Tuesday, November 3, 2009

refuse to see racism when non-white people point it out

Hi,

My name is Simone and I just found your blog a few days ago. I wanted to say that I really like the way you write and the way you think. it's nice to find people out there who don't seem to be walking around this world with blinders on. I'm a young black woman and I find that even I have a lot to learn from your blog.

I would like to ask your advice on a situation because as a black person with mainly white friends, i sometimes don't know whether I am overreacting or if they just aren't reacting enough.

This Halloween, i saw a man in blackface wearing a noose as his costume. I was more baffled than angry and I told my best friend (who is white) about it. She also reacted like "wow! what the hell?" and then her boyfriend came over and she said "hey tell him what you told me".

Just by knowing him, I suspected that he would think that there was nothing wrong with the costume of a 'man being lynched' so I was reluctant to tell him, but after some prodding, i did. He laughed and said "that's hilarious"! 

I shook my head and was going to leave it at that, but then my friend said "no it isn't! that's a terrible costume!"

Her boyfriend then turned on me and said, "i bet if it was a black guy in the same costume, you'd laugh". I told him that he didn't know me very well at all and that I was against the idea of the costume, no matter what race the wearer was. He kept arguing with me and insisting that I was lying, so eventually I left. I now feel uncomfortable ever being around him and I don't like the way Kate stood there while he attacked me (we were friends before she started dating him, but recently she's been changing a lot esp. where he is concerned). 

I don't know if I should say something to him or her, or if i should just avoid them both. what would you do?

Thanks in advance for your help on this, I'd really like to get an outside perspective.

Simone


I asked Simone if I could post her message here for the readers of this blog, in the hopes of eliciting your advice. She said yes, and then I wrote the message below for her.

What advice would you give Simone about this situation?

If you encountered any Halloween racism, did you say or do anything about it?



Simone,

After thinking more about what happened to you (and it did happen TO you), I think it was horrible. I did a Halloween post to try to ward white folks away from that kind of ish, and what you were confronted with was even worse than the examples that I wrote about. What you witnessed was a grotesque and hurtful offense, no matter what that person may have meant by it, and no matter what others around you thought of it. Both lynching and blackface are racist white activities with a long past, and a heavy, heavy history of connotations and meanings. To combine them like that, and especially to do it around anyone black, is almost like a kind of terrorism. I think at the very least, it's a total disregarding of your feelings, and your perspective. It's not for me to say how you should have felt, or whether you "overreacted," but I imagine it did put a big dent in your evening.

For your two friends to disregard your reaction like that is, in my opinion, just as bad as the costume itself. As for the boyfriend's claim that you wouldn't be offended if a black person did that -- first of all, how the hell does he know what you would think and feel about anything of that sort? That's an example of a common white questioning of a black person's perspective, AND authority -- I'm still trying to understand why us white folks do that. We usually just don't know how patronizing and arrogant we can be when we're questioning the feelings and opinions of non-white people in racist situations. It's like we think we know more about their lived, informed experience than they do! Which is of course deeply arrogant, hurtful, and more -- and yet, we just don't see ourselves doing that somehow.

So, what would I do, you asked, with so-called friends like that? I guess it depends on how much they really are your friends -- how important they are to you. If they are important and close to you, then yeah, it seems worthwhile to request a follow-up conversation about this. A real sit-down, and not when other distracting things are going on. But, also a conversation in which you can insist on respect for your position -- your own, different feelings and opinions about what happened. If they can't do all of that, and if they can't respect your desire to set this episode straight, and respectfully listen and LEARN from what you have to say, well, who needs "friends" like that?

But if they're not all that important to you, or if you're sure they're just going to continue disregarding your perspective, then it doesn't sound worth your while to me. Some white people, as I said, just can't see how stuck they are in their white training, which includes a disregard for different perspectives on racial issues. And even though you sometimes have to deal with that, it's certainly not your job to confront them about that.

As for HOW to approach your friends, if you decide to, I don't think I can say all that much, since I don't know them, and I don't know you. Calling them "racists" probably won't help (though it sounds like you wouldn't do that), but pointing out that what they did was "racist" might help -- Jay Smooth has some good advice on how to do that. Also, I just saw this article on that today; maybe it will help:

"How to Inform a Friend Their Halloween Costume Is Racist"

Best of luck deciding what to do, and then doing it. I'm glad to provide the outside perspective you asked for, but I'm really no expert in such things; please take my thoughts with a proverbial grain of salt. And do let me know please how it goes, if you have time,

macon

38 comments:

  1. It's interesting you post this today, particularly in light of this little gem that's cropped up on some of the Asian-American blogs:
    Deadly Viper Christian Book Overdoses on Kung-Fu Imagery (Angry Asian Man)

    Response from one of the authors of Deadly Viper (ProfRah)

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  2. I am a white male, 22 years old, and a college student. I have to say, that is completely appalling, both the costume and the fact that your "friend" did not stand up and say anything. First, I don't know how that could be funny; as a white person I believe lynching is something to be really and truly ashamed of. It seems like all of the white people in this incident did not want to take any responsibility for the past, and the fact that because we are white means it is part of OUR history, and we have to take responsibility for OUR history. I question whether confronting your friend will help, because if she cannot see how ridiculously offensive this is then she very well might not see how racist she was being by not doing anything. This makes me think of a quote from Haile Selasse, "Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph." I hope this helps a little bit, and am very sorry that this happened to you.

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  3. I am a woman of mixed racial descent, including black, and while I have always had white friends (in fact, mostly white friends -- especially in high school and college), I have realized in the last few years that it becomes nearly impossible for me to maintain friendships with white people who are not actively anti-racist. It is not enough for them to just be nice people or to generally not be racist. The people who have consistently disappointed me in that area, by questioning instead of supporting my claims of racism, for instance, have lost my friendship. If my white friends truly see me as both an equal and a friend, they will be personally invested in my equality.

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  4. Simone, I am so sorry this happened to you. I am also a black woman with many white friends but fortunately, no one has come at me with this level of ig'nance (doesn't deserve proper spelling). In NO WAY did you overreact. Now if you had gone up to the dude with the costume, slapped him upside the head, called him a fool and then cursed out your friend's boyfriend for his response... well I'd still think you were justified but that might have been a bit over the top :-). Seriously though, I think Macon gave good advice, if the friend is worth it, talk to her about it, though I'd skip the boyfriend b/c he sounds immature and rude and not worth wasting your breath on, especially since he told you what you thought (arrogant pissant). Maybe you could just tell your friend, you appreciated the fact that she recognized how offensive the costume was but you were a little hurt that she just stood there while her bf reprimanded you for your opinion doubted your honesty. If she is a good friend hopefully she will understand. I doubt she'll dump him for that (though if he usually behaves like such a bully she will hopefully see the writing on the wall). I would also advise you that if your friend is really a friend and you want to maintain the friendship, you shouldn't necessarily say that you don't like him but to the extent possible, avoid his company (no need to subject yourself to an unpleasant person), and when you have to interact with him, be civil but aloof and avoid conversation. It probably wouldn't help your friendship to tell your friend that you dislike him (I'm sure she'll figure that out) or to say too much if/when she says bad things about him until or unless she is PERMANENTLY broken up with him b/c if you say bad things about him, she'll probably hold it against you if she stays with him or breaks up and gets back together with him. HOwever, if she really isn't a good friend and generally leaves you hanging out to dry, I'd say kick 'em both to the curb and get on with life. I have recently learned that life is too short to waste on trifiling people in general especially if they are going to say or tolerate racist ish. HOpe that helps, and hang in there sister girl. I know that I have some white friends who I love to death but sometimes when some racial stuff comes up and they don't get it I just want to smack them, but I don't I try to keep rolling or let them go if it is too much. SOmetimes you have to weigh these things. Sorry for the long-winded run-on paragraph. :-)

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  5. Oh, Simone, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm also a black woman with mostly white friends, and sometimes they say crazy things. I know that feeling of wanting to challenge racism when I see and not wanting to spoil other people's fun, but now this is my guideline: I don't expect my white friends to be as racially aware as I am, but what determines whether or not we stay friends is how they react when I point out their own or other's racism out to them. I think that anybody who treats you the way those two did isn't your friend. They failed in multiple ways.

    A. Lynching is genocide and genocide is not funny. For some reason often white people don't recognize lynching as genocide are part of a Holocaust -- but they should when you point it out.

