tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post7448009991409608383..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: fail to see how race and gender intersectmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-62114269518408034672012-04-23T17:43:44.571-07:002012-04-23T17:43:44.571-07:00It’s a long time since anyone added to this discus...It’s a long time since anyone added to this discussion, so maybe no one visits here any more, but in case they do, here’s my two cents worth.<br /><br />I've been wondering about what thesciencegirl said, and RVCBard agreed with, about being overlooked and treated as asexual by white men. I suspect that the white men's problem is not with finding WoC/black women unattractive, but with having a racially stereotyped, paranoid view of black MEN. Think about it: are not all black men athletic, violent criminals with 12 inch penises who view 'their' women as their property? Well, who on any level can compete with that? No, the two things more effective than a cold shower are a) the thought of waking up dead and b) the thought of the woman making 'unfavorable comparisons'.<br /><br />To back my hunch: Exhibit A - the rapacious plantation owner. The average plantation owner seems to have had no problems with seeing black women as sexually attractive, while at the same time he did not have to worry (much) about revenge from black men because he (usually) had them under his power, and he did not have to worry about comparisons because he didn't care what the women thought anyway.<br /><br />In many ways I am making a hugely discouraging argument here, in that I am almost completely sidelining women in the equation, suggesting to black women that the case is worse than ‘disadvantage because of white perceptions of your race’ but rather ‘disadvantage because of white perceptions of the men of your race’. Like Feminism never happened. On the plus side, you probably are considered attractive by white men after all...and they do now care about your opinions on their size - yes, two hundred years of progress has brought us this far.<br /><br />Incidentally, I'm far from necessarily talking about conscious thoughts here, in case you are thinking "but the white guys I know don't think like this!" Rather I'm talking about deeply ingrained stereotypes and the gut instincts they provoke. Nor, I should make clear, am I saying only white men do this kind of math; I reckon most men of all races do it (and indeed women and other genders do an equivalent) but the prevailing culture and its fears and myths leads them to factor in different variables.<br /><br />Can anything be done? Well, the conscious can usually beat the subconscious, in a marathon if not in a sprint, so the situation is far from hopeless if enough education gets out there.Salisburyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04742090101004153105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58165416165676700172010-01-31T20:16:19.908-08:002010-01-31T20:16:19.908-08:00M.Gibbson said:
"In white peoples eyes Serena...M.Gibbson said:<br />"In white peoples eyes Serena Williams is not just considered unattractive, But she is considered abhorrent.White males liken her to a man- or a primate".<br /><br />ESPN put her on their cover and she was in the Sports Illustrated swim suit issue.If she is as unattractive and abhorrent as you say she is perceived I'm not sure how she would end up modeling for magazines mostly read by White men.<br />I do get what you are saying it's just that particular example didn't fit for me.I think she is attractive.<br /><br />Yes their is a double standard out their and your other examples were right on.White people are uncomfortable when POC are successful in life.I think this is presidents Obama's case.A lot of Democrats have "headed for the hills" as Obama mentioned in his State of the Union address and that's because a lot of Democrats in their mostly White districts are uncomfortable to come out and support what he needs to get passed.For some whites the idea of a Black man running things drives them bonkers.The truth that nobody wants to talk about is that were not in a "post racial era" and race is why nothing is getting done.Democrats have majority's in both house and senate and yes the Republicans are obstructionists but we don't need them to get this shit passed.I'm afraid to think that if Obama was white we'd have healthcare passed by now.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985247445476558468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-34280259196736777732010-01-31T19:01:02.072-08:002010-01-31T19:01:02.072-08:00In white people's eyes Serena Williams is not ...In white people's eyes Serena Williams is not just considered unattractive, but she is considered abhorrent. White males liken her to either a man- or a primate. White males can’t relate to her because of her skin tone- and her physique. (butt way too big) Michelle Obama has suffered the same critiques. It doesn't matter what Serena wears on the court- or how many tournaments she wins. It doesn't matter how graceful/intelligent Michelle is, she just doesn't measure up to white expectations. <br /><br />As a matter of fact every time Serena beats a thin, blond- delicate white female tennis player, white men get angry. A woman of color won the Miss America pageant recently and again...White males got angry. "why do I feel like I'm suddenly a minority in this country?? one asked. http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2010-01-30-miss-america_N.htm<br /><br />Miss America 2010 Wasn't All That in 2002<br />http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/31/miss-america-2010-caressa-cameron-high-school-photo/<br />Its amazing to me how hostile some whites have become to women of color. Not seeing them as fully human makes it easy for whites to liken them to monkeys or other non-human entities. <br /><br />The Huffington post was more blatant in its comparisons between white and black beauty: <br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/29/australian-open-hotties-w_n_430215.html <br />Australian Open Hotties: Who's The Hottest Lady?<br />Comments like these abound: She had a few black men in her corner yes, but the tide was overwhelmingly sided against her. “All the ladies, minus the Williams sisters, are pretty cute to very hot. The Williams girls look too much like Lebron James for my taste. I wish they could be more feminine athletes, but with guns and shoulders like that, i cant call either hot or cute.”<br /><br />Whites wonder why blacks are angry all the time. They don’t know what it’s like to be denied your humanity on a constant basis. One way whites found out was from the exercises of Jane Elliot. You want to see some white people get mad? Ohh boy! Only then do they get a taste of what it feels like to be deprived of your rights and your humanity every day of your life. <br /><br />http://newsreel.org/transcripts/essenblue.htm <br />Look at how she was able to lower the self-esteem of grown folks by just pointing out a difference in the color of their eyes. When she did it to white children the ones affected had lower test scores and acted out violently. I saw it done on Oprah too, and the effects were the same. Intelligent grown-assed Whites questioned their worth based on the color of their eyes. Some got very very very angry and resentful towards the ones in power.<br /><br />Jane Elliot's A Class Divided <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCjDxAwfXV0 <br />By treating whites in the same manner whites treat blacks you can achieve the same esteem-lowering effect. When she said blue-eyed are smarter than brown-eyed people it got soo quiet in that class. Imagine years of stigmatizing skin color and how that might affect a people. Wouldn't they act out as well? Wouldn’t you be angry too? The white kids begin to internalize that belief. “He called me brown-eyes and I hit him in the gut!”<br /><br />Blue Eyed part 10 of 10<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krEydYiDC1E <br /><br />John Howard Griffin got a small taste of the black experience but he took the extreme road to get it.<br />http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-black-like-me/themes.html<br />"Griffin often speaks about the depression, loneliness, and anger that he felt while he was a black man. As his time wears on, he cannot stand the face that stares back at him in the mirror. Because of this skin, he cannot seek advancement. As an educated man who has all the right credentials, he can't even get a job as a bookkeeper. All doors are closed to him. The feeling of sickness and loneliness overwhelms him." <br /><br />Its a damn shame whites have to take such drastic measures just to empathize with black people.M. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412079628160690200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-25576034509876425102010-01-31T16:09:38.907-08:002010-01-31T16:09:38.907-08:00I'm a black woman and do not care what people ...I'm a black woman and do not care what people think of my "personality". Personality can be controlled, race cannot. Do I find most black women (from all over) to be angry and bitchy? Yes. Do I find most white women to be condescending and bitchy? Yes. Do I find most Asian women to be condescending, colorist and bitchy? Yes. I, do however seek out friendships with women of all races with decent personalities; they do exist. That, however doesn't negate the fact that most women I interact with from each race exhibit the negative characteristics I mentioned.equal opportunistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58521060953761832009-10-20T07:19:25.492-07:002009-10-20T07:19:25.492-07:00I promptly gave her back her child and asked her d...<b>I promptly gave her back her child and asked her do people after wonder if she is the nanny since the child is half hispanic and has dark hair, brown eyes, and tanned skin.</b><br /><br />This brings up an aspect of colorism/racism that I see happening on both sides, living in a very culturally diverse place.<br /><br />I notice that when black or darker-skinned women have white or much lighter-skinned children, people assume that the woman is the nanny. Conversely, when a lighter-skinned or white woman has a black or darker-skinned child, people assume the child is adopted. <br /><br />My mother is much darker-skinned than I am and has tightly-curled black hair. When I was a little kid, this happened on occasion: people would assume she was being paid to watch me, and not my mother.Pistolinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-34316324763845026482009-10-20T05:09:51.611-07:002009-10-20T05:09:51.611-07:00Wait, what? Y'all get pushed off sidewalks? ...Wait, what? Y'all get pushed off sidewalks? Seriously?<br /><br />Also, yeah, I reconsidered the word "romantic" the minute I hit Publish, but it was a bit late to change it then.bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-40386862501308830262009-10-20T04:22:22.778-07:002009-10-20T04:22:22.778-07:00To RVCBard and thesciencegirl:
I'm a longtime...To RVCBard and thesciencegirl:<br /><br />I'm a longtime lurker, coming briefly out of hiding to say: Thank you thank you thank you for these last two comments. As a black woman who has always lived with and been friends with mostly white people, I resonate fully with your remarks, with the experience of having eyes not see me, being pushed off the sidewalk, desexualized or hypersexualized. Your words have broken through my loneliness, reassured me that I'm not imagining it, and framed the issue in a way that gives me some measure of peace.In Plain Sightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33042407682339037982009-10-20T04:04:25.695-07:002009-10-20T04:04:25.695-07:00It seems white men consider Asian women potential ...<b>It seems white men consider Asian women potential romantic partners (as was also observed in the "date Asian women more than Asian men" thread), but not black women.</b><br /><br />This is true for the most part, the majority of white men who approached me were not looking for relationships, but rather sexual experiences. <br /><br />----------<br /><br /><b>You're honestly going to assert that the "angry woman" is just as prevalent amongst white women as amongst black women?!?!? Come on.</b><br /><br />Yes I've met many angry white women. Their anger might stem from a different place than "black women anger", but it is still there and exists. Of course you used the Maury show to prove black women are crazy psychos. Again I can't take that seriously.<br /><br /><b>So what I'm hearing is that the Angry Black Woman stereotype just arose out of the air and has absolutely no truth value whatsoever?</b><br /><br />No the media has helped reflect that by limiting black people to certain roles. There is no truth in the stereotype though. <br /><br /><b>Maybe you're right. I guess the stereotype of the black single woman with loads of children by different fathers is wrong too.</b><br /><br />Yes it is. If I were to look at my family, the majority of black women were married with kids and only had one "baby daddy", and he was usually their husband. <br /><br />------------<br /><br /><b>Well, since all groups except straight white christian males are "oppressed", does that mean that straight white christian males are the only ones who can ever be held responsible for anything?</b><br /><br />What does oppression have to do with being held responsible. You can be oppressed and follow the law, go to work, raise your family, and pay taxes. The point you are bringing up has nothing to do with anything, maybe you are stereotyping.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887279569489057828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33162853048432227642009-10-20T03:53:54.475-07:002009-10-20T03:53:54.475-07:00Perhaps you should be peeved at your fellow black ...<b>Perhaps you should be peeved at your fellow black females who perpetuate this stereotype, not the white males who simply notice its' prevalence.</b><br /><br />So because some perpetuate a stereotype, I am supposed to combat this stereotype. I don't expect white people to account for all the "trash" out there in their racial group, why should I?<br /><br />You are using Maury to reflect all black people. I can't even talk rationally to you. I don't use "My Big Redneck Wedding" on CMT to reflect all white people.<br /><br /><br />---------------<br /><br /><b>I felt disgusted because he didn't see me as a woman but a "black" woman.</b><br /><br />I had this growing up the majority of my life, I was either asexual or some weird experiment. I used to have men come up to me and think it was a pick up line to say "You're pretty for a black girl" or "I've never been with a black girl before" like I was supposed to drop my pants and get busy with these men because I was not the "normal" black they assumed black women are.<br /><br />Then you have the white women who feel you are their mammy. My husband's best friend is married to a woman like this. She always wants to confide in me and ask me to do stuff for her like we are friends. I don't even like her. I was with her at a mall, and I was playing with her daughter, she then said someone will mistake me as her nanny. I promptly gave her back her child and asked her do people after wonder if she is the nanny since the child is half hispanic and has dark hair, brown eyes, and tanned skin. Then there are the women who deem you less attractive than they are because they are white, and if a man, in particular a white man shows any interest in you, especially over them, they give you the cold shoulder or treat you as if you stole their man.<br /><br />-----------<br /><br /><b>I remember vividly learning several years ago in a history class that it was legal for a white man to marry a black woman before it was legal for a white woman to marry a black man. It's a dynamic I still mull over, and at the time I thought, "Yuck."</b><br /><br />The case of Loving v. Virginia was about a black woman and white man, but it wasn't legal necessarily for white men and black women to marry prior to that. It was just a common knowledge that white men could do whatever they wanted to black women and there was no recourse. <a href="http://siditty.blogspot.com/2008/06/history-of-miscegenation.html" rel="nofollow">Anti-miscegenation laws</a> were enacted to keep white men away from black women, not black men away from white women. Back then lineage was attributed to the father, not the mother, so white men having sex with a black woman and producing offspring could create more "freed" people than vice versa. The laws were later changed to fix this so that lineage was attributed to the mother rather than the father.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887279569489057828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-44823537309751601752009-10-19T22:05:56.537-07:002009-10-19T22:05:56.537-07:00I've never dealt with the mammy situation. Yet...I've never dealt with the mammy situation. Yet, as a teacher, I'm sure it's come up subconsciously as though I'm just a natural with children or teens. <br /><br />Whereas, the whore perception I've seen and dealt with a lot . As a fair-complected black woman, I'm approached frequently by men of all races, especially white, Hispanic, and black. I'm deemed safely approachable (according to the Western standard of beauty) and thus, I'm sexually approachable. I've dealt with crazy comments from some men wanting to know what it's like to sleep with a black woman and whether or not my lighter-complexion will make a difference or not *rolls eyes*. <br /><br />But, I don't know what's worse: the sexism felt by those in my racial background or those outside of my racial background.honeybrown1976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22703872465903252392009-10-19T21:35:20.486-07:002009-10-19T21:35:20.486-07:00I would say that the predominant feeling I get fro...<i>I would say that the predominant feeling I get from white men is that they do not really view me as a woman.</i><br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br /><i>I feel this most acutely in my very white neighborhood. I feel it when I am walking down my street and am pushed off the sidewalk because others refuse to share their space with me.</i><br /><br />You get this too?<br /><br /><i>I feel it as eyes pass over me and through me and rest on every other woman in the room. I feel it when my neighbors ignore me, and when my friends talk about hot women in front of me. <b>I feel that they may see me as a person, but never as a woman.</b> I am not a potential girlfriend, date, or mate.</i><br /><br />I get hit on by older men when I get hit on at all. I also seem to be a psycho magnet.<br /><br /><i>My friends and classmates treat me differently than the average Joe on the street, I think because they have the opportunity to know me as a person. In this way we can become friends, and they can even flirt with me. But they will never go beyond that. They would be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me. I should be asexual, after all.</i><br /><br />I'm fortunate in that I'm attracted to several genders, but that doesn't make it easier.<br /><br /><i>I am a woman of color, in many of their eyes, a black woman. And well, when have black women ever been the prize?</i><br /><br />Only in the new Star Trek movie and the Merlin series. But the backlash against those women was fucking harsh.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71901527722645156192009-10-19T15:51:04.140-07:002009-10-19T15:51:04.140-07:00I'm not sure that there is a clear demarcation...I'm not sure that there is a clear demarcation between gendered racism and racialized sexism -- I guess it's all a mish-mash and sometimes the balance tips more one way than the other. If I thought hard enough, I could probably think of examples where my gender or my race were clearly predominating the discrimination I was experiencing. But that's sort of besides the point. The point being: as a woman of color, I am always simultaneously a woman and a person of color, and am operating in a sphere that overlaps with but is not wholly contained by others who share just my race or just my gender.<br /><br />Others have talked about the mammy or whore dichotomy often encountered by black women. I can relate. I'm a mixed race woman of primarily black and Italian-American descent, and I often find that I am either invisible and not considered truly female, or I am hyper-sexualized and treated like purely a sex object. I think that the stereotypes of black women (or whatever race people perceive me to be based on my appearance) affect the sexism that I experience such that it is clearly distinct from the sexism experienced by white women. In this way, it is racialized sexism.