is an alleged 'anti-racist' blog as you say. The subliminal or perhaps not so subliminal message to your "well-meaning white readers" is, if you move into a predominantly Black neighborhood you can be teased by Black people because of your race and they probably have a weapon. Exactly the stereotypical reasons for white flight and why many whites don't enter any Black neighborhood.
    Therefore, how is this topic in the way you bring it up relevant to an alleged anti-racist blog?

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  24. Brother of an Another color, what "color" are you? What does that online name mean?

    Why are you labeling a group of black kids "vermin"? Do you realize how much you automatically discredit the rest of your remarks by doing that?

    I don't accept your "simple fact" that young black troublemakers are more violent than others? Where's your evidence? Just "personal observation"? Sorry that's not at all convincing.

    And I'm sorry Macon, but what does walking with self assuredness have to do with "white male privilege"?

    You've got a lot to learn about the differences in treatment accorded to white and non-white people, and about what that does to different people's self-confidence while moving about in the world. I don't have space here to explain all of that to you.

    In your world, a person is racist if they treat someone of another color differently. And if they treat them the same, then they are racist for not recognizing that persons differences.

    That's such a generalized misstatement and oversimplification that I don't know where to begin in trying to respond.

    jw wrote, what is typical white with aloofness?

    I don't know what that is. But I do think that aloofness from racial awareness, and from "uncomfortable" racial feelings and the situations that can inspired them, is a common white attitude, as well as one that Jonathan seems not to be displaying in his effort to sort through his "weird" feelings about this incident (and about, perhaps, his own whiteness).

    and again: are white males actually encouraged to go about their business in relatively unimpeded confidence? With that you mean I guess that white males can ignore situtation like this and are encouraged to do so, yes or no?

    Yes, basically.

    The subliminal or perhaps not so subliminal message to your "well-meaning white readers" is, if you move into a predominantly Black neighborhood you can be teased by Black people because of your race and they probably have a weapon.

    That may be your (very narrow) reading of a subliminal message in the post, but it's not mine, and I doubt that most readers would get that from it, subliminally or not so subliminally. And the focus of the post, beginning with its title, is not the incident itself; it's sorting through the "weird" feelings the incident caused for a white person involved in the incident.

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  25. >I don't know what that is. But I do think that aloofness from racial awareness, and from "uncomfortable" racial feelings and the situations that can inspired them, is a common white attitude, as well as one that Jonathan seems not to be displaying in his effort to sort through his "weird" feelings about this incident (and about, perhaps, his own whiteness).

    what are you talking? YOU wrote:

    but I wonder, could your apparent attitude be a reason that they called you "sir" at one point, to point out what seems to them a typically white aloofness?

    therefore, what is a typically white aloofness?

    >Yes, basically.

    When you white men are encouraged to ignore situations like this, when you are in the one way or another challenged, why is it then so easy to confuse men and/or to make them defensive when they are no longer in control?
    Can that be that this might be the same perception like "calm and rational"?

    >That may be your (very narrow) reading of a subliminal message in the post, but it's not mine, and I doubt that most readers would get that from it, subliminally or not so subliminally.

    your reading/understanding of what you write is in many ways different of what you actually say.

    And wrong macon, I didn't read this subliminal message, I wrote: The subliminal or perhaps not so subliminal message to your "well-meaning white readers" is, if you move into a predominantly Black neighborhood you can be teased by Black people because of your race and they probably have a weapon. Exactly the stereotypical reasons for white flight and why many whites don't enter any Black neighborhood.

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  26. Macon,
    To me, any group of kids causing trouble are vermin. Doesn't really matter to me what color they are. If you look back, I referred to the "vermin harassing him", no mention of race involved. I suppose I could have been a little more specific by saying un-educated black youth troublemakers. But then I'm sure that their lack of education is also the "white man's" fault and not the actual responsibility of their parents, right?