    B. A black person wouldn't wear that costume, and it's unfair to try to justify racist acts by making a hypothetical black person the culprit.

    C. Your friend should have protected you -- that's what friends do.

    You sound like a smart, sweet young lady -- I'm sure there are a ton of people who would appreciate and be more worthy of your friendship than these two.

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  6. One thing I found interesting/angering about your story is that you friend encouraged you to tell her boyfriend, puting the burden of outrage onto you. If she was outraged also, why didn't she tell him? It's like you're somehow the valid representative of "your" race in her eyes and the invalid representative of "your" race in his. Either way you're objectified and unseen.

    Wearing blackface and a noose is objectionable to anyone of any race who has anything resembling a conscience or a sense of morality. I wouldn't want to be around her or him. Her silence is no different than his attack, in my view. In some ways it is worse.

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  7. OMG!
    are you freaking kidding me?!
    (and that's exactly what i would have said when i saw that whack ass costume)

    i probably would've asked the guy why he didn't dress up like matthew sheppard instead.

    oh wait, no? why not? because it's not funny to dress up like people who are murder victims of hate crimes.

    nor should we even have to have this conversation.



    honestly, your friends sucked the other night. hold them to the line on it. i've had to do it before. sometimes you just have to let people go. seriously.

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  8. These are not friends. Your friend sold you out in favor of not creating trouble between her and her boyfriend. It's clear where her loyalties lie.

    I saw TONS of Native American and Mexican costumes this year. My friend, who is Mexican, wasn't terribly offended, but we did work out a little plot to go up to all the people dressed as Mexicans, all overly friendly and familiar, and start speaking to them in Spanish. Oh their faces... LOL. Maybe next year they'll think twice about wearing such a costume.

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  9. @Cloudy

    I saw TONS of Native American and Mexican costumes this year. My friend, who is Mexican, wasn't terribly offended, but we did work out a little plot to go up to all the people dressed as Mexicans, all overly friendly and familiar, and start speaking to them in Spanish. Oh their faces... LOL. Maybe next year they'll think twice about wearing such a costume.

    Ooooh, so evil. And yet so good :-)

    To the O.P. I'll second what thesciencegirl said

    @thesciencegirl

    If my white friends truly see me as both an equal and a friend, they will be personally invested in my equality.


    Your friend did not act like your friend. I actually remember a scene from the Michael J Fox sitcom where he was a lobbyist or something, and he didn't stand up for his black employee who got police profiled. His words at the end of the episode were to the effect of 'I effed up, I didn't act like your friend in this situation.. I,ll do better'. It was a good episode, and my respect for Michael J Fox (who was the writer of the show) went up quite a bit.

    Your friend owes you an apology at the very least. But given the incident, you might want to consider, is she really your friend? I'm not white, I'm not a woman, but if one of my white female friends told me that something was offensive, my first instinct would be to agree and then try to understand why. I'm not gay, but if one of my gay friends told me something was offensive, I would shut up, accept it and try to understand it. When something hurts your friend is not the time to trot out your debate skills. Only self-important privileged jerks do that. And only weak friends don't stand up for their friends.

    IMHO if it was me (and this is just me), I would have kicked her to the curb.

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  10. I would not talk to the boyfriend because he clearly doesn't care about your hurt feelings and seemed bent on having his own view--that the costume was hilarious--validated. He seems the type who believes that the world isn't racist and that POCs make much ado about nothing over racial issues. Be it you or another POC, his mind is made up. Also, he doesn't sound terribly bright. I wouldn't take your girl friend's response too personally. She sounds like a woman whose goal is first and foremost to please her man. Therefore, even though she probably disagreed with him, she wasn't willing to get into an argument with him over it. That has nothing to do with you. Girlfriend simply needs to grow a pair...of ovaries.

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  11. I had many experiences like Simone did growing up. I guess that is why now, I refuse to bite my tongue and when people say such insensitive, idiotic things, I shoot right back, offending them like they offend me. It isn't right, but it isn't my job to teach the ignorant folks of the world either.

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  12. I think macon said everything I would say.

    side note @ siddity's comment... Up until recently, I took a passive aggressive approach (eye rolling, snarky white stereotype comments)... but I finally got to a point and sat a couple people down. I agree w/Siddity that it should be the black person's burden to teach white persons about their own racism & bias. But then I reminded myself that I'm white (I forget sometimes) which puts me in a different position.a) other white people are often more frequently willing to listen to me and b) I am less threatening / they feel less defensive with me. Because I am white, As satisfying as my snarky comments were, they weren't particularly effective. I literally used the Jay Smooth video to practice having these conversations, and it was very helpful.

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  13. Hello, we are a white family adopting a black daughter. I don't think you overreacted at all and I plan on raising my daughter to know that she does not have to deal with ignorant people in this world. If she were in the same situation I would tell her that a true friend is one that stands up for you and for your feelings no matter what. Ultimately it is your choice whether or not to speak with her about your feelings and see how receptive she is. I am totally apalled by the entire situation, not shocked, but apalled. Hold your peace, and let the Lord fight your battles and victory will be yours. Keep your head up, fight for your beliefs and don't ever let any body downplay your feelings. I wish you well and you are in my prayers darling.

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  14. Oh. My. God.

    Okay, it's been twenty minutes since I read the post and I still can't up with something coherent. Every time I think that I have seen the worst stupidity and insensitivity that the average person has to offer, that the bar has been set so impossibly low that nobody else can get under it... somebody manages to squirm under the bar.

    A blackface costume with lynching as the gag. O. M. F. G. What, blackface itself wasn't obnoxious enough?

    Your friend fails for not calling him on it (and for not backing you up when you did), and he just fails as a human being in general. Other than that, others such as LisaMJ and Macon have already done an excellent job of going in-depth.

    As for me, I'm going to spend the rest of the night mentally jaw-dropped over this one. Seriously, WTF.

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  15. I don't want to repeat anything anyone else said, because I think there are great points (and also because it's way past my bedtime) but I will say this:

    Your friend is probably not the problem. Though she clearly has self-esteem issues that cause her to act a certain way around her boyfriend, I think she is probably more aware than your average white person and her bad behavior stems from her inability to stand up for herself in front of this guy (who a) is clearly racist and b) you said "has changed her" in other ways, so seems like a bad guy all-around).

    I think your girl friend is worth holding on to, but I have no idea what you should say to her. Perhaps someone else will.

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  16. thesciencegirl said: "I have realized in the last few years that it becomes nearly impossible for me to maintain friendships with white people who are not actively anti-racist. It is not enough for them to just be nice people or to generally not be racist."

    This. So much this.

    I can't be close to people who don't value my voice and my experiences. I can't be close to people who proudly declare that they "don't see race", or tell me "I don't even think of you as black!". Because it's those same people who don't see racism, especially when they themselves are the ones perpetrating it.

    Simone, I'm sad and angry on your behalf, and disappointed in your friend. I'm glad you found this blog. It isn't perfect, but it's a pocket of the world where it's safe(r) to have hard conversations, and to call racism by its rightful name.

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  17. I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I've never heard of such a racist Halloween costume. I don't think I'd feel safe in a group where someone was wearing that. I certainly wouldn't feel safe around a man who finds it humorous.

    It's incredibly hard to reevaluate friends [esp. best friends], and cut loose some from time to time, but it must be done. This is one of those times. Your friend's willingness to be involved with a man who finds this behavior acceptable is her business - but you don't have to subject yourself to it.

    It's time to start cultivating relationships with people who care how you feel. I, too, echo thesciencegirl: "It is not enough for them to just be nice people or to generally not be racist. ... If my white friends truly see me as both an equal and a friend, they will be personally invested in my equality."

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  18. Maybe everyone should realize that some people just want to be assholes. And the "friend" who didn't stick up for you sounds like a doormat. And her "boyfriend" sounds like a Douchbag. Stop talking to them, and delete their numbers from your Cellphone. There are appoximately 7billion people in the world, and there are plenty who would love to be your friends. Why waste precious time with douchbags?

    There. Problem solved.

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  19. I have realized in the last few years that it becomes nearly impossible for me to maintain friendships with white people who are not actively anti-racist. It is not enough for them to just be nice people or to generally not be racist. The people who have consistently disappointed me in that area, by questioning instead of supporting my claims of racism, for instance, have lost my friendship. If my white friends truly see me as both an equal and a friend, they will be personally invested in my equality.

    You have no idea how much I needed to hear this now.

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  20. Your friends are garbage. Get new ones.

