tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post918026699071556565..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: laugh at english that they associate with asiansmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76157080920978762822010-03-05T05:04:44.905-08:002010-03-05T05:04:44.905-08:00bob, I think I see your point, but I don't qui...bob, I think I see your point, but I don't quite get the idea that white Americans are proud to speak English well? Seems to me they just take that for granted about themselves. An irony I see in their condescending laughter at others learning English as a second (third, fourth, etc.) language is how relatively foolish they themselves look, for being rather self-satisfied with, in most cases, being able to only speak one language.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-72380060446702893302010-03-05T05:01:49.866-08:002010-03-05T05:01:49.866-08:00And in asia, they can't figure out why white p...And in asia, they can't figure out why white people wear tshirts with nonsensical chinese/japanese/some other language.<br /><br />I once saw a white guy with a shirt filled with chinese characters, except the characters are not only upside down but also flipped.<br /><br />americans, esp white americans, like to pat themselves on the back for having such a great mastery of english while the foolish asians can't seem to get it but they forget that asians also think it's hilarious when whites wear nonsensical asian words.bob loblawnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-54631777340681582212010-02-03T14:44:36.981-08:002010-02-03T14:44:36.981-08:00While a lot of the ways people make fun of Asians ...While a lot of the ways people make fun of Asians is very offensive, I don't think the "Engrish" thing is one of them. A lot of those websites that supposedly make fun of Asian English make fun of the English skills of foreign white people too. A lot of the posts are from Russia, Bulgaria, and other places in Europe. While in Russia I often laughed at bad English translations and how my Russian friends spoke, but they made fun of how we speak Russian too. It's not a race thing, we just cant help but laugh at something that sounds funny in our language, and we see it as a simple miscommunication and not a way to demean people.Kristinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91547578020798141722010-01-05T16:13:41.475-08:002010-01-05T16:13:41.475-08:00@James
To quote the great RVCBard, "Run alon...@James<br /><br />To quote the great RVCBard, "Run along now, baby troll. Grown people are talking."What She Saidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12752207322125498602010-01-05T15:38:37.398-08:002010-01-05T15:38:37.398-08:00Oh someone fell for it. I never said that two wron...Oh someone fell for it. I never said that two wrongs make a right. I simply said it's an interesting view from the other side of the fence. You assumed and put words in my mouth. Don't assume that A.) I'm white (only 1/4 caucasion. The rest is Arab and Mexican) B.) That being white means I would make the mistake of thinking two wrongs make a right, you racist :)Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76472597446157352762010-01-05T08:22:20.352-08:002010-01-05T08:22:20.352-08:00James wrote,
Oh and I found this gem www.debito.o...James wrote,<br /><br /><i>Oh and I found this gem www.debito.org/kumegaffeone.html Interesting view from the other side of the fence, and yes I feel the subject of that story IS far more racist because it calls out gaijin specifically, and indicates the speaker wishes to handicap them in Japanese society. Something no engrish poster I've seen has ever done.</i><br /><br />Please read <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/10/derail-dialogues-on-race-with-arab.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> -- I think it describes the mistake you're making here at this blog about stuff white people do.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-88419963556742386522010-01-05T06:43:59.574-08:002010-01-05T06:43:59.574-08:00Hmm, I screwed up that should be "no shitA ni...Hmm, I screwed up that should be "no shitA ni irU." What I said was "The girl hero the table color is smiling." But that's a perfect example of how easy it is to screw up, and how we can make "gaijin no nihongo" too. Oh and I found this gem www.debito.org/kumegaffeone.html Interesting view from the other side of the fence, and yes I feel the subject of that story IS far more racist because it calls out gaijin specifically, and indicates the speaker wishes to handicap them in Japanese society. Something no engrish poster I've seen has ever done.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-39276718780436883482010-01-05T01:21:57.453-08:002010-01-05T01:21:57.453-08:00Ok, on Miley. Seriously, she's SEVENTEEN. Let ...Ok, on Miley. Seriously, she's SEVENTEEN. Let they who are without sin cast the first stone. Can anyone honestly say they never made a mistake, ESPECIALLY, when they were a teenager?? I thought not. This picture was taken out of context and she was probably caught up in the moment. Was she wrong to do it, yes, but she issued an apology and, frankly, I think it makes her a better role model than if she had not done it. Teenagers make mistakes and putting a teenager up on a pedastal that's perfect, never messes up and pointing saying "Be like her" is just as bad as plastering pictures of super models all over and telling young girls they should look like them. Having a teen that makes mistakes then owns up to them shows teens how to handle it. Instead would you rather have a perfect teen role model that simply makes us mere mortals feel like dirt beneath their shining example?<br />As for engrish, it's not racism. Racism is taking a persons RACE and making fun of it for the purpose of demeaning that race. First off, The way a person speaks is not a quality of their race. How many people do you know, of African decent, that speak Nigerian? Second, most Engrish sites I've seen do not make fun of the Japanese people, their customs, way of life, or physical appearance. There's a difference between "making fun of" and "having a laugh at." Engrish is has a laugh at how difficult it is to translate Japanese to English because of how different the languages are. There are few words that directly translate. For example, "Futari Onnanohito" means "Two women" but "Futari Tori" (tori is bird) is so horribly wrong I can't even post a literal translation because Futari can only be used to count PEOPLE. The closest translation I can think of is "Two people birds" and that's not even right because Furtari doesn't always translate literally to "Two people." Also "Teeburu no shite ni iro Onnaonoko wa warrate imasu" means "the girl under the table is smiling." Notice Table came first in the subject fragment (the part before the wa). If I said it (with an English predisposition, ie. Subject identified first) "Onnanoko no shite ni iro Teeburu wa warrate imasu" This would mean "The Table under the girl is smiling" to a Japanese person. I'd bet you they'd chuckle, then correct me and we'd all have a laugh and I'd never forget that the reference object comes first in a positional statement again. Is that wrong? Should I be offended and scold that Japanese friend? Maybe call him a racist and go cry in a corner? Or should I simply laugh with them and accept the criticism? I'll take the latter and learn to be a better Japanese speaker. As shown this is not a one way street. There are as many pitfalls for us learning Japanese as there are for them learning English. To me Engrish is a warning sign. It taught me that I should do my best to learn to speak Japanese properly so that I do not insult their culture and their people by decimating the language when I attempt to speak it. I'm not saying that it's wrong or that they insult us with Engrish. Like I said, people make mistakes, it's how they react. If they cry about it, and say they're insulted then go ask us never to criticize their language skills, then they'll never learn to speak English properly. As long as the commentary on Engrish stays away from "omg those japanese are soooo stooopid lolololol" and it remains constructive. Then it's fine.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21263339348082805452009-09-04T07:33:48.578-07:002009-09-04T07:33:48.578-07:00i feel so sorry for the chinese guy, the white peo...i feel so sorry for the chinese guy, the white people seems to be taking the piss out of the chinese! they are damn racist, how would they feel if they were chinese and get laugh at all the time and making funny faces?Burgundynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12686591691646282672009-08-15T16:08:30.946-07:002009-08-15T16:08:30.946-07:00Amanda, I don't get it -- all people do this? ...Amanda, I don't get it -- all people do this? Are you seriously saying that Asian people laugh at English they associate with white people? <br /><br />As I've said here before, I don't believe that white people are essentially different from other people. I do believe that white people are trained to think, feel, and act in common white ways. Not "all people" get trained that way, nor even most of them -- only most white people. <br /><br />Do you see what I mean by making tbat distinction? And do you see how significant it is?<br /><br />Yes, in some of the posts here, some other people do what I say a lot of white people do. But even then, white people do it more, or they do it in a particular way or ways. And a lot of those ways are racist ways, even when the person doing it would never consider themselves a "racist."<br /><br />Do you consider yourself a "racist"? If not, then why would you want to continue doing racist things that your being categorized as white encourages you to do?macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50476642347603295862009-08-15T15:20:28.387-07:002009-08-15T15:20:28.387-07:00Wow. What a completely racist post. Why is it th...Wow. What a completely racist post. Why is it that 95% of people complaining about racism are blatantly practicing reverse racism, and not being called on it?<br /><br />The actions you tout as being what 'white people' do (regardless of your pointless little blurb at the top specifying 'some' white people) can be completely and totally accurate without the 'white' adjective in there whatsoever. PEOPLE do this. Everyone. <br /><br />If this is the way you've found to bring people to your blog, more power to you, but reverse racism (even against your own race) is just as disgusting as 'regular' racism. <br /><br /> * rac·ism<br /> * Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\<br /> * Function: noun<br /> * Date: 1933<br /><br />1 : a belief that <b>race is the primary determinant of human traits</b> and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race<br /><b>2 : racial prejudice or discrimination</b><br /><br />— rac·ist \-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective <br /><br />Next time, try commenting on the sad state of the HUMAN race, instead of just the parts of it you don't like.Amandahttp://rediscoveryourself.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-49136105704207918462009-06-18T11:39:27.009-07:002009-06-18T11:39:27.009-07:00Hey there. Rain Blanken here.
Not sure how you i...Hey there. Rain Blanken here. <br /><br />Not sure how you interpreted my video about Japanese errors in translation to be racist. It's a common phenomenon that happens among ill-informed clothing makers who need better native English speakers in the company. This commentary certainly doesn't meant that everyone in Japan doesn't know good English, and I think that is clear in my video. To make me out to be racist is bordering on slander, considering all my other videos on YouTube are about LEARNING JAPANESE LANGUAGE.<br /><br />Obviously I have a deep respect for the language and people of Japan. I've spent YEARS learning the language and culture. Perhaps you should have done more research on my videos before posting this.<br /><br />As your reader evidently agree, bad grammar is just damn funny. It's just as humorous to spot those 'I'm an idiot' bracelets being sold in Hot Topic that people wear in America because they don't understand what they say in Japanese. Also, I'm a writer by trade. It's my JOB to spot typos and crap grammar.<br /><br />The next time Miley Cyrus slants her eyes at a camera, don't go finding the first YouTube video you can get your hands on to try to lump in with your 'news' on racism in America. Had you watched ANY of my other videos, this would have been evident.<br /><br />You know what would be racist? If we ignored the typos on their shirts just BECAUSE they are Japanese. How about that?Rain Blankenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543336381635920205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33174932456485536762009-06-10T00:21:06.198-07:002009-06-10T00:21:06.198-07:00True true. The article was very interesting and i...True true. The article was very interesting and it's very good that you bring up the point, but not because I agree with your views on the entire subject. I say that because it's important for everyone to consider what exactly they're laughing at. These jokes really have nothing to do with race. They have to do with grammatical mistakes. It is the fact that whatever was said was so ridiculous and made so little sense, despite the fact that you know exactly what the person is trying to say.<br /><br />I'm white. Please don't pin this on my one race. It happens everywhere and in every culture. People make fun of differences. Many of us joke to find common ground. My gay friend told me to never say a gay joke again because they were too funny for him to handle. People make fun of me for being short. So f*cking what? It's the truth. I can take a joke about myself whether it be about appearance, grammar, physical abilities, whatever. The problem I see is that both sides are often too ignorant to see where the other one is coming from. People need to loosen up and realize that they are who they are and if they can't grip that, they need to learn how to laugh at themselves.TJ Petterssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07893010152425925045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-10472981307302501592009-05-22T20:00:14.391-07:002009-05-22T20:00:14.391-07:00I think your post is interesting and overall very ...I think your post is interesting and overall very informative. You're absolutely right, most white folks do not understand how offensive some things they say are. <br /><br />It goes both ways though. People who are not white often don't understand how offensive some of their remarks can be. That's right, it is possible to be racist against white folks. I know that is a smart ass remark, but I'm making point to anyone who might read this.<br /><br />For example, when I hear people who are Asian (or other races) say "man that is SO white" it annoys me. It's like we are the definition of "uncool" and have no culture.<br /><br />Another one, which really hits a nerve with me is the "white people are so disrespectful" speech. People of all races can be disrespectful. It's high context culture v. low context culture. Whites tend to be more direct. Some Asians see this as aggressive. Asians tend to be more subtle. Some whites see this as dishonest. It's a lack of cultural understanding.<br /><br />Just mildly offensive? No big deal, right? Just as "ching chong ching chong" is just mild insult and no big deal. No that pisses you guys off (and you have every right to be angry).<br /><br />Like I said you are correct about much of it what your discussing. But it seems your post implies white people are completely ignorant. We're not! Some of us are. But you know what? Some of you guys are too!<br /><br />So if you are going to bring up whites being racist, just make sure you look in the mirror first and check that you aren't being a little racist yourself.<br /><br />Oh and mocking peoples' accents, while very rude, isn't racist. I can't roll my r's in Indonesian. It's not because I'm white, it's because I haven't practiced enough. Ngomong-ngomong, kami bukan bule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-19169414079047136002009-05-21T11:32:31.011-07:002009-05-21T11:32:31.011-07:00I agree with practically all of this.
But just one...I agree with practically all of this.<br />But just one point: I <I>do</I> find poor, obviously machine-generated translations funny (eg: "Truck, Smell the Pleasure"). To me, it's the over-reliance on machines part that's funny. They can't do <I>everything</I> better. Not to mention the all-too-corporate "no need to check this; who cares" attitude. And this goes for <I>all</I> bad translations (of languages that I read well enough to understand, anyway). I've seen, and been amused by, bad French-to-English signs, bad English-to-Spanish signs, etc. (Can companies not find bilingual <I>humans?</I> Not even in the places where this signage is needed?)<br /><br />I have been known to crack myself up by putting text into Babelfish, and double-translating it to something else and then back into itself. It's best if the text is really figurative, or uses lots of idioms (poetry; song lyrics). The results are invariably hilarious!<br /><br />I doubt this stance is typical, and therefore it's probably not what you were referring to. Still, I just wanted to point out an alternate POV on the "Engrish"=funny issue. (PS&NB: I <I>do</I> have a problem with that word! And no, I'm not Japanese. Or Asian, for that matter.) (Nor am I white!)sonykanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-25136324662411846952009-05-05T03:48:00.000-07:002009-05-05T03:48:00.000-07:00I'm living in China, and the Japanese clothing mak...I'm living in China, and the Japanese clothing maker is absolutely right, the Engrish is as funny to proficient English speakers from Asian countries as it is to native speakers. It's about the language. Quite a number of people wearing these clothes know perfectly well that it makes no sense or is quite hilarious. It's why they bought the shirt in the first place!Markhttp://marknewland.theworldrace.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91471247528782186632009-04-27T23:01:00.000-07:002009-04-27T23:01:00.000-07:00I agree with everything in your post except your r...I agree with everything in your post except your response to Ashley whom you quoted. <br />As a traveler and as a lover and learner of languages, I understand her reaction to the mistaken English very well. My cousin once said something like "it's very farty today" (meaning to say windy) in German while in Germany and everyone laughed, then corrected her. I'm sure they all went and told others who also laughed. It's not about race, but language. My German ex-boyfriend used to say ridiculous things; so do my friends who speak Portuguese, Spanish, Korean, Cantonese, and French. And I laugh at them as much as they laugh at me when I say something silly their language. <br />But let me reiterate that I agree with the bulk of the post. Putting on an accent or incorrect grammar to imitate someone whose different from you can be really condescending.<br />Screwing up other languages keeps me from getting proud when people make mistakes in English...Maybe that's the key! If we Americans cared enough to learn other languages we wouldn't be so cocky about ours...hmAlisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01329395021356656006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-19427130288958731392009-04-03T14:01:00.000-07:002009-04-03T14:01:00.000-07:00I think that native English speakers also like to ...I think that native English speakers also like to show their superiority to other native English speakers who have regional accents. For example, western Canadians make fun of Ontario people who say "oot" instead of "out" and "aboot" instead of "about". In fact, I've heard Americans imitate Canadians this way. As an English tutor to immigrants from various countries around the world, including many Asian countries, one of the things I hear most from students is that they are often afraid to try speaking English in a public forum because they don't want to be laughed at by native English speakers. I sometimes think that mispronounciations are "cute" or "amusing" but I need to let students know that they are in a safe place where it is okay to make mistakes when learning English and that they will not be judged or laughed at for making mistakes.Wandanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-55377985924354037312009-03-06T15:09:00.000-08:002009-03-06T15:09:00.000-08:00I think exactly what people are laughing at when i...I think exactly what people are laughing at when it comes to broken English really depends on the person. I don't think it's necessarily connected to racism or feelings of superiority - though it can be. <BR/><BR/>I study Japanese and have a lot of contact with Japanese people. Many of my friends with English as a second language have different levels of English ability. Some have a stereotypical accent and others speak with barely any accent. And the important thing is that differences in ability among a group are acknowledged. <BR/><BR/>I do tend to be bothered when East Asians are portrayed in the media 98% of the time as saying "rike" instead of like. I don't think it's funny when broken English is associated with a group of people as being one of their only defining characteristics. A lot of East Asian characters tend to be sort of two dimensional or maybe more like one dimensional. Their characters ARE stereotypes and nothing more. I remember I found the treatment of the Japanese student character in Revenge of the Nerds to be so distracting and unfunny. Sure, that movie relies on stereotypes for many other characters but why is utter reliance on the display of stereotypes so hilarious? I found it annoying rather than funny.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I do find broken English in itself to be amusing. It just sounds cute and the unexpected phrases can be entertaining. I do have a friend who often says "angly" instead of "angry". This makes me think of angry triangles in my head. It's a strange image. But it's the word itself that I find amusing. It's not the Japanese man saying the word that I find amusing. In fact, this sort of "engrish" occurs in many other areas of the world and is still amusing. I remember coming across some Romanian restaurants with really interesting English names and I found them amusing too.<BR/><BR/>But I am also a learner of several languages. While the mistakes are cute on their own, I think it can really discourage someone to always have people laughing and commenting about their level of ability. I know I feel that way when people mention my "cute Japanese". The words and phrases are cute on their own but the person uttering them is trying to improve...<BR/>So, it's difficult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38875717142254775982009-03-04T14:19:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:19:00.000-08:00Interesting distinction from PG:Is there a notable...Interesting distinction from PG:<BR/><BR/>Is there a notable difference between mocking Asian-English snafus in the hypothetical (this would include the racist jokes and email fwds that are so abundant)and mocking actual products emblazoned with English mis-translations?<BR/> I grew up in Japan, and while I learned early that it's not funny or polite to mock someone's accent or difficulties with English, we never stopped laughing at the commercials for "AMERICAN BAR" and other poor appropriations of English in products and ads.<BR/> To be honest I've always assumed it's on purpose at this point, and that they are having a laugh at us too.<BR/> I'm open to the idea that this also needs to change, but I feel like it's a different level of humor. One is mean at another's expense, the other (hopefully) expresses amusuement at harmless cultural cross-pollination.<BR/><BR/> Great post, and thanks as always for provoking some critical thought during my day!scornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614451945764794540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18372683470640139012009-03-03T08:34:00.000-08:002009-03-03T08:34:00.000-08:00Thanks for changing the title again, Macon D. At ...Thanks for changing the title again, Macon D. At first I didn't get it, but now I see. Even though the concept it represents is being critiqued, using the word to represent the concept is still racist.MultiToddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13012886548421685096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12741553077762174352009-03-03T01:24:00.000-08:002009-03-03T01:24:00.000-08:00I agree with PG too; I think there's a big differe...I agree with PG too; I think there's a big difference between making fun of people's language ability when they're trying to communicate, and making fun of signs in a business or corporate setting that have been poorly translated, or where English/any other language has been employed for "coolness" purposes. The example of non-Chinese speakers getting tattoos saying silly things is very apt.<BR/><BR/>As much as the translation being funny, it's the fact that no-one along the way decided to <I>check</I> the language. An example of this is that road signs in Wales need to be shown in both English and Welsh; recently one was erected with a Welsh out-of-office message from the translator because no-one bothered to check that the translation was correct.<BR/><BR/>But I'm completely agreed that making fun of people trying to make themselves understood is unacceptable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-45952399464781908272009-02-27T18:45:00.000-08:002009-02-27T18:45:00.000-08:00I should have posted my other comment on this post...I should have posted my other comment on this post. Resistance at resist racism points out that the word <A HREF="http://resistracism.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/huh-4/" REL="nofollow">"Engrish" is racist</A>. I didn't think about that initially, and now I agree. Resistance has some better suggestions, but Macon D said that those suggestions "lack the racial and racist specificity".<BR/><BR/>I tried Googling for alternatives to the word "Engrish", and then I found a Sociological Images post titled <A HREF="http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/01/20/laughing-at-engrish/" REL="nofollow">Laughing at "Engrish"</A>. Weird. It's almost the same title, with the scare quotes and everything.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think the real theme of this post, including the Miley Cyrus photo, is "feel superior to Asians".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71302737641510335262009-02-27T18:00:00.000-08:002009-02-27T18:00:00.000-08:00Macon D,It wasn't long enough ago, for instance, t...Macon D,<BR/><BR/><I>It wasn't long enough ago, for instance, that I finally stopped trying to amuse children with the following riddle. [...] Terrible jokes, both of them, but they sometimes got laughs. Now, however, I regret teaching kids that it's okay to laugh at what amounts to [...]</I><BR/><BR/>Just wondering. When you told these jokes to children, did they include Asian children? Or were they all white children?<BR/><BR/>Were these your children? How long ago was this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26404572827014074312009-02-26T16:04:00.000-08:002009-02-26T16:04:00.000-08:00I agree with PG. Also, while examples from Japan ...I agree with PG. Also, while examples from Japan and China are abundant, there are also bad translations from non-Asian countries (I remember seeing a few from Scandinavia in particular). There are also stories of English being badly translated by Anglophone corporations into foreign languages. (Snopes debunks the example I was going to use, Coke being called something that translated to "Bite the Wax Tadpole" in Chinese, but the fact that this story and its relatives are so popular demonstrates that it's not one-sided fun at the expense of Asians).<BR/><BR/>Besides, I don't think it's a mockery of skill at the language so much as it is a mockery of corporate laziness in translation. No level of bad English skills could produce this error: http://adweek.blogs.com/adfreak/2008/07/then-well-grab.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com