    I live in a mid-sized city that is now about 60-65% minority, oops, that makes them the majority doesn't it? And btw, evidence IS personal observation. Without personal experience and observation, there is no such thing as evidence. For something to have meaning or relevance, it must be witnessed.
    Like seeing a group of middle school students on the schools' front lawn in a brawl that ends with one of the kids pulling a gun and pointing it right in the face of a kid in front of him.
    Or how about a local news story of four black youths (12-18 yrs) that beat a man ( a black man) to death because they thought he "dis-respected" them? Jumping on, and dropping bricks on his head.
    Or the slightly older youths, (early 20's) that I saw gang up 8 to 1 on a guy (once again, a black guy) and beat and kick him and hit him over the head with a 2x4?
    Or an actual friend from my teen days who used to brag about riding down the street shooting at other cars of rival gangs?
    Or a drive-by shooting I witnessed where the man simply shot at a house without any regard for anyone in the vicinity?
    This is a small sample of what I've seen, heard, read about in my hometown.
    How much have you witnessed in your hometown?

    On the flip side, I have yet to witness any of these things involving white youths. Not that it doesn't happen I'm sure, but as much as I see of the city I live in, if it were as prevalent in white society as in black, I really think I would have seen at least a few incidents in the last 30 odd years.

    'In your world, a person is racist if they treat someone of another color differently. And if they treat them the same, then they are racist for not recognizing that persons differences.'
    "That's such a generalized misstatement and oversimplification that I don't know where to begin in trying to respond."

    I'm sorry, but it is no misstatement. It may be generalized from all the posts I read, but it is exactly what the posts intimated within the back and forth dialogue. Personally, I believe that when someone says something is being "oversimplified" it really means that the answer actually is very simple. They just don't want to admit it because then they could not twist the phrase, situation, etc. to their advantage.

    Basically it's like the movie Henry V. There is about at 5-10 minute speech in the beginning in the language of Shakespeare that essentially meant "enjoy the movie" Yet everyone was in awe because of the 10 minute flim flam.
    Your flim flam doesn't sway me from what I see in the posts that you referred me to.

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  27. What does "brother of another color" mean?

    You say you've done quite a bit of reading here, but then you quote me as blaming things on "the white man." I don't believe I've ever described white supremacist America that way. You're obviously not reading closely, and you seem to have only read in search of confirmation for what you already believe, rather than for heightened understanding of how whiteness, and race more generally, work in America. There's clearly little hope for you, at least at this stage in your potential development. I can see that trying to refute anything you write here is a waste of time at this point in your life, because you'll only read it as biased bs from a person bent on little more than blaming all social ills on "the white man."

    Personal experience is anecdotal and limited, no matter how much of it you describe. It's filtered through your own limited, biased perspective. Got any research results, any long-terms studies to quote? Anyone who knows something about race and class in America from observation that's more informed than your singular, anecdotal, and thus necessarily myopic, point of view?

    Your flim flam doesn't sway me from what I see in the posts that you referred me to.

    Fine, go hang out at Stormfront then. I'm sure you'll find that a much more congenial environment for confirmation of the racist perspective that you refuse to move or see beyond. I do hope, though, that at some point, your view of things will become broader and more complex, and thus more humane. I do think you've got it in you.

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  28. My apologies for quoting you as blaming the white man. Not intended.

    But "white supremacist America" infers to me that the problems of our society, if run by a "white supremacist America", are trickled down.... to being the white man's fault. My interpretation, however erroneous, not yours.

    I also think you place too little importance on personal experience. Our experiences are what shape us, for better of for worse. In fact, experience is often more valuable than studies and research. You can have/do all the research in the world, but until you experience it, (whatever it may be) you will never have the full impact of that knowledge. Like the newly graduated college student. They may have degrees up the wazoo, but until they learn the job the way the employer want's it done, they are at a loss.

    Also, I never claimed to have been exceptionally well read on the "color blindness" subject. I just read many of the posts on the blogs you referred me to, and that was my take on what I did read.