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  21. @umbrella today

    "I can't be close to people who don't value my voice and my experiences. I can't be close to people who proudly declare that they "don't see race", or tell me "I don't even think of you as black!". Because it's those same people who don't see racism, especially when they themselves are the ones perpetrating it. "

    OMG, yes! It drives me nuts when race comes up and a white person spouts this. To me, I feel like they're saying, I choose not see who you are, I choose not to acknowledge a very real part of your reality."

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  22. Simone,

    If you still want to be friends with this girl, you need to have a serious talk with her. She probably doesn't understand that her passive attitude was even more hurtful to you than seeing that costume.

    You could show her how much it upset you by refusing to see her when her boyfriend is present. Tell her you don't want her to choose between you and him, but you just don't feel comfortable around him anymore.
    If she is indeed your best friend, this should be an alarm signal to her, it should tell her that things are getting out of control with this guy. But if she insists on shoving this guy down your throat... then, sorry, she's not a real friend. You can always meet new people.

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  23. Of course I'm a male ('white'), but in your position, I'd have been sorely tempted to plant a boot in the fellow's nutsack and then, when he dropped gasping to the floor, grabbed the noose around his neck, hoisted the asswipe to his feet and asked him if he STILL thought lynching black folk was "hilarious.".

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  24. If that were me at that stage in life, I would have possibly did jail time. Jettison these clowns fast!

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  25. Simone, I agree with Jillian. It seems like the problem is that your friend has trouble standing up to her boyfriend.

    Alternatively, she may have kept quiet because she thought a black person's perspective might be more convincing to her boyfriend than her own.

    You won't know until you talk to her. If her intentions are good and she's committed to being a loyal friend, she'll listen to what you say and try to change her behavior. If she doesn't do that, then I don't see the point of being friends with her. And if you don't want to go to the trouble of having that talk, that's okay too.

    Regardless of what you do or don't do about your friend, you definitely were not overreacting to the costume. Black people dying is not funny. Period.

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  26. Simone here:
    Thanks for all your comments. i don't think I will bother to talk to her about it, because she isn't the type of person who you can sit down and talk with. i dunno why, she just wouldn't listen, and then say I'm making a big deal. So I'll just let this friendship go for now. Maybe one day, when she breaks up with her racist boyfriend, she'll be back to normal and I can feel comfortable around her again, but until then, I'll just leave it be.

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  27. Great replies here. It good to see that there are folk that would stand up to this cowardly bullshit.

    You've just gotten a new reader.

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  28. Hi Simone,

    I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to reiterate the fact that you were right, and your friend and her boyfriend were wrong. I'm a young white woman, and I would have been furious had a costume like that popped up at the party I attended on Halloween. I would have insisted that the hosts throw that person out. If they didn't, I would've left and asked everyone to leave with me.

    I don't understand your friend's reaction (or lack thereof). I do not have any black friends, but had I been with one of my Asian or Latino friends and saw a costume that was insensitive to their race, I would have, as a white person, felt deeply embarrassed.

    A woman at my office sent around an e-mail making fun of the way Chinese Americans speak English. My stomach tied itself up into a million little knots at the thought of one of my Chinese American coworkers--and one of my favorite engineers to work with--seeing that. She has a heavy accent that I know must frustrate her because it keeps her from communicating all that's in her genius brain. I complained about the e-mail to my boss, who said she hadn't thought if it that way but ultimately agreed with me.

    Again, Simone, I'm so sorry to hear not only that this happened to you.

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  29. First of all, I'm so - so sorry you had to experience that and then to further compound the issue, you have liekly lost a friend. Mind you, I'm sure she will apologize "for" her ignorant piece of shit boyfriend and maybe even her passivity, but I think that deep down inside of you, you know this is one of those things where an apology just doesn't smooth it over. You'll probably always look back on this and not be able to respect your friend for just standing there.

    I think that was a shitty thing for her to do. I wouldn't be able to speak to her again. I would take the time to let her know that she has changed things between you two and I wouldn't talk to her again. If you feel inclined to tell her the details of why or to send her a letter even, then go for it. But I think she knows. She denied how she felt about it by shutting up when she saw that moron thought it was funny.

    As for the dudes - one of them you were hardly friends with to begin with. I honestly don't know how I'd handle him. But I'd look for pictures of the one in the costume on FB or something, save them and do something with them... I don't know what - but something. I'm just sayin..

