Wednesday, February 4, 2009

laugh at deadpan comedians

Demetri Martin is a comedian who's white, but does he just happen to be white? Or is there something particularly white about his humor?

Here's a typical example of Martin's style:




Martin has a new program coming up on Comedy Central called "Important Things," and yesterday's Hartford Advocate provided an intriguingly race-oriented review of the show's first few episodes. Brianna Snyder's assessment of "Important Things" and of Martin's comedy in general is mostly critical, but I'm especially interested in her almost anthropological assessment of Martin, and his primary audience, as a certain kind of white people. Hipsters, to be exact.

Synder's review is entitled "Stuff White People Like," but the subtitle is more specific: "Demetri Martin is funny, if you're a white hipster male who loves Wes Anderson movies, the Moldy Peaches and T-shirts."

Snyder further describes Martin and his humor in the following ways. What is it that's "white," or maybe "common among white people," about all this?

Martin is boyish and handsome, with a shaggy bowl cut (those must be ironically OK now) and deadpan delivery that might be his "signature" now, or will be eventually. He manages to be likeable, despite not being uniquely funny. His comedy is derivative, blandly simplistic, generally unsuccessful in fulfilling its ambition, and very tame. . . .

Martin's ironic, indie, self-referential, smartass-white-boy-in-a-T-shirt gig has made him fairly successful in the comedy underground league, alongside guys like David Cross (who sort of just barely fits in that category anymore, but still manages to retain the association), Todd Barry, Eugene Mirman, Michael Showalter, Jon Benjamin and others. He's best known for his role as a correspondent on "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart," but if you remember him there, you've likely already noticed him elsewhere. (Fans of this genre of comedy are all over his cameo in an episode of "Flight of the Conchords.")

"Important Things" is an indie variety show of sorts; it has the grainy, diffused look of a Wes Anderson movie and I suspect its musical interludes (the ones that aren't performed by him) might be sung by that dude from the Moldy Peaches. Its comic tone echoes Mitch Hedberg (or, for earlier generations, Stephen [
sic] Wright).

I suspect that in addition to providing a white form of humor, Martin has a fan-base that's mostly white as well. If so, why? What about it makes it funnier to white people?

I'll take a tentative stab at isolating one element of Martin's humor that might be especially white: his deadpan delivery. Snyder compares Martin to a white comedian from awhile back who was especially deadpan, Steven Wright. Here's an example of his style:



As with Martin, when Wright delivers a punchline amidst his abstract meanderings, there's little or no indication in his face or body language that he's told a joke--which is of course what "deadpan" means. As a result, the audience has to pay more attention to the words themselves to catch the joke. Sometimes, the audience is slow to figure out that what it's just heard is a punchline (as with Martin's joke in the clip above about how oranges must have been named before carrots).

This element of Martin's style, his deadpan delivery, stands out to me because I tend to like it, and also because I sometimes do that too. In daily interactions, I sometimes say things to others in the hopes of making them laugh or smile, without at first laughing or smiling myself. This sometimes causes a delayed reaction, until the listener realizes that despite my deadpan expression and delivery, what I just said was supposed to be humorous. (I wish I could provide a good example, but these are spontaneous and ephemeral moments, and the humor is usually the "you had to be there" sort.)

Of course, some non-white comedians, and some non-white ordinary people, deliver deadpan humor too, and laugh it. Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all.

But then, it may be worth noting here how, when the idea of a "white race" was still a new idea, white people partially defined themselves in relation to supposed qualities in other races. Native Americans and Africans, for instance, were basically perceived by Europeans in bodily terms, and European "whites," especially white men, in more cerebral terms. All cultural groups have their own ways of restraining their bodies, but one reason whites thought they were superior was because they thought they had better control over their bodies, as well as a generally higher level of intelligence, than the supposedly oversexualized, less restrained, and less thoughtful darker races.

I hope my own predilection for deadpan, seemingly cerebral humor is not, in this sense, a racial inheritance. But at this point, in my continual effort to come to terms with common white tendencies in both myself and others, I think it might be.

What do you think? And do you see anything else in Demetri Martin's performance style that's particularly white?

There's one other white thing that might be worth saying here, or rather asking about, since I'm feeling speculative today. Brianna Snyder also writes in her review of Martin's show that when it airs, "I predict his fanbase will quadruple, he'll star in his own cutesy indie rom-com and he'll release no fewer than three full-length records of him, his guitar, his harmonica and his bells." She then writes, "The hipsters are taking over."