    I asked you what your personal experiences were, which you glossed over completely. No matter, except that once again, I believe personal experience often outweighs book learning/ studies, etc.

    My high school was about a 50/50 split racially and I never once, in four years, saw a racially motivated fight. Even after a group of black kids (not from my school) jumped me and a friend while walking to the bus stop, punched me in the face and stole our wallets, I didn't harbor any biases against blacks. It wasn't until my adult years that I started to notice the violent trends that I mentioned before.

    As for my name. I take all people on an individual basis. In the beginning, I trust no one. No matter what color they are. Once in my circle, for lack of a better term, I consider them to be brothers that I would do just about anything (within reason) for.

    Peace out.

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  29. Brother of...
    My all white youth was filled with brawls, bad behavior (not mine), and all sorts of things we just discussed her being done by young black men/boys.

    I hope I'm not too late to the party but I've had tons of experiances this writer described.

    I lived in a part of Atlanta where white people are never seen. I had never heard the word "cracker" before, but as I rode a bike to get around there was a pack of kids following me at all times with a constant seranade of that word.

    some of the more amusing taunts were singing the theme to Casper the Friendly Ghost, or the kid who hurled the repeated word "dude". It usually began with kids just following till the bravest would shout "cracker" and they would all run away. as this would be repeated they would all gain courage and the chorus would swell.

    I always acknowledged people, including kids, I saw on the street, but never reacted to the taunts.
    These were kids trying to act out in a way they knew they shouldn't. Little black boys who have been taught and who experiance the powerlessness I do not feel, and as a representative or symbol of those who have power, of course I was a target.
    It was not my place to correct these kids.
    I was always to some extent an outsider being watched and judged. By staying posative when taunted by children I eventually won the respect and "protection" of the adults, who then corrected the kids.
    I did have a roomate who reacted differently. He went what I call the "yo" rout, trying to mimick the mannerisms of the kids. He tried to be "down".

    They never warmed up to him.

    When I got sick and tired of all this, I always had the option of just going to another neighborhood and escaping the sore thumb feeling I had.
    Imagine being black and not being able to ever escape this sort of singled out existance? This is in all respects a white country and as a result the only time I've really had to endure racial taunting was at the hands of a bunch of children.
    that is and has never been the case for black people.

    this should be an opportunity for learning and empathy, not ire.

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  30. I'm a black girl.

    Depending on how many of them were there, I would have said you said have told them off. The reason they didnt go away or stop was for that reason. If they were alone, they would not have done that.

    Doesn't really matter what color you are, no one has a right to disrespect you.

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  31. I think the fact that referenced you as 'sir' put you in a position to tell them off. As an elder, you were in a position to ask them 'where they lived, and who they were'. They would've most likely cussed you out and refused to give you any information, but the harassment would most likely cease, because they were testing you. They know that racial relations in America could most likely put you in fear of them.

    IA, no one has the right to disrespect you. But it's different coming from peers than kids younger than you. Perhaps there's a level of seniority that allows you to make sense of the "weird feelings".

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  32. That weird feeling is being annoyed at unfair attacks. Hell, dude was minding his own business then suddenly gets an earful from some idiots. It is unfair. And it is damn annoying and disturbing. Simple as that.

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  33. He did the right thing to me nothing is racist people just get touchy about the way u have put things, i think Jon did right i have had that sort of thing happen to me and i'm only 14 a young white girl from England. I am no where near racist i am quater Indian myself but alot of youth carry a weapon and enjoy teaing people who are on there own, i am justjust saying Black youths do so do white youths, its happens all round the world.I live in a area which has around 80% white 20% black and barely any children but one of my friends lives in a area with 90% balck 10% white and she sturggles to go out but her and her friends have many racial debates with the asians on her street. Please tell me if i sound racist. thanks Beth, :)

    ReplyDelete

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