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  30. One thing I, as an African-American male, am afraid you still don't/haven't considered. Those persons that find this 'hilarious' are likely the same 'type' of people that would've done the lynching in the first place. Now that crew is bad enough, but what reinforced it was the group that said nothing, came out to watch and cheer or just held their piece.

    These types of actions kept lynching in place as a viable tool of terrorism for centuries.

    Your friend and her boyfriend fit into both groups. What you need to realize is this makes them a clear and present danger to you. No friendship is worth your life. Think about that!

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  31. I have realized in the last few years that it becomes nearly impossible for me to maintain friendships with white people who are not actively anti-racist.

    Yeah, me too.

    LisaMJ, I agree with you that the boyfriend sounds like someone not worth Simone wasting her time, but at the same time, if that's how the majority culture is, we can't ignore them all, can we? They are the ones that need the most convincing of how wrong something like DRESSING UP AS A LYNCHED BLACK PERSON is. And how terrorizing, dehumanizing, and murdering people based on their race isn't something that's to be celebrated or used as entertainment. If we ignore them, they will perpetuate the ignorance and we will continue to be seen as less than human.

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  32. "I have realized in the last few years that it becomes nearly impossible for me to maintain friendships with white people who are not actively anti-racist. It is not enough for them to just be nice people or to generally not be racist. "

    Yup.

    Hey, that guy with the noose is a scumbag. And he needs a punch, that's my take. And your friend is ignorant, maybe thats the worst crime we can accuse them of. But right now, we cannot call them "friend." Or I wouldn't.

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  33. I attended a halloween party this year dressed with my brother as a "Smile Now, Cry Later" hispanic cholo costume, I am from Northern European descent. My bandmate that also attended the same said event with a rented costume of a Nazi officers uniform, My friend is 100% African American!!! Is he insensitive to the opions of Jews or in denial of the holocaust, No! Does he get a free pass because he is a minority, mostly yes. But It Was Funny!!!!!!!!!!

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  34. Capon, you and your friends fail in life. Accept it. It's not cool, period.

    I have a Facebook friend/fellow teacher that posed with some dude in blackface, an Afro wig, and Obama shirt. How do I deal with this?

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  35. @Capon.

    No, he does not get a so called 'free pass' because he is a minority.
    It is still wrong and just as terrible and dehumanizing if he was White or any other ethnicity.

    :\
    Ignorance these days.

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  36. Hi Simone,

    I'm really sorry that happened, and for this BW your story hit home. I recently ended a long friendship with my BF (white), so you'll have to excuse me if I sound unreasonably angry towards your friend, whom I imagine means alot to you. Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered writing.

    My BF from high school was white, and I experienced alot of these situations until our relationship came to a dead end when her racism was finally directed towards my family the week before her wedding. While I was really upset, I can't say I didn't see the signs before hand. Deep down I understand that she can be an exceptional person, but she just wasn't interested in defending my world to hers, and thought it best that I compromise to keep things peaceful.

    It's not that they want to be racist, but they also don't want to be black. They want to be able to date people who don't take these things so seriously, and they want to hang out with their friends, ignorant to racism. They want to come home from school/work and live in privilege, and as long as you are black and occasionally offended, that could get in their way.

    I'm with Dan. Find new friends.

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  37. Simone...

    You have been given a gracious gift of knowing yourself and the kind of people who should be in your inner circle.

    Act on the gift. Free yourself of these people. They may come into a realization that lynching isn't something to be mocked for their entertainment but it isn't your job to lead them to that epiphany.

    I share an excerpt from a Toni Morrison interview with NY magazine for additional insight:

    Yet none of this is to say that Morrison thinks race has run its course as an American topic (even if Obama wins). “Crude and crass as most of it is and, really, uninformed as almost all of it is, the discourse about race is important,” she says. “But the real conversation should take place among white people. They should talk to each other about that. Not with me. I can’t be the doctor and the patient.”

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  38. well...the noose was around his neck, you say? i woulda grabbed the rope, pulled it tight and tugged on it, saying; 'pretty funny now, huh?'

    really tho, i think to many whites Lynching is just kind of abstract-they don't REALLY understand if they haven't seen the photos.

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