tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post6699774639461574620..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: laugh at deadpan comediansmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70395880156100553172010-03-27T07:03:48.289-07:002010-03-27T07:03:48.289-07:00I am a latino stand up comic from la and my comedy...I am a latino stand up comic from la and my comedy is inspired by comics like demitri martin mitch hedberg and steven wright one liners . and when i do the latino crowds they kind of look at me like they dont understand wut the hell im tryng to do and it takes them at least 5 minutes to kind of get into the grove of wut im tryng to do because most people are really closed minded and dont really know that theres more to comedy then just dane cooks and georg lopez<br />you can google my name Martin RizoMartin Rizonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-84096034350550114762009-02-18T12:29:00.000-08:002009-02-18T12:29:00.000-08:00kathy, I explain a good deal of what I got from Ta...kathy, I explain a good deal of what I got from Takaki's book in <A HREF="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/05/restrain-themselves.html" REL="nofollow">this post</A> (if you have comments about that post, please make them there). His title, <I>Iron Cages</I>, encapsulates with an apt metaphor the particularly white American restraint that I've been talking about.<BR/><BR/>I think no1kstate summarizes the whole inheritance thing well. In the original post, a "racial inheritance" is wondered about right after a review of history, history that results in a sort of cultural inheritance, and history of the sort that's expanded upon in the other post that I'm linking to for Kathy.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21008780415349420642009-02-18T11:59:00.000-08:002009-02-18T11:59:00.000-08:00I understood you Kathy. We have to allow people th...I understood you Kathy. We have to allow people the freedom to find their way. <I>Especially</I> if what they're asking/saying isn't racist, just perceived to be so by people who, if I may, are seemingly determined to show Macon in a bad light.<BR/><BR/>For example, we read the whole "inheritance" thing, I didn't take it to mean actual DNA, but more of a cultural/heritage inheritance. You know?Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22350338094604438422009-02-18T11:45:00.000-08:002009-02-18T11:45:00.000-08:00"wanting to learn how to be racist is an ungoing s..."wanting to learn how to be racist is an ungoing struggle" this should have read, wanting to learn how to be an "anti-racist"vanishing pointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00162872388532519328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-14142344136917466232009-02-18T11:11:00.000-08:002009-02-18T11:11:00.000-08:00"(Of course, I don't think you would think that li..."(Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)""<BR/>The way I intrepret R's statement is that Macon D would not want to be perceived (literaly) as trying to NOT be a racist, as opposed to be trying to be an "anti-racist". What I think is that as white people try to unravel themselves and the racist thoughts, feelings, and ideas they have been taught and absorbed, the struggle between not wanting to be racist or sounding racist, and the wanting to learn how to be racist is an ungoing struggle, yet, Macon D refuses to own the statement that he makes about "inheriting" cerebral deadpan comedy, in addition, Macon D cites a book referring to the white identity development as one of physical retraint. That is confusing to me, maybe Macon D, you could explain this more?vanishing pointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00162872388532519328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-59368826231037504592009-02-18T10:30:00.000-08:002009-02-18T10:30:00.000-08:00Oh good lord, Restructure, what a load of self imp...Oh good lord, Restructure, what a load of self important, self justifying and tedious crap. You just don't want to admit that you made a mistake upthread, do you? That's a rhetorical question, just like your know-it-all ones clearly are. It's obvious as I read this blog that Macon's is trying to deconstruct what white people think. He's often blogging against white control of meaning (sorry if that's speaking too much for you Macon), not repeating it. He continually takes other points of view into account and does not assume that white perspective is universal. To claim that he sees white thinking as universal is ridiculous to any fairminded reader of this blog. Of course that "means" white in that sentence you qouted. But of course also, that doesn't automatically mean non-white perspectives weren't there too and that they were different! Does that have to be spelled out for you? Wait, I guess so, considering the kind of mistake you made upthread.<BR/><BR/>(Ugh, getting tedious. Anywho, Sorry for feeding trolls, but this just got too ridick!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-5064868964771656142009-02-18T08:57:00.000-08:002009-02-18T08:57:00.000-08:00Macon D, And "means" in your sentence would mean "...Macon D, <BR/><BR/><I>And "means" in your sentence would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be."</I><BR/><BR/>This is one of the main systematic problems with your blog. I <A HREF="http://restructure.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/discussing-%E2%80%9Cwhite-identity%E2%80%9D-out-of-context-perpetuates-racism/" REL="nofollow">criticized this</A> on my blog, but I guess if I don't name you specifically, you don't perceive it as a criticism of your blog.<BR/><BR/>Now that I re-read my old blog post, it isn't as clear as I had originally thought. Another way of thinking of it is that in your mind, "meaning" is determined by "what white people think". Again, your blog portrays what white people think as what is universally true.<BR/><BR/>For example, you say that "means" would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be." However, what you are saying implicitly is that "means" means "was figured as by whites" or "was assumed to be by whites." You are saying that universal meaning is meaning according to whites, and the perspectives of people of colour (e.g. that we are constantly restraining ourselves because we feel like we are being scrutinized by whites) don't contribute to meaning.<BR/><BR/>This problem also appears in <A HREF="http://contexts.org/socimages/2008/10/03/race-class-and-gender-in-tv-dinners-what-else/" REL="nofollow">Sociological Images » RACE, CLASS, