tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post7491449627101785357..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: ignore our holocaustsmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16017884472182238082009-06-30T16:46:46.115-07:002009-06-30T16:46:46.115-07:00Welcome, Tim, glad you're finding things here ...Welcome, Tim, glad you're finding things here a good supplement to your course materials. If you're interested in other such resources, you could send me an email (or I guess just keep reading the posts on this blog, many of which refer to other useful sources on whiteness).<br /><br />unmakingmacon at gmail dot commacon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-17289563475444330452009-06-30T16:27:51.071-07:002009-06-30T16:27:51.071-07:00I recently found this blog and have been "abs...I recently found this blog and have been "absorbing" it with great relish for the past three days or so. I am currently enrolled in a Race/Ethnicity course that does nothing to challenge the minds of the White students in the class. This situation is what led me here, though. Thank you for your courage.<br /><br />I want to respond to the previous comment... yes, race IS a social construct. However, it has real and tangible effects on the people categorized by this construct. It becomes real because people think it is—like borders. Also, it seems to me that the points addressed in this blog are geared toward particular American racial issues and White denial of race, all of which is relatively unique to the US and hard to disentangle... race discussions in this country are a hot mess.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10768575531444501555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-90834813302208077732009-06-22T15:40:42.531-07:002009-06-22T15:40:42.531-07:00First off, I am not saying that you do not bring u...First off, I am not saying that you do not bring up important points.<br /><br />But do you not see the irony in your words? As a white person, you are imploring all white people to understand all holocausts, besides the World War II holocaust. You proceed to name 2 Holocausts, both of which happened on American soil or while people were being transported to America.<br /><br />But as you have also argued (and I completely agree), race is just a social construction of reality. It is at heart a method of categorization, much like drawing borders between countries and defining differences between these people.<br /><br />So, I do not understand as while you call on white people to understand the holocausts that did not affect them (because as you have also noted from that book, Jews have become pretty assimilated with whites), you ignore holocausts that do not affect American people in general. You could just as easily have mentioned the Cambodian Holocaust, which differed from the World War II Holocaust only because it happened after the US exited Vietnam and not while the US or its allies were fighting. You could have mentioned the current holocausts that are occurring in places like Rwanda, or the "ethnic cleansings" that occurred in Eastern Europe.<br /><br />To have a true understanding of your place, you cannot focus on remedying the effects of a particular bias of yours, you have to work on remedying the bias itself. Becoming conscious of racial politics and ignoring global politics is essentially displaying the same bias, though it manifests itself in different ways. I am not claiming I have achieved this either, but basically, before you can teach what you know, you have to acknowledge what you do not know. Otherwise, it just does not seem like a genuine approach (at least to me).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-4750478547752872932008-05-30T14:53:00.000-07:002008-05-30T14:53:00.000-07:00Yes the professors I was referring to are Jewish....Yes the professors I was referring to are Jewish. I suppose I was mainly looking for sources that would help explain how the assimilation came to be, and whether it was out of necessity and so on. Thank you for mentioning Karen Brodkin which is more than I can say any of my professors have done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-7800485519157865172008-05-29T20:03:00.000-07:002008-05-29T20:03:00.000-07:00Anonymous, I'm not Jewish, so I don't know if I ca...Anonymous, I'm not Jewish, so I don't know if I can answer your question, and you're also not providing much evidence--DO so many Jewish people cling to the white label? Don't a lot instead cling to the Jewish label?<BR/><BR/>It's still the case that "white is right" in so many ways in America, so standing out as Jewish can seem less than "right," less favored, in many situations. But your question is so broad that it's hard to answer. What you're asking about depends on the situation.<BR/><BR/>As Karen Brodkin has shown in a book, How Did Jews Become White Folks?, many Jewish Americans became accepted as sort of provisionally white after WW II, an acceptance that made many fortunate recipients of what she calls one of the largest white affirmative action programs in U.S. history, the GI Bill, which many non-whites (and women) were effectively excluded from. "Clinging to whiteness" made sense in a material way at that point.<BR/><BR/>A lot of people who can pass as white, not just Jewish people, prefer to blend in, for a lot of reasons. I think it's still the case that wearing one's Jewishness openly can make a person feel noticeable, and a lot of people don't like that. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, a lot of entertainers are Jewish and most people wouldn't know it (as Adam Sandler pointed out in a song awhile back), and that assimilation into whiteness made them bigger stars. A lot of others, like Sandler himself, seem comfortable being openly Jewish, and they can make it as big stars too.<BR/><BR/>So it depends on the situation. There's more to say, but your question is so broad that it's hard to answer. Do you want to be any more specific about it?<BR/><BR/>By the way, are your professors Jewish, or ?macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05265182025648127257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-74546944897726702002008-05-29T15:41:00.000-07:002008-05-29T15:41:00.000-07:00I grew up with "You're either a Jew or you're whit...I grew up with "You're either a Jew or you're white" and "Why would you wanna be known as white?"<BR/><BR/>So my question is why do so many Jewish people cling to the white lable? <BR/><BR/>I need a different p.o.v. as my professors also don't consider themselves white.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43764586109169432102008-05-28T02:20:00.000-07:002008-05-28T02:20:00.000-07:00Unlike most 'capital H' holocaust describers you d...Unlike most 'capital H' holocaust describers you do include gypsies and homosexuals but you did forget disabled people/other 'abnormal according to Hitler' folks. Most people forget too that the total estimate is 9-12 million; 6 million only refers to the Jews.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-66255162359368418462008-04-22T07:50:00.000-07:002008-04-22T07:50:00.000-07:00I was going to comment here and then saw that you ...I was going to comment here and then saw that you brought up my favorite topic, the "Missing White Girl" syndrome. yay. <BR/><BR/>Followed trackbacks here and I really like what you're doing.<BR/><BR/>As for the Holocaust, I think it's become entirely too singular a focus and it does allow Americans to feel that, once again, they're better than other people. Those Germans did that, we never would (except we did, and even while that was going on we were interning Japanese-Americans). <BR/><BR/>And because of the huge psychological importance put on the Holocaust, the Jewish (and I am Jewish) community's fear of persecution is normalized, while black people are supposed to "get over it." You can't be a politician in this country and say that what Israel is doing is wrong, even though the Jewish population is so small. <BR/><BR/>as I noted, I am Jewish and I certainly want to make sure that what the Nazis did is remembered. but part of that Jewish identity and that awareness leads me to more sympathy with others who suffered similar or worse fates, and not this tendency to claim some exceptional level of persecution. <BR/><BR/>huge topic, little time to write about it. and I'm writing on very little sleep. thanks for the link, and the food for thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6156081333264681162008-04-16T20:21:00.000-07:002008-04-16T20:21:00.000-07:00Thanks, most-recent anonymous, that sounds like a ...Thanks, most-recent anonymous, that sounds like a workable suggestion for another post. I do agree that the connections white folks in America have to current holocausts are also different from the relations non-white Americans have with them. <BR/><BR/>Centuries of white supremacy led up to many conditions that still exist today, including almost exclusively white ownership and control of the corporate conglomerates that own the major media outlets, which "set the agenda" and thus largely determine what counts as noteworthy news for most people. I also have no doubt that a certain white or Eurocentric filter, or perceptual framework, determines what counts as news, and how that news is portrayed. The "Missing White Girl Syndrome," whereby the corporate media clearly care a LOT more about missing white girls and women (especially "pretty" ones) than they do about missing non-white girls, seems like another example, although I suppose that if newsmakers get called on it, they say that the audience itself is mostly white, and thus inclined to care more about, and watch more often, news outlets that sensationalize stories of missing white women and ignore those about missing non-white women.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52250515634521112252008-04-16T19:23:00.000-07:002008-04-16T19:23:00.000-07:00don't forget about the several holocausts that are...don't forget about the several holocausts that are happening right now. darfur, uganda, and the congo to name a few are all in a state of extreme distress right now due to civil unrest and government corruption, and that has resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people. <BR/>while there are campaigns such as save darfur that do try to relieve the situation in africa, these campaigns are almost like a passing fad, where people can buy a t-shirt where a fraction of the profit will go towards helping a black child, which can then be a consumer's good deed of the day. <BR/>in fact, many americans aren't even aware of the genocide and mass murder that are taking place right now in various parts of the world. it is so far away from us and we rarely even see it on tv.<BR/>why is that? because white people control the media. and again, white people don't want to be "disturbed" by what's going in the real world. if millions of americans were faced with the images of dying men, women, and children in africa, we would turn the tv off. ratings would drop. death that isn't heroic, dramatized, or filmed in Hollywood does not make for good ratings. <BR/>maybe you could do a post on how some white people in america (such as rupert murdoch) use their power as media tycoons to deceive the public and why they do this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32902389095882164802008-04-15T11:56:00.000-07:002008-04-15T11:56:00.000-07:00Actually yes, Deb. Good eye! I'll have to do that ...Actually yes, Deb. Good eye! I'll have to do that book some day for a Saturday Book Rec. Yes, Jensen is really good at keeping a firm grip on his moral compass.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43990396819446480902008-04-15T09:07:00.000-07:002008-04-15T09:07:00.000-07:00*breathing a sigh of relief* that there actually a...*breathing a sigh of relief* that there actually are some white people who see it, get it and are not afraid to say it. Thank you. Perhaps you can share your thoughts with Elizabeth Hasselbeck (sp) and Barbara Walters from The View.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71641215724946228172008-04-15T08:41:00.000-07:002008-04-15T08:41:00.000-07:00Thanks for the Jensen quote, Macon. I love him. He...Thanks for the Jensen quote, Macon. I love him. He <I>gets</I> it.<BR/><BR/>btw, is your moniker in homage to Macon Detornay? :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-66516536511219532032008-04-14T20:32:00.000-07:002008-04-14T20:32:00.000-07:00Thanks for your insights, John, and I think you're...Thanks for your insights, John, and I think you're right, especially about the psychological utility of "the Holocaust." I do think, though, that there is a relation between American holocausts and American white folks that differs from that between American holocausts and non-white Americans. <BR/><BR/>I believe you're right about what people in general like to think about bad news. As for me, I'm trying to pinpoint on this blog some general tendencies among a group of people who are generally unaware of their own group's tendencies. One bit of "bad news" for a lot of people of color in American is that white folks haven't spent much time yet dealing honestly and sincerely with what it means for them to be classified as white. It might also do themselves some good to think more about that.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-31958004564611698702008-04-14T12:33:00.000-07:002008-04-14T12:33:00.000-07:00I do a lot of presentations about what happened to...I do a lot of presentations about what happened to my parents during WWII. They were Polish Catholics who were put in concentration camps and forced to do slave labor. <BR/><BR/>About 6 Million Poles died during the war in the camps and elsewhere. Millions of other people died during that war also. I think the number is something like 50,000,000 altogether. (If you want to read what I said at my blog about all these numbers, you can find the piece at http://lightning-and-ashes.blogspot.com/2007/10/history-and-numbers.html)<BR/><BR/>When I mention these numbers, people pretty much can't believe it, and don't want to believe it.<BR/><BR/>Thinking about The Holocaust allows them the opportunity of not thinking about all the other deaths.<BR/><BR/>People don't want a lot of bad news in their lives. If given a choice between knowing that there were and are a lot of holocausts and knowing that there was one Holocaust, I think that most would say they are happy not knowing about all the evil that has been done in the world and all the evil that continues to be done in the world.John Guzlowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13052735138993479204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58957372551732456602008-04-14T08:21:00.000-07:002008-04-14T08:21:00.000-07:00Interesting. It should also be noted that many of...Interesting. It should also be noted that many of these "Indians" didn't just contract and die of disease by chance. During the French and Indian War (1754-1763), the British intentionally gave smallpox-contaminated blankets to the "Indians", resulting in an epidemic with a 50 percent mortality rate. As with other diseases, the mortality rate was higher for children (who would have ensured future "Indian" population growth) and the elderly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52420320651381229632008-04-13T07:23:00.000-07:002008-04-13T07:23:00.000-07:00Ya bit off a really big piece to chew on here Maco...Ya bit off a really big piece to chew on here Macon. Maybe if ya busted it up into two or three posts the taste wouldn't get lost.SagaciousHillbillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511441325695460501noreply@blogger.com