But I wonder about that last claim. Hipsters are indeed taking over in another, geographic sense, as they fill up inner-city areas, drive up rental rates, and thereby drive out other residents. But then, as I read the rest of Snyder's review, it registers a certain weariness with hipster humor (if that's what Martin and his ilk really represent). Isn't hipster humor, and white hipsterdom in general, getting kind of tired by now? Kind of played out?

If so, maybe one reason is that it's so nearly, purely white. Maybe we're entering a new racial era, one where racism certainly isn't over, because it's again taking on new forms, but also one where non-white people and cultural forms are more prominent than ever before. For Brianne Snyder, there's something about Martin, his new show, and his brand of entertainment in general, that's very white. And something rather tiresome too. Maybe those two qualities go together.

46 comments:

  1. maybe it's just SF, but I've definitely noticed hipsters in more shades than white. sure most of them are white, but I see some "yellow" and "black." but most of them, I think, did not grow up in SF and came from middle to upper class families.

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  2. Yeah, "nearly purely white," as I put it, might be overstated. I don't know what the percentage or tipping point should be to label a trend or movement (or whatever hipsterdom is) a "white" trend or movement, and it should be acknowledged that the percentage differs in different cities. But I don't think a movement or trend or group identity needs to be 100% white to identify it as, basically, a "white" thing.

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  3. i totally agree... i guess im just wondering if the non-white hipsters would be into that show. just like flight of the concords.

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  4. i'm not sure exactly what about dimitri marks him as a hipster. (is his humor ironic?) i'm not sure i'm convinced he is one, or that it matters. but he does totally remind me of Mitch Hedberg, (rest in peace.)

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  5. Hey Macon,
    I've been reading and enjoying your blog for a while now. I can't comment on whether this comedian is specifically geared to a white audience or not but I will comment on Flight of the Conchords. I really love that show. it's incredible funny and I don't find a lot of things funny. Anyway, I'm neither white nor a male so, go figure.

    I will say that a lot of white comedians who are not funny in their stand up routines are usually funny in a sitcom or get their own sitcom, e.g., Seinfeld, Roseanne, Ellen, Jay Leno (WTF), Garry Shandling (the shows were good but not the standup). It seems that they are allowed to try and fail a lot more often than not. Now most of the shows did turn out to be funny but what is it in their stand up routine that a producer can recognize talent and hilarity in something extremely banal?

    Back on topic, while this guy's routine was cute, I wasn't blown away or laughing my ass off but it would seem that if he gets a show, it will be huge.

    It does make me wonder.

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  6. I'm old enough to remember Stephen Wright, and when I was a kid I loved him, and Emo Phillips, too. Demetri Martin is not as good as either of them; he's not got the ability to go from A to G like Wright did. Maybe it is a "smart" thing with certain white comedians. Certainly not all of them are making cleverness their trademark, or I'd have no idea who Dane Cook is.

    But Demetri Martin, Dane Cook and even Mitch Hedburg when he was alive, are in their ways physically attractive in the Eurocentric sense. Both the "Flight" guys are handsome too. It's like what happened to pop music after MTV, you can do what you like, but you had better be damn pretty while you're doing it. Zach Galifianakis is also a hipster comedian, but he's not getting his own show, he's a sidekick on other people's shows. He's a squat little Greek guy and not pretty. Stephen Wright wouldn't make it past open mic night today. Or maybe he'd get a radio show where no one could see him.

    There are two hipster POC comedians I know of: Baron Vaughn (who is African-American) and Aziz Ansari (who is Indian-American) from Human Giant. I've seen both of them perform stand-up. They're both young, funny, and handsome, and their audiences are mainly white. There have been shows I've seen them where I'm the only person of any color at all in the audience. They will touch on racial humor for a few moments, as if to acknowledge that they're not white, but they move away from it quickly and are onto other subjects, which for me, frankly, is refreshing.

    Not that I don't find Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle funny, but I like that these young guys are doing something that isn't the same tired "We're like this and white people are like that" trope. Remember that poetry slam gag on Chappelle, with Dave in a dashiki and hitting a drum? I think he was commenting on how a lot of us are sick of that trope.

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  7. I'm probably dating myself here but I miss Foster Brooks, Don Rickles, Red Skelton, Rodney Dangerfield and even Bob Hope. Those WHITE guys were funny. Gomer Pyle was NOT funny. And can someone please tell me what a hipster is?

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  8. Yes Al, that is going back a ways. I wonder what was particularly white, and/or white male, about those guys?

    Wikipedia has a pretty good, basic explanation of today's hipsters.

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  9. I hope my own predilection for deadpan, seemingly cerebral humor is not, in this sense, a racial inheritance. But at this point, in my continual effort to come to terms with common white tendencies in both myself and others, I think it might be.

    Wow, now you claim that only white people have the mental capacity for deadpanning and cerebral humour.

    You are such an ass, Macon.

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  10. So according to wiki, I am a hipster.
    I am middle class

    I like "alternative" music and indie rock (some of it, a lot of it seems to be repetitive young white male acoustic guitar player)

    I like independent film (but I don't eschew big budget films. I like movies, period)

    I think thrift stores are great. Although I can almost never find anything to fit me there.

    I do try to eat organic or locally grown, cause I'm trying to not eat so much processed stuff.

    I do listen to public radio.

    The whole "ironic attitude" thing,however, is not me.

    And I do like Demetri Martin (but not the Concord guys and definitely not Dane Cook). My relationship to comedy and comedians is complicated b/c its too easy for ppl to be sexist/racist in some of their stand ups.

    You're right though about Martin's act, however.

    Like Moviegirl, I wasn't blown away. Kathy Griffin & Wanda Sykes are two of my favorite current comedians

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  11. R, I think it's less that I'm an ass and more that you're a bad reader. Did you miss this part of the post?

    Of course, some non-white comedians, and some non-white ordinary people, deliver deadpan humor too, and laugh it. Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all.

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  12. Macon, the way I break down what you wrote is this:
    Whites=Intellectual=DeadpanHumor=What Macon D inherited.And saying R can't read is just more of your superiority complex, in other words, white male privilege. Instead of insults as a defense, maybe you should go back and read what you wrote and see how another person might interpret what you wrote.

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  13. Kathy, I did what you suggested, and it seems to me that the only way to interpret the post in the way that you and R have here is to misread it.

    How, for instance, does the part of the post that I just quoted to R fit into your equivalences formula?

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  14. I am a WOC and not a hipster and I enjoy Dimitri and Conchord, and loved (and wanted to be) Steven Wright growing up.

    IMO stand-up and sketch shows are pretty played, and I think it's because they consist of this small fraternity (so few women, truly) and, yes, they're white, and they all work together all the time, so they start to sound like a Teddy Riley-produced song: maybe a different voice, but the same tracks.

    Most of what we see on tv in comedy is white, but I'll take Martin over Tim & Eric on Cartoon Network any day of the week.

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  15. First, Macon I think Kathy and restructure are just a couple of trolls. I usually don't like to call people trolls, but after finding out that there are indeed people who take joy in "trolling," it's not so bad.

    Kathy and R - read the entire post, familiarize yourself with the blog, and stop being such dipsticks. Macon wasn't saying that only white people "understand" cerebral humor, he's just wondering if white people are the only ones who find it funny.

    Me? I'm a black woman, and I think Dimitri is funny. But, I'm not sure why. I guess I just like it when a white guys says all the stuff I want to say. Having been the only raisin in the pie on more the a few occasions even in college, there're just somethings the white people will only hear from other white people. Dimitri is one of those white people who can actually speak to issues if he decided cause other white people find him so unintimidating.

    But anyway, my brother and I both enjoy the humor. I don't think we're "hippies," just that we grew up with a mother who taught us that only small-minded people talk about other people and so most of our daily conversation involved thought. Also, we like Chris Rock's humor, too.

    And too, I've gotten so good at controlling my facial-muscles, I can deliver a crack at someone without them responding for at least 30 secs or so. It's great.

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  16. Macon said: "I wonder what was particularly white, and/or white male, about those guys?"

    I'm not sure, perhaps it was a 60's-70's thing, but they weren't Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor, Redd Foxx, Flip Wilson, Freddie Prinze, Carol Burnette, Lily Tomlin and Joan Rivers. They were just funny "white" guys... unlike Dean Martin and Johnny Carson. :-)

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  17. hmm i really appreciate this blog and what you have to say. i think you are critiquing the critic more than anything else.

    i am wondering what you think about jewish comedians cuz they are all over the place and all i know are pretty funny.

    comedy and racism is a good topic. there is much to be said!

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  18. Thanks for offering your interpretation of the post, no1kstate. Just to further clarify, I would slightly modify this part of what you wrote:

    Macon wasn't saying that only white people "understand" cerebral humor, he's just wondering if white people are the only ones who find it funny.

    As I wrote above, I know that some non-white people also find it funny, as you pointed out about yourself and your brother. I'm just wondering if white people tend to find it funny (and tend to do it more, and tend to make up the vast majority of the audience for it) for reasons related to a historical, socially constructed (and not biological) inheritance of white supremacist ideology. (Not to get technical about it, but I'm learning that it's best to spell out some things as precisely as I can.) Your description of delivering a crack without cracking a smile is great--that's pretty much what I do too.

    Katy, there is a course a lot to say about Jewish comedians, but given my blog's topic, I'm more interested in their relation to, or maybe negotiation of, American whiteness. I think it was Michael Rogin who pointed out the paradoxical way that early Jewish American entertainers became more "white" by putting on blackface. By doing so, they joined a very white form of entertainment that excluded actual African Americans, and obscured their own (at the time) non-whiteness. As for today's Jewish comics, I don't know what to say. Adam Sandler's "Hanukkah Song" is interesting, for the way it sort of "outs" Jewish people; if that's what it's doing, is he outing Jewish people who are "passing for white"? I'm not sure, because at this point in America, Jewish people of Ashkenazi origin are widely considered white, except by extreme white supremacists. More generally, I would say that few Americans realize the Jewish influence and origins of much "American" humor.

    Do you have any thoughts on Jewish comedians?

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  19. Hey when you do a article on comics ,first you should do some research.Most comics borrowed from Black Comedians. There's really no "new" material out there.Most people talk about the bawdiness of Lenny Bruce when Rudy Ray Moore did it before him.Most of your "Borscht Belt" comics know about "Dolomite". Barry Sobell is Jewish but he does a "Black " act.Funny is funny. If you can be funny,you are funny.In the 80's comics sold out stadiums, now all the good ones either do movies or are too rich to do stand up.

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  20. Thanks, kid. This post is about deadpan comedy. Are you saying there's a black tradition of deadpan comedy? If so, who are the most noteworthy deadpan black comedians that these deadpan white comedians are borrowing from?

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  21. Eh, Macon saying
    If so, who are the most noteworthy deadpan black comedians that these deadpan white comedians are borrowing from?
    Is not such a good look, when you're the author of the blog and you're the one who's trying to do the exploration.

    Not to say that you haven't done the research, but it makes it look like you're asking him to do it for you.

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  22. Thanks for the tip, Roxie.

    I hope others here are willing to explore too, but I can see how asking them to might be too much to ask. I'm asking kid because, although so much "white culture" clearly does draw from black cultural forms, I've never heard of such a black tradition of deadpan comedy that these comedians would be borrowing from. I also wouldn't know where to do such research. Since it seems that kid has done some research on comedy and race, I thought he or she might have an answer.

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  23. From wayyy up at the beginning of the comments,

    "I don't think a movement or trend or group identity needs to be 100% white to identify it as, basically, a 'white' thing."

    I usually think about how disproportionate an audience is compared to a total population. E.g., every time I've been to an indie rock show the crowd is more white than a random sample of local people would be. I remember a hipster bingo card from 2003 that joked about the lone Asian hipsters at shows.

    I think that might be all the critic is putting together, that hipster/indie culture is whiter than average culture, and Demetri has lots of hipster cues. Ironic bowlcut, fitted t-shirt, apathetic tone, sincerity wrapped in ironic corniness, amateur infographics...

    And it is ubiquitous, and people are bored with it, but scenester style has consumed criticism before. I'm skeptical that this signals the demise of hipster culture. Complaining about hipsters is the ultimate hipster activity. It's been indestructable because it's about competition and co-opting everything. Competing for obscure lifestyle knowledge, when the internet gives everyone equal access to it. It's perfect right? An infinite arms race. Pretending to be outsiders in order to fit in, distracted from building a thorough political analysis.

    So I think that more than a deadpan delivery, the hipster cue that attracts all those white people might be a lack of political passion. Deadpan as performed apathy.

    And yeah, of course, that can appeal to anyone. But it does seem to be disproportionately attractive for white people.

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  24. ooh i like what sarah said.

    and no, i kno nothing about jewish comedy/comedians. but im keeping my eyes peeled and brain ticking.

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  25. Let me explain the history.Early American theaters mostly did comic plays.A American composer seen a black kid singing "Jump Jim Crow" and the minstrel show was born. One day a vaudevillian named Bert Williams did a "black face" routine.He was the highest paid comedian at the time.Eddie Cantor and George Burns studied under him.One day in a bar he was refused service unless he could pay $100 for a drink. He asked for five.He made more money than the President."Pigmeat" Markham ,Eddie "Rochester" Anderson,Redd Foxx ,were vaudevillians. Their humor was blue. Sophie Tucker did blue material too.So it was mostly Black and Jewish comics that did this. WASP comics were nonexistent.Today you do have "Black" comics that do observational material.Dave Chappelle broke the Guinness book of world record twice doing six hour concerts.You just didn't know about it because you didn't hear about it.Another thing Eddie "Rochester" Anderson WROTE, for Jack Benny.We were there but like Ralph Ellison said we were invisible.

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  26. Thank you for providing some of the results of your research, kid, there's a lot to chew on there. I have no doubt that a lot of white humor is based on and steals from the work of black comedians. It doesn't follow, though, that all white comedians owe all that they do to black predecessors, nor that white audiences are necessarily attracted to every seemingly white kind of comedy because there's something in it that appeals to them that's actually black.

    There's much to be said and acknowledged about white obliteration of black foundations and contributions, but the original post is about a particular strain of comedy--observational, yes, but also deadpan, and ironic, and abstract random--that's "white" in terms of the overwhelming predominance of the white people doing it, and paying to watch others do it. There's no doubt that black influences on various forms of American comedy are huge, and that it's unacknowledged, but if it's in this strain of white comedy, I'm still not seeing it. So what I'm hypothesizing is that the restrained, deadpan (and maybe apathetic) element might be a historical hangover or inheritance from the history of white bodily training.

    Thanks for your comment Sarah, a lot to chew on there too. You wrote,

    I think that might be all the critic is putting together, that hipster/indie culture is whiter than average culture, and Demetri has lots of hipster cues. Ironic bowlcut, fitted t-shirt, apathetic tone, sincerity wrapped in ironic corniness, amateur infographics...

    Sounds about right. I'm wondering if there's any more to be said about the whiteness there, whether an understanding of it can be broadened by tying it to historical continuities. "Deadpan as performed apathy" is dead on. Whiteness has long been an elitist divide-and-conquer tool, and potentially powerful groups that have been atomized into individualistic and apathetic consumers, who ironically cherish originality and individualism, seems symptomatic of another historical and racialized continuity.

    Thanks for the link to the ironic hipster protest. Depressing, but clarifying.

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  27. Good points Macon. This reminds me of the old minstrel days, when certain forms of performance were coded white and others black. White performers had to use blackface to perform what was considered black music and dance, usually more physical and demonstrative. The flipside to this practice was the fact that it limited what was acceptably white, forcing white performers who didn't want to be race players out of entire genres. There's a double-edged sword to establishing these kinds of binaries.

    As for hipsterdom and its whiteness, I know a lot of non-white hipsters. In NYC there's a large population of homegrown POC hipsters. It makes it easier to ridicule hipsterdom though, when it's typified as a white thing. White hipsters in Williamsburg are vilified as archetypal upper-middle class gentrifiers, but we ignore the black upper-middle class gentrifiers of neighborhoods like Fort Greene. Erykah Badu keeps house there, to give you a sense of the type of black hipsterdom I'm referring to. Nonetheless the same effect of raising rent prices pushes poorer residents out of neighborhoods. Removing the racial component makes the story much less sexy, but nonetheless exposes the more salient class component. It's harder to criticize because, well, Badu, Mos Def, and Saul Williams are cool as hell. But if you go to Fort Greene today, you'll notice all those familiar hipster fashions with afrocentric splashes. In the end, what's the difference? Hard stuff to grapple with.

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  28. Macon D,

    The condensed version of what you were saying is:

    "Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all. [...] But at this point, in my continual effort to come to terms with common white tendencies in both myself and others, I think it might be."

    You even go as far as to say that deadpanning is a "racial inheritance", which may be interpreted as a statement about hereditary influence. (Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)

    My personal humour is characteristically deadpan and sarcastic, and deadpanning sarcasm usually comes across as well as sarcasm on the internet without sarcasm tags. People have told me that I need to inflect my voice or change my facial expression so that they know I am being sarcastic, but I am the type of person who thinks irony is self-evident.

    I think your problem, Macon D, which extends beyond this particular post, is that you do not recognize enough that people of colour do not have complete control over how they are perceived in the media, and do not collectively decide which people of colour become famous. Most deadpan comedians are white, but this does not mean that there are no deadpan comedians of colour. There could be racial discrimination, deadpan comedians of colour may not be perceived as funny, deadpan comedians of colour may not be perceived as deadpanning, etc.

    I know people of colour who deadpan in real life, but I don't know that many POC comedians. POC in the media--and even on the internet--do not reflect the full diversity of POC.

    no1skate,

    Me? I'm a black woman, and I think Dimitri is funny. But, I'm not sure why. I guess I just like it when a white guys says all the stuff I want to say. Having been the only raisin in the pie on more the a few occasions even in college, there're just somethings the white people will only hear from other white people.

    I think you have really low standards for yourself if you think that white people saying the same thing you have said and getting credit for it is a positive thing.

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  29. Restructure, you wrote,

    "You even go as far as to say that deadpanning is a "racial inheritance", which may be interpreted as a statement about hereditary influence. (Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)"

    If you don't think he would think that literally, then why upthread did you say he's "such an ass"? The only way Macon's post could be read the way you originally misinterpreted it is to do just that, misinterpret it. You wrote that he claimed "that only white people have the mental capacity for deadpanning and cerebral humour," but now you're trying to take that back? By saying "of course" he wouldn't say that? Get real! (And the post doesn't say it "is" a racial inheritance, it says it might be, and if so in a historical sense, not a biological one.)

    Macon is not an ass for writing something that could be misinterpreted by someone because their not reading carefully. You're an ass for not fessing up to your own careless, and wrong, reading of the post.

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  30. @restructure!

    You totally missed my point and misunderstood what I said. I never said I feel special when someone gets credit from something I've done.

    What I tried to say is that I think uncouth things about white people all the time. For example, I think most collegiate white girls are corny. I think it's funny when white people say about themselves something I've been thinking. Just like I think Chris Rock is funny when he says something I've been think.

    The other point I was making is that there are some things white people will only hear from other white people, like how racist and insensitive their supposed mockery of bigots can be. In cases like that when the message of given in a joke, not only do I think it's funny, I'm glad it was said. I'm glad anytime something is said to combat racism. But feeling special because someone is taking credit for something I did? Yeah. I would have to have low self-esteem.

    But since I don't, perhaps you should be clear about what you're reading before you make critical judgements like that.

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  31. Anonymous,

    If you don't think he would think that literally, then why upthread did you say he's "such an ass"? The only way Macon's post could be read the way you originally misinterpreted it is to do just that, misinterpret it. You wrote that he claimed "that only white people have the mental capacity for deadpanning and cerebral humour," but now you're trying to take that back? By saying "of course" he wouldn't say that? Get real! (And the post doesn't say it "is" a racial inheritance, it says it might be, and if so in a historical sense, not a biological one.)

    What I meant was that even if he would not think that explicitly or literally, there's a high chance that he thought that implicitly or indirectly, due to not thinking through the implications. For example, Macon D says that white people don't dance well, which is a meaningful comment only if the "white" part is relevant, meaning that white people don't dance as well as non-white people, and that non-white (read: black) people dance well. However, if you asked Macon D, "Would you say that black people dance well?", he would probably say "no", because it sounds racist, and he would not explicitly think "black people dance well". (Perhaps "literally" is not quite the right word. "Explicitly" is probably more accurate.)

    no1kstate,

    Personally, I am very rarely in the company of bigots, so most of the racism I encounter is the "subtle" kind involving white liberals/leftists. For me, white people taking credit for something that was originally done or said by a non-white person is far more common than bigots spewing racist bigotry. When white people get credit for saying something antiracist while being white, to me, it is just another display of racism. In some ways, it is even more maddening because they are congratulating themselves for being "not racist" and progressive. The irony is painful, because they don't see it (while they consider themselves the connoisseurs of irony, of course).

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  32. Restructure, to say that a person implicitly thinks something doesn't make any sense to me.

    Actually, I did "think through the implications" of this post regarding the supposed mental capacities of various races, which is one reason why I wrote the part that you insist on ignoring: "Of course, some non-white comedians, and some non-white ordinary people, deliver deadpan humor too, and laugh it. Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all." Your myopic search for racism on my part also misses a larger topic in the post--whether a white taste for deadpan comedy is related to a white history of bodily restraint. It's not a claim, implicit or explicit, about mental capacity. Also, wondering if deadpan comedy might be common among whites because of a history of white self-definition in relation to the supposed qualities of other races does not disallow that many non-whites might have a taste for it too, for whatever reasons.

    As for dancing white people, my general point in the posts I used to write about white people who do or don't dance was not that they don't dance as well as black people do (and why does non-white have to equal "black"?). It was basically conjecture, or perhaps a hypothesis, that many don't dance often, or as often as they would otherwise, because the history of American whiteness has entailed disciplined, constrained white bodies. To say that is not to say, or even necessarily imply, that non-white people don't have their own ways of restraining their bodies, nor that they do or don't dance any more or less than white people do. So again, saying that something is common among white people for particular reasons need not also mean that isn't also common among other people; it could well be. And if so, or if not, that may be a result of different historical (and contemporary) influences.

    It's true that I have been raised and trained to be white in a society that continues to be white supremacist, so like all white people, I certainly do bear instilled racist inclinations. But I disagree with your claims that I'm enacting such inclinations in these instances under discussion.

    And by the way, I'm not going to approve any comments by you that dredge up posts and comments I've written in the past. It's too tedious to address what you write when you do that, and it's also usually off the topic of the post at hand.

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  33. @restructure!

    I get your point, but you're still missing mine.

    I've grown up with bigots, subtle racism from leftist, and intellectual arguments by biggests. Just like I purposely started egged an argument between my brother and his wife because one of them, I can't remember which, had gotten on my nerve and I thought it'd be funny (It was!); I personally think it's funny when a white person takes a dig a whiteness. Sorry. Get over it.

    And I do give white people credit when they do/say something anti-racist. It gives me credibility for touching them up when they do do/say something racist.

    And let me repeat - I think it's funny when a white person says something I've thought myself just like I think it's funny when Chris Rock or any other black comedian(ne) says something I've thought myself. It's funny to hear it out loud from another person.

    For the love of all that's good and holy, restructure, could you please read entire comments and posts before you say something about it! How old are you? If you're going to do anti-racicst blogging/commenting/work, you need to either develop your reading comprehension skills or learn to read every word of a post before you let your emotions lead you to wrong assumptions.

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  34. Macon D,

    Restructure, to say that a person implicitly thinks something doesn't make any sense to me.

    Here is an example. Somebody I know claims that anything dark-coloured looks ugly. It is a fact of the world that there are dark-skinned people. Ergo, she thinks that dark-skinned people look ugly. However, if you ask her, "Do you think dark-skinned people look ugly?", she'll say "no" or avoid answering the question. She doesn't explicitly think that dark-skinned people are ugly, because if such a thought started to come up, she might worry that she was racist and then think of other, happier things. However, her explicit thought + facts about the world + logical implications = implicit thoughts about the world.

    I am not "ignoring" your disclaimer. I just think that it is an insincere disclaimer, because it contradicts the whole theme of your post, including the title. You made the disclaimer, and then followed with a "But then" which "debunked" the disclaimer.

    I vehemently disagree with you "restrain themselves" post and I think it's racist, so it makes sense that I would disagree with this post, the dancing post, and all other posts of yours which build upon your "restrain themselves" idea.

    Your myopic search for racism on my part

    This is so tired and absurd. Are you so myopic as to not be aware that the allegation, "you are just looking for racism" is so typically white?

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  35. I'm well aware of how common that allegation is, Restructure. That doesn't mean it's never true.

    Regarding white American bodily restraint, have you read Ronald Takaki's Iron Cages? It's a good starting point on some elements of American racial formation, especially white American identity, that you seem to know nothing about. You should read it, and then come back and tell me if you still think that identifying and examining a particularly "white American" mode of bodily restraint is racist.

    As for the rest of your last comment, I'm not a big fan of repeating myself, especially when the other side's primary characteristic is obstinacy.

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  36. no1kstate,

    I understand that things you find funny are things you find funny, whether it comes from you or someone else (of any race). However, there is an additional racial subtext that bothers me. For example, this quote from you gives me pause:

    And I do give white people credit when they do/say something anti-racist. It gives me credibility for touching them up when they do do/say something racist.

    The "credibility" you are referring to here is "credibility in the eyes of whites". Objectively speaking, the validity of your opinion should not depend on what white people think. Yes, white people take people of colour more seriously when they give cookies for anti-racism in proportion to criticizing white people for racism. (This is why I'm not taken that seriously on this blog, because I rarely give cookies and I am critical 99% of the time.) However, it's not right.

    I am not some kind of inherently hard-ass person. I used to do the same as you and give cookies to white liberals, because I wanted to be taken seriously by white people and be accepted as having sensible views. However, I found that when you keep compromising, the centrist or accepted view keeps slowly creeping to the right. Compromising might hurt in the long run, because if you repeat something enough times, it becomes entrenched and accepted as normal. When you don't speak out, they'll think that everything is fine. White people usually aren't aware that people of colour are restraining themselves, because there is a stereotype that people of colour are unrestrained, spontaneous, and already crying racism at every opportunity.

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  37. @restructure!

    No. It gives me credibility with that individual.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not one to give white people collectively much credit for things like electing Pres Obama. The majority of white people voted for McCain, and the rest voted for the only real option. You don't get a cookie for voting for the person who's best qualified BY FAR!

    But from one individual to another, I give everybody credit when they get something right. Black, white. Young, old.

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  38. Hi Macon,
    I am confused by this post, are you saying that whiteness means more cerebral and more physically restrained in comparison to non-white identity, or are you saying that the idea of whiteness as more cerebral and more restrained is something that you have been taught and absorbed in a culture of white supremacy? I think that is an important distinction, because the basis of your premise, of white identity formation seems flawed in that white identity denies the various ethnic and class identities that comprise whiteness, actually promoting the perpetuation of white superiority and the application of double standards for the same or similar behavior.
    It seems to me that this post is another perpetuation of the idea that whiteness has no culture because it is considered to be the norm. I am particularly interested in the idea that you promoted here that white people don't dance, or dance less or are more physically restrained. Thanks.

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  39. are you saying that whiteness means more cerebral and more physically restrained in comparison to non-white identity, or are you saying that the idea of whiteness as more cerebral and more restrained is something that you have been taught and absorbed in a culture of white supremacy?

    The latter, mostly--something that I and other whites have been taught and have absorbed (in ways no doubt compounded and made variable by socioeconomic status, and other influences)in a culture with an ongoing history of white supremacy. Your first part, the former, seems to have happened much more strongly historically than it does now. And "means" in your sentence would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be."

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  40. Macon D,

    And "means" in your sentence would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be."

    This is one of the main systematic problems with your blog. I criticized this on my blog, but I guess if I don't name you specifically, you don't perceive it as a criticism of your blog.

    Now that I re-read my old blog post, it isn't as clear as I had originally thought. Another way of thinking of it is that in your mind, "meaning" is determined by "what white people think". Again, your blog portrays what white people think as what is universally true.

    For example, you say that "means" would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be." However, what you are saying implicitly is that "means" means "was figured as by whites" or "was assumed to be by whites." You are saying that universal meaning is meaning according to whites, and the perspectives of people of colour (e.g. that we are constantly restraining ourselves because we feel like we are being scrutinized by whites) don't contribute to meaning.

    This problem also appears in Sociological Images » RACE, CLASS, AND GENDER IN TV DINNERS (WHAT ELSE!), where she says, "the working-class masculinity is implicitly white." In her worldview, "meaning" is "meaning according to whites."

    I commented on that post, saying, "Working-class masculinity is NOT implicitly white; white people THINK implicitly that working class males are white."

    Do you see the distinction? Do you see how the distinction is important?

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  41. Oh good lord, Restructure, what a load of self important, self justifying and tedious crap. You just don't want to admit that you made a mistake upthread, do you? That's a rhetorical question, just like your know-it-all ones clearly are. It's obvious as I read this blog that Macon's is trying to deconstruct what white people think. He's often blogging against white control of meaning (sorry if that's speaking too much for you Macon), not repeating it. He continually takes other points of view into account and does not assume that white perspective is universal. To claim that he sees white thinking as universal is ridiculous to any fairminded reader of this blog. Of course that "means" white in that sentence you qouted. But of course also, that doesn't automatically mean non-white perspectives weren't there too and that they were different! Does that have to be spelled out for you? Wait, I guess so, considering the kind of mistake you made upthread.

    (Ugh, getting tedious. Anywho, Sorry for feeding trolls, but this just got too ridick!)

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  42. "(Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)""
    The way I intrepret R's statement is that Macon D would not want to be perceived (literaly) as trying to NOT be a racist, as opposed to be trying to be an "anti-racist". What I think is that as white people try to unravel themselves and the racist thoughts, feelings, and ideas they have been taught and absorbed, the struggle between not wanting to be racist or sounding racist, and the wanting to learn how to be racist is an ungoing struggle, yet, Macon D refuses to own the statement that he makes about "inheriting" cerebral deadpan comedy, in addition, Macon D cites a book referring to the white identity development as one of physical retraint. That is confusing to me, maybe Macon D, you could explain this more?

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  43. "wanting to learn how to be racist is an ungoing struggle" this should have read, wanting to learn how to be an "anti-racist"

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  44. I understood you Kathy. We have to allow people the freedom to find their way. Especially if what they're asking/saying isn't racist, just perceived to be so by people who, if I may, are seemingly determined to show Macon in a bad light.

    For example, we read the whole "inheritance" thing, I didn't take it to mean actual DNA, but more of a cultural/heritage inheritance. You know?

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  45. kathy, I explain a good deal of what I got from Takaki's book in this post (if you have comments about that post, please make them there). His title, Iron Cages, encapsulates with an apt metaphor the particularly white American restraint that I've been talking about.

    I think no1kstate summarizes the whole inheritance thing well. In the original post, a "racial inheritance" is wondered about right after a review of history, history that results in a sort of cultural inheritance, and history of the sort that's expanded upon in the other post that I'm linking to for Kathy.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I am a latino stand up comic from la and my comedy is inspired by comics like demitri martin mitch hedberg and steven wright one liners . and when i do the latino crowds they kind of look at me like they dont understand wut the hell im tryng to do and it takes them at least 5 minutes to kind of get into the grove of wut im tryng to do because most people are really closed minded and dont really know that theres more to comedy then just dane cooks and georg lopez
    you can google my name Martin Rizo

    ReplyDelete

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