tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post7813251685564638244..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: minimize black heroismmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70811565876516172502010-03-18T17:51:12.555-07:002010-03-18T17:51:12.555-07:00I was thinking about this VERY thing Macon when th...I was thinking about this VERY thing Macon when the story came out about that a-hole that shot up the Holocaust museum. The security guard who gave his life to save others was black yet there was little if ANY coverage about him. I have a sneaky suspcion that had the races been REVERSED you would know everything there was to know about the white guard from his favorite color to the year he graduated high school. That also goes for the controversy surrounding the feud between Clint Eastwood and Spike Lee. I have seen movie after movie about Iwo Jima focusing SOLELY on th white soldiers rarely do I ever see that many movies about the Tuskegee Airmen. Or that they protected EVERY bomber flier they flew with every last one survived. Or the all black regiments in Nam even Morgan Freeman said he had never heard of black soldiers during the Civil War gee wonder why THAT is. There was even a runaway slave made into a General by the British during the Revolutionary War who was also a successful leader until he died of gangrene. I only heard his story once on some PBS special but I doubt things will change until we start telling our own stories our way.g9gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-24240010263942961252010-03-08T15:28:30.166-08:002010-03-08T15:28:30.166-08:00tell it like it is. we need to find out a way to s...tell it like it is. we need to find out a way to stop this it isn't right. I'm what you would call CBS(Cool black and smart)in an all white community. I have above a 4.0 GPA and I have only one teacher that respects me. The other ones treat me like crap despite my good grades and being very athletic.Quintinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311759934119823112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-20462631078638971622010-01-15T01:20:16.838-08:002010-01-15T01:20:16.838-08:00@ Lady Dani Mo:
>> "However, why is t...@ Lady Dani Mo: <br /><br />>> <i>"However, why is the media playing Brad and Angelina as being the rescuers of Haiti and not Wyclef Jean who has set up his own foundation for many years and is doing so much right now to help his native country?"</i><br /><br />Whoa...you're effing kidding me. Not about Wyclef Jean, I mean; about what the media is covering. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_goSKPCaM" rel="nofollow">More Black Haitian heroics</a> (1:09 onward)<br /><br />@ Nancy: <br /><br />Get over yourself.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-31460905313107260762010-01-14T22:40:00.857-08:002010-01-14T22:40:00.857-08:00Did your grandfather want to give public lectures ...<b>Did your grandfather want to give public lectures or publish a book about his experiences liberating the concentration camps? Was he frustrated at the lack of opportunity to tell his story to a wide audience?</b><br /><br />What would my answer mean to you?RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-37665730626152633912010-01-14T22:21:15.923-08:002010-01-14T22:21:15.923-08:00Willow at 1/13/10 5:40, and RVCBard, I agree that ...Willow at 1/13/10 5:40, and RVCBard, I agree that the conditions under which blacks fought in WWII, the burden of "representing the race", the contrast between patriotic service and a raw deal at home, the limited range of armed services jobs open to blacks (ditto in U.S. industries related to the war effort), the lack of battlefield recognition, the denial of deserved medals, the pay scale, the discrimination on re-entering the job market after the war, the difficulty in obtaining any GI bill benefits and the limited choices if the benefits came through, the contrast between Parisians' welcome to the liberators and the absence of a thank you on returning to the U.S., the failure of the U.S. Government to issue medals until 50 years after the event, the failure of general-audience media to tell the stories of black servicemen and servicewomen until 50 years after the event - I agree that all these things are caused by racism. This knowledge has been part of many easily accessible (public library book stock, PBS, some history and "left" magazines) popular history accounts for the past decade or so.<br /><br />RVCBard, your grandfather wanted and deserved more recognition for his service than he got. All armed services members want and deserve recognition for the personal sacrifices and risks taken for serving the country during war, and the sacrifices were greater for black armed services personnel.<br /><br />There is a difference between recognition for service and for heroism, universally desired, and recognition for repeatedly and publicly telling one's own story and displaying one's feelings about a horrific experience. The second type of recognition may not be universally desired. Some might feel a spiritual imperative to tell their story to as many strangers as possible, some might want to tell their story to family only, some might want to be silent.<br /><br />RVCBard, I am asking the question below about your grandfather as an individual black person who served in WWII, not as "black WWII veteran meant to be representative of all black WWII vets". <br /><br />Did your grandfather want to give public lectures or publish a book about his experiences liberating the concentration camps? Was he frustrated at the lack of opportunity to tell his story to a wide audience? <br /><br />Re: the nature of blog comments on racism when POC and WP are "expected" to interact due to the intention of the blog owner.<br /><br />I can't function in online anonymous public discussions that are not "real time". I am lost without hearing the voices and seeing the facial expressions and body language of other people, and without the ability to convey feeling by my own voice, face, body language, in real time communication. I know that I am not the only one who has trouble communicating in the (generic) blog comment format, whether the topic is racism, religion, reproduction, or some other emotionally charged topic. There may be an inherent limit in the efficiency of discussionwhen the discussants have different knowledge levels and personal relationship to the topic. <br /><br />WP slow the progress of the threads.NancyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-87455210293449385542010-01-14T09:11:37.316-08:002010-01-14T09:11:37.316-08:00I saw an example of Black heroism being minimized ...I saw an example of Black heroism being minimized in the media today. We all heard about massive earthquake that hit Haiti and nearly destroyed the entire country. However, why is the media playing Brad and Angelina as being the rescuers of Haiti and not Wyclef Jean who has set up his own foundation for many years and is doing so much right now to help his native country? Why is the media so concerned about a story of a White woman who was caught in earthquake and was being rescued by her boyfriend? or they are sending help messages in the media for people to find this young White man who in Haiti? So even with this drastic story over 50,000 Haitians that are dead and over 3 million that are homeles, injured,and not found they are so concerned about the protection of White people and making them center stage of this tradegy.Lady Dani Mohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159035061078141833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-88913177544832534652010-01-13T19:42:34.705-08:002010-01-13T19:42:34.705-08:00@thesciencegirl:
I think it would be great to hea...@thesciencegirl:<br /><br /><b>I think it would be great to hear more perspectives from asian commenters, native american, black men, etc., but all that requires is someone to step up and write the posts and comments [ . . . ]. Don't stomp all over the black women writing and participating in threads because they are a vocal presence here. [ . . . ] I don't have any problem with people empathizing, as long as we don't start comparing our oppressions.</b><br /><br />This could really stand to be stated <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/run-when-going-gets-tough.html" rel="nofollow">over here</a> too.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53865071919895736212010-01-13T07:37:42.691-08:002010-01-13T07:37:42.691-08:00@Willow, thank you, beautifully put. Fighting for...@Willow, thank you, beautifully put. Fighting for ideals that your own country doesn't even apply to you: that's heroism.<br /><br />And a general comment, since we've been going there on this thread: I think it would be great to hear more perspectives from asian commenters, native american, black men, etc., but all that requires is someone to step up and write the posts and comments [as Michael did here]. Don't stomp all over the black women writing and participating in threads because they are a vocal presence here. I would love to hear a broader variety of perspectives here, but that doesn't mean we have to check every box in every single thread. That being said, I don't have any problem with people empathizing, as long as we don't start comparing our oppressions. They all suck, ya know?nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-81460635815636635322010-01-13T06:24:18.479-08:002010-01-13T06:24:18.479-08:00@ AE:
The thread title is "minimize Black h...@ AE: <br /><br />The thread title is "minimize Black heroes," and the very first thing you want to do is ignore the heroics of Black women?<br /><br />The absurdity here was not in my question.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-1099803128971017522010-01-13T05:44:45.076-08:002010-01-13T05:44:45.076-08:00soul, I haven't apologized in response to RVCB...soul, I haven't apologized in response to RVCBard's saying that she gets tired of white apologies. I thought it would be more white center-staging. <br /><br />Re Willow's comment, I didn't respond because it's absurd (it also sounds rhetorical). OF COURSE I don't think that black women aren't heroes too. Who could possibly read recent threads and NOT think that? I was just saying, as A. Smith pointed out in a recent post, that it would be nice if a convo for black men could get going along the lines of those recent ones here among black women.<br /><br />Since you do approve of apologies, then I apologize to you for having misstepped in previous comments here.<br /><br />Are expressions of gratitude okay as well? Because I really appreciate and have learned from the things you've written here from a black perspective outside the U.S.AEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-78958349224912450752010-01-13T05:40:07.373-08:002010-01-13T05:40:07.373-08:00Nancy, with all due respect for your father and th...Nancy, with all due respect for your father and the <i>supreme asskickingness</i> (truly; but this thread isn't about WP) of my maternal grandma and grandpa, both WWII vets, the heroism of POC--<i>especially</i> Black Americans--who fought in World War II qualifies them as a little more than "ordinary heroes."<br /><br />I said I wanted to talk about Black heroes, so let's talk about Black heroes (not to deny the heroism of other POC; just to stay on topic of this thread specifically). Do you know what Black soldiers had to do during WWII? <i>Prove that Blacks were fit to be more than cannon fodder</i>. Prove they could LEAD. Hell, prove they could *think*. Before WWII, there had been FIVE Black officers in the Army. The Tuskegee Airmen were actually seen as an "experiment" -- OMGBLACKOFFICERS! Can this work?! (Hint: yes). The other "experiment"? Sending Black nurses to England, to treat POWs, to see whether Black women could treat white men.<br /><br /><i>(I'm generalizing here, but this is the accumulated conclusion I've drawn from a lot of reading on this topic. I respect that individual experiences may vary).</i><br />Every. Single. Time. a Black officer or noncom put on his uniform, he was taking a stand against contemporary beliefs that white people had a monopoly on intelligence and leadership. Every. Single. Time. a Black man went into combat, he knew he was representing not just his country but his race. Why am I asserting this? Even military <i>church services</i> were segregated. Black officers were arrested for trying to enter officers' clubs. Regiments with Black soldiers had (Colored) tagged on after their name, while white men just got to be the "9th Infantry Regiment." They weren't "just" soldiers. They were Black, and they were reminded of it at every step.<br /><br />Black Americans were fighting in a military that discriminated against them and FOR A COUNTRY that discriminated against them. We talk about the "Greatest Generation" and WWII being the last 'noble war' and all that jazz; what do you think it would be like to be told "You have to give your life to save these people who are discriminated against and protect your country!" when you know that at home, you can't walk into a restaurant or drink from a clean water fountain because of the color of your skin? (NOT an invitation to play Oppression Olympics with the Holocaust, btw).<br /><br />And as for minimizing Black heroism? Not *one* Black soldier was awarded a Medal of Honor for his service in World War II. It was not until the <i>1990s</i> that a DoD survey concluded that the military had, in fact, been racist. Looking over records, they awarded *seven* Black men with Medals of Honor. Fifty. Years. Later.<br /><br />"Ordinary" heroes?<br /><br />/soapboxWillownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-9568027464488348802010-01-13T05:39:29.685-08:002010-01-13T05:39:29.685-08:00I have many black heros many are African I'll ...I have many black heros many are African I'll admit, but many are also African American, Ameridian, Afro Brazillian e.t.c.<br /><br />I was curious because I couldn't find anything in my curriculum which spoke of black heros. And hollywood movies didn't help either. Zulu, Roots.<br /><br />As a child, many of them didn't make sense to me. I always wondered... well if they sauy we are aggressive and savage and this or that then shouldn't there be have been more uprisings, more rebellions?. how could we just have been heralded like sheep. something doesn't sound right.<br /><br />So I started digging. I found bits, I had to piece together.<br /><br />Why is black heroism minimised?<br /><br />Because a lot of black heroism undermines the stories of white superiority, benevolence or sense of do goody justice.<br /><br />How can you teach the heroism of the Jamaican Maroons without teaching the brutality of the en-slavers.<br /><br />How can you teach the achievements and literary prowess of black genuises when it involves the story of overcoming white adversity to get there.<br /><br />How can you teach the heroism of Sojourner Truth. When it relays the brutality of the white masses.<br /><br />How can you teach the bravery of a girl who had to be in a subservient relationship... who returns to her 'lovers' bed in the US from France when it reveals that her lover (the president) used her threatened her with the dispersal of her children. <br /><br />how do you uplift and celebrate bravery when it undermines your sense of superiority. <br /><br />The answer is: you do not.<br />That's why back heroism gets minimised.soulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50158703080873058772010-01-13T05:26:11.430-08:002010-01-13T05:26:11.430-08:00@AE... No more condescending than you have been ex...@AE... No more condescending than you have been except, you refuse to address your errs and never apologise when they are pointed out.<br /><br /><b>Willow said...<br />@ AE:<br />WTF? You seriously think this does not apply to Black women as well?!</b><br /><br />Again.. please enlighten us?.soulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57923052542831348592010-01-12T21:58:15.407-08:002010-01-12T21:58:15.407-08:00NancyP, you sound condescending to me. Do you real...NancyP, you sound condescending to me. Do you really think that you're telling RVCBard things she doesn't know? And is "racism" such a hard word for you to utter, such a hard reality for you to admit? Racism is what this blog is about, ya know??AEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16621940972431646722010-01-12T21:24:35.989-08:002010-01-12T21:24:35.989-08:00stuff white people do: minimize Black heroes even ...stuff white people do: minimize Black heroes <i>even on a thread dedicated to them</i><br /><br />Everyone, please read RVCBard's comment, 1/12 1:40 PM; and soul's comment, 1/12 2:14 PM.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43257026349176460572010-01-12T20:46:21.285-08:002010-01-12T20:46:21.285-08:00RVCBard, I am sorry that I didn't express myse...RVCBard, I am sorry that I didn't express myself well. Your grandfather was one of many extraordinary "ordinary heroes", one of the "Greatest Generation". I hope that he was not rebuffed if he tried to tell his story to the public. We should be hearing all the stories that they tell. <br /><br />A lot of WWII history has been told from the generals' viewpoints, and not from the non-coms' viewpoints. Vets have written memoirs, communities have sought out local vets to tell their stories - identifying the vets by word of mouth. Very few of these memoirs and speeches get wide recognition or distribution. Someone has to promote the vets' stories: a veterans' organization, an academic or freelance historian, a museum (acesmuseum.org), a filmmaker (Miracle at St. Annas).<br /><br />I have heard that many vets did not talk a lot about the war when they came home. Those vets may have been reluctant to bring up raw painful memories, or the vets simply were preoccupied by new concerns such as finding jobs and starting families. Some vets might have figured that they did their duty, and that they weren't the "real" heroes, the ones who didn't make it home.* The public interest shifted fairly quickly to the Cold War. Aging vets may have been more ready to talk about long-past events. <br /><br />*My father, who fought at D-Day and Battle of the Bulge, is one of those who saw himself as an average infantryman doing his duty, and a lucky survivor rather than a hero. He didn't start talking about the war until recently.NancyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91822103571542704872010-01-12T19:07:46.616-08:002010-01-12T19:07:46.616-08:00In situations where a Black person's heroic ac...In situations where a Black person's heroic act is covered in the media, especially the newspaper), is the person less likely to be identified as Black than if the article discussed a crime? <br /><br />I *seriously* can't recall my city's paper ever identifying a hero as Black--and I have known some of these people personally, so I'm pretty sure they are, in fact, Black--so I'm curious as to whether any of you have seen the same thing.