<br /><br />I would say that the predominant feeling I get from white men is that they do not really view me as a woman. If I may share some thoughts I blogged on this very topic: <br /><br />Sometimes I feel like an invisible woman. It has been clear to me since childhood that I do not fit the ideal of white beauty upheld in this country. I am too dark. My hair is too curly, too big. I am too fat. My nose is too big. And that's alright, because how many women fit that ideal anyway? But in the eyes of some (white) men, it is clear that I am not only not the ideal women, but perhaps not a woman at all. I feel this most acutely in my very white neighborhood. I feel it when I am walking down my street and am pushed off the sidewalk because others refuse to share their space with me. I feel it as eyes pass over me and through me and rest on every other woman in the room. I feel it when my neighbors ignore me, and when my friends talk about hot women in front of me. I feel that they may see me as a person, but never as a woman. I am not a potential girlfriend, date, or mate. My friends and classmates treat me differently than the average Joe on the street, I think because they have the opportunity to know me as a person. In this way we can become friends, and they can even flirt with me. But they will never go beyond that. They would be astonished to know that their flirtations could incite hope in me. I should be asexual, after all. I am a woman of color, in many of their eyes, a black woman. And well, when have black women ever been the prize?nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76461411019813888862009-10-19T15:30:23.540-07:002009-10-19T15:30:23.540-07:00Restructure: yes, I think the term gendered racism...Restructure: yes, I think the term gendered racism makes sense. When I typed out "sexualized racism," I thought "ugh, that's not exactly what I mean," but I sort of blanked on how else to say it.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-51738264732286762552009-10-19T15:20:49.620-07:002009-10-19T15:20:49.620-07:00fromthetropics -- sorry I missed your initial ques...fromthetropics -- sorry I missed your initial question! But I'm glad to see it has prompted this interesting discussion. I'm going back to read all of the comments now.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-39237749076790880152009-10-18T09:22:15.145-07:002009-10-18T09:22:15.145-07:00>And just to be clear, I certainly didn't m...>And just to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to imply that this is unique or specific to Arab/Muslim countries<br /><br />@Jillian - Gotcha. (Not to worry. Coz the guy I described made *at least* 2 other racially prejudiced comments in the 3 days or so that I knew him, so...yeah, I think he may have some subconscious habit of doing so, since I wouldn't describe him as 'racist' by any stretch.)<br /><br />>More strongly, and more equally.<br /><br />@bluey512 - That (and the ensuing explanation) makes a LOT of sense to me. <br /><br />Btw, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone (macon, RVCBard, the commenters and readers) for 'laying it bare', as Pistolina said, with the stories you shared and letting me share. We didn't seem to get too far beyond 'scumbag-ism' and 'yuck', but I personally find the sharing of stories and discussion really helpful in 'de-yucking' the memories (which seems to be the best alternative to the impossibility of erasing them). Thank you.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-28730995710355069412009-10-16T10:42:36.710-07:002009-10-16T10:42:36.710-07:00Jillian, that's a good distinction to make. I...Jillian, that's a good distinction to make. I suppose that's another reason you couldn't say your experience was "sexualized racism" - unless, I suppose, you were using the term "racism" in that sort of colloquial, non-sociological way that just means "biased racially."bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-5606936282175251452009-10-16T10:00:13.397-07:002009-10-16T10:00:13.397-07:00@bluey512 -
Yes, I see it as more of the same, bu...@bluey512 -<br /><br />Yes, I see it as more of the same, but with a bit of a racial (not racist) twist. It IS racial, because I know that I experience worse treatment for being white, or foreign, or American, but it's not racist, because for most intents and purposes, I have privilege just by being in the country I'm in (I do have some feelings about the level of privilege a young, non-wealthy white woman really has in say, a very wealthy and patriarchical country like Saudi Arabia, but that's another can of worms).Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792137126898623243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26892227905402725542009-10-16T09:47:23.463-07:002009-10-16T09:47:23.463-07:00"As in, when it’s someone at the intersection..."As in, when it’s someone at the intersection, they experience it much more strongly, is that right?"<br /><br />More strongly, and more equally.<br /><br />I'm not at all sure I'm right about this, I'm just trying to explore the terms. They both seem to imply that what's happening is primarily one thing, influenced by the other. So "racialized sexism" would be primarily sexism, but in kind of a racial way, and "sexualized racism" would be primarily racism, with overtones of sexism.<br /><br />Which term you use may depend on your perspective. For example, Jillian is calling her experiences with Arab men "racialized sexism." Perhaps this is because as a white woman from the US (I'm pretty sure?), she likely has much more experience with sexism than with racism. So perhaps these encounters with Arab men seem like more of the same to her... only with a racial aspect. (Jillian, does that sound accurate?)<br /><br />I noticed something very similar in my own immediate response to RVCBard's last post, actually. My tendency as a white woman was to view her example as a sexist event, at least in part because if I had been in her shoes, that's exactly what it would have been. I found it was extremely easy to imagine the issue as primarily sexism, with some racism involved because she's black, but still primarily sexism, although of course that's not how she herself defined it.<br /><br />I can certainly see how, if you get a full dose of both racism and sexism, or if they intermingle to form something else, you might not have a practical use for either term.<br /><br />Or maybe you could tie the terms to the intent of the perpetrator of racism/sexism. But that's hard to do, because telepathy is in short supply.bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-13117313418751032822009-10-16T07:35:25.000-07:002009-10-16T07:35:25.000-07:00@fromthetropics
Thank you. And just to be clear,...@fromthetropics<br /><br />Thank you. And just to be clear, I certainly didn't mean to imply that this is unique or specific to Arab/Muslim countries; I used those terms to explain the country I was in without naming it (and having traveled a lot in the region and had wildly varying experiences from country to country, I know that it's not the same across the board).<br /><br />"--It devalues WoC and interprets our “otherness” as “asking for it” so that it is socially acceptable for our bodies to be seen as the playgrounds and our persons as the playthings of white men.--"<br /><br />I think that does and can apply to white women in foreign countries. Of course, there are all kinds of white women who go abroad, and there are plenty who do so with racist attitudes of their own. But I do believe that their experiences (my experience) can be called racialized sexism (though not sexualized racism).Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792137126898623243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53755986269140869812009-10-16T07:21:35.426-07:002009-10-16T07:21:35.426-07:00(cont'd) Also, Jillian’s story has reminded me...(cont'd) Also, Jillian’s story has reminded me of another type of gendered racism that I just had to vent about and get out of my system. Depending on how the story about sexual harassment in developing countries is shared, most of the time I have nothing but sympathy or concern for the foreigner, but at other times it feels deeply insulting. Here’s a story where it was insulting (racist). A white guy had heard about the sexual harassment that happens in Indonesia because his brother had lived there as an exchange student. He mocked Indonesians for this. So I countered, “But many men would be doing the same in Australia if laws against sexual harassment weren’t so tough.” (Note: Most other countries don’t have rule of law.) He responded with a laugh saying, “Uh, no. We don’t do that here (in Australia) because we’re more respectful of women.” Suddenly he brought to naught a few decades worth of work by feminists in Western countries. Suddenly white or Western men are simply more virtuous than other men because they just are. It’s in their genes or something, or so he seemed to think. Suddenly Indonesian men are assumed to be generally morally lower than Australian men. Never mind the fact that most of the Indonesian men I meet are respectful of women. In his eyes Indonesians are simply morally lower and laughable. Ugh. Again, this is ‘gendered racism’ yes? <br /><br />--So maybe terms like "sexualized racism" or "racialized sexism" can only be applied when talking about who aren't at an intersection of race and gender, as odd as that seems.--<br /><br />Interesting. Bluey512, I think I get what you mean. As in, when it’s someone at the intersection, they experience it much more strongly, is that right?fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-5852621061605979302009-10-16T07:21:13.051-07:002009-10-16T07:21:13.051-07:00Thanks guys for the discussion about derailing. He...Thanks guys for the discussion about derailing. Heck, I didn’t realize I was getting distracted from focusing on some really good points being made by others and helping derail my own post. Anyway, now back to the topic. <br /><br />--I daresay that your partner’s friends who see you as an Indonesian woman rather than a person would, if it didn’t work out, likely say (or at least think) “Well, he can just get another one,” rather than appreciate the significance of your impact on his life as an individual.--<br /><br />Wow. Yeah, Liriel, that’s a good way to put it. Makes a lot of sense. <br /><br />--It devalues WoC and interprets our “otherness” as “asking for it” so that it is socially acceptable for our bodies to be seen as the playgrounds and our persons as the playthings of white men.--<br /><br />I wonder if that applies to white women who go abroad, like Jillian. <br /><br />Interestingly, I’ve also experienced the same stereotype applied in the opposite way. There’s been a few occasions when I needed to talk to single white men in Indonesia due to my work. There was one who I even disliked because he stereotypes pocs a lot. But on a couple of occasions, when I approached them, somehow they reacted to me as though I was just another Indonesian woman looking for a white guy (even when I disliked the guy!). That was annoying, though there was no strong yuck feeling involved, phew. Perhaps this is what’s called ‘gendered racism’ – viewing the Other through a stereotyped lens specific to the gender of that person? <br /><br />@Jillian – the story about the near rape is horrible. And the bad news is, it’s not an Arab thing, or a Middle Eastern thing. It happens in China too, and Indonesia. It’s ridiculous how widespread it is. I heard of a Korean exchange student to Indonesia who left without completing her studies because of a very similar experience to yours. Obviously she was traumatized. This is why I do not walk around alone even in my own neighborhood in broad daylight. Not because it’s a religious requirement, but it’s simply neither safe nor pleasing on the ears. (Once you know how to avoid it, you can live harassment free most of the time, at least in Indonesia.) I’m sure it happens more to foreign women because they seem that much more ‘Other’ (objectified), stand out more, and perhaps seem more unsuspecting (e.g. local women know which areas to avoid – many of us are made aware of this through unpleasant experiences from a young age).fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52464253996578968232009-10-16T05:10:53.381-07:002009-10-16T05:10:53.381-07:00ru wrote,
So what you're *still* saying is:
...ru wrote, <br /><br /><i>So what you're *still* saying is:<br />"It doesn't matter to me how much pain POC go through -- guest posters, regular commenters, new readers, or lurkers -- as long as the WHITE FOLKS learn something."<br /><br />Good to know.</i><br /><br />Even though that's what you're hearing, that's not what I'm trying to say. Note that in what you quoted from me, I wrote, "I'm trying to undo habitual White attitudes and behaviors too . . . " That's "too," as in "also" -- I'm trying to balance these things. And if you read the above comments more closely, and this blog in general, you'd very likely gather that when it comes to racism, a primary motivation here for me is concern for the feelings of POC, as well as for the injustice and misery they often suffer because of ongoing, de facto white supremacy.<br /><br /><i>Now look at OneSTD's comments here.<br />See anything familiar?</i><br /><br />Yes, of course I do. Again, please read my comments in this thread, and the other threads in question -- if you do, I think you'll gather that I already know what you're pointing out to me in your analysis of that person's comments. At any rate, thank you for your time and effort.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57864397466876811472009-10-16T04:57:08.318-07:002009-10-16T04:57:08.318-07:00Actually, my bad.
Catching up on my reading here,...Actually, my bad.<br /><br />Catching up on my reading here, I see that you're already familiar with "Derailing for Dummies".<br /><br />So instead, for an additional characterization of what OneSTD was doing, permit me to quote you back to yourself:<br /><br />"That in itself is a common white tendency -- to demand further evidence of racism, rather than crediting a person who's clearly experienced many instances of said form of racism with an experienced and informed perspective."<br /><br />Now look at OneSTD's comments here.<br />See anything familiar?runoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71266165360510389592009-10-16T04:56:34.682-07:002009-10-16T04:56:34.682-07:00Dear Blog Host:
"Not to disagree, but (you k...Dear Blog Host:<br /><br />"Not to disagree, but (you know how much us white folks love our buts!), I'm trying to undo habitual White attitudes and behaviors too, in the posts themselves, which I post and write in the hopes that a lot of BOTH non-white and white people will read them, and in the comment sections, where I hope white people unfamiliar with thinking about their whiteness, and/or with taking part in racial dialogues, will jump in."<br /><br />So what you're *still* saying is:<br />"It doesn't matter to me how much pain POC go through -- guest posters, regular commenters, new readers, or lurkers -- as long as the WHITE FOLKS learn something."<br /><br />Good to know.<br /><br />As to adjudging whether or not your OneSTDV commenter -- whom I would love to nickname OneSTD since his attitude is just that odious -- was sincere?<br /><br />This may help you:<br />www.derailingfordummies.comrunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63860705638515546672009-10-15T19:54:37.369-07:002009-10-15T19:54:37.369-07:00Yes, thank you Pistolina, an FAQ is a good idea. I...Yes, thank you Pistolina, an FAQ is a good idea. I don't know where to put on in Blogger, but I could just make it a post, and then send the sorts of commenters we're talking about to it.<br /><br /><i>But I think there might be a certain heightened level of respect for the guest posters who get up there and lay bare details of their personal experiences compared to when you or another white person who might be talking about things that affect you more indirectly (or not at all) post.</i><br /><br />Respect from . . . ? If you mean from readers, no, I see LESS respect for guest posters from the kinds of commenters we're talking about here. It's that common white tendency to question the knowledge and authority of non-white people. Again. But if you mean that guest posters deserve more respect in these matters from me as a moderator of comments than I grant myself in the comment moderation for my own posts, then yes, I agree (not that I don't respect myself, but I trust you can see what I'm getting at).macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.com