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38912075042234584262010-01-12T18:43:53.912-08:002010-01-12T18:43:53.912-08:00Flo-jo, thanks. Derailing is "But it happens ...Flo-jo, thanks. Derailing is "But it happens to whites too!" not "Yeah, I know how that is." The news does treat all POC like this, so I don't even see how this is a "black" only thing. Saying "they do this to Asians too" in no way detracts from the fact that they do it to blacks. It <i>strengthens</i> the point that the news is white-driven and racist. I didn't think my comment would be taken so far out of context, seeing how other POC groups have already been mentioned.Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43244136960665493802010-01-12T17:56:10.406-08:002010-01-12T17:56:10.406-08:00@Cloudy - Looking at intent and effects, I stiill ...@Cloudy - Looking at intent and effects, I stiill don't see your comment as "oppression olympics" -- olympics require someone to claim their community's suffering is worse -- and you didn't do that. I don't even see it as derailing -- you didn't try to move the conversation to Asian suffering. All you did was say, as I see it, sympathetically, "I understand, it happens to us, too." Nor do I agree that just b/c Zara sees your comment as problematic you have to agree. Stuff like this drives me crazy about anti-racism communities - and I'm black.Flo-jonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46836585964932945212010-01-12T16:17:06.732-08:002010-01-12T16:17:06.732-08:00@ Soul,
"Keep the damn aid and pay a fair pri...@ Soul,<br />"Keep the damn aid and pay a fair price for our goods"...You bring up some other good points that are not understood in American culture.It seems that these marketing strategies are designed to make people feel good and create the illusion that they are participating in a good thing when really it's about corporate greed.<br />I was questioning the presentation and whether it was promoting cultural stereo types marketed specifically for white people....Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985247445476558468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-3526042234791880282010-01-12T16:13:46.670-08:002010-01-12T16:13:46.670-08:00@ Cloudy
I think your comment came off as deraili...@ Cloudy<br /><br />I think your comment came off as derailing.Lady Dani Mohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159035061078141833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-41857923168154320632010-01-12T16:12:11.490-08:002010-01-12T16:12:11.490-08:00That would be a good discussion on why other peopl...That would be a good discussion on why other people of color are not talked about in our American history, however, that is derailing and totally off topic. We are talking about Black heroism.<br /><br />@ Victoria<br /><br />I believe that White people are more effective in teaching Black histotry because the privilege can speak for the unprivilege and be taken more serious in most people's eyes. It's ass backwards because a person that doesn't go through a certain oppression should not be some expert on their experiences and have people listen more.Lady Dani Mohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159035061078141833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-27202633265591792122010-01-12T15:30:43.844-08:002010-01-12T15:30:43.844-08:00Cloudy,
What is it that matters here, intentions ...Cloudy,<br /><br />What is it that matters here, intentions or effects?Lutsennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32508422712300714602010-01-12T14:48:33.463-08:002010-01-12T14:48:33.463-08:00Cloudy,
Honestly, I didn't understand that you...Cloudy,<br />Honestly, I didn't understand that you were intending empathy until I read your latest comment.<br /><br />Instead, it sounded like you were saying "enough of this talk about black people! let's change the subject!" (Or, in Zara's interpretation, "Let's talk about who is even more oppressed")<br /><br />I'm guessing that this is also what Zara and RVCBard heard, thus their responses.<br /><br />I'm glad you clarified.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945385659698659077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64829614215303087332010-01-12T14:35:12.535-08:002010-01-12T14:35:12.535-08:00RVCBard
"And your not-too-subtle implication ...RVCBard<br />"And your not-too-subtle implication that Zara is seeing racism where it doesn't exist does not help."<br /><br />How else is "Oppression Olympics" used? Positively?<br /><br />Why was the first comment in this thread ok but not mine? Empathizing is not hijacking or derailing.Cloudynoreply@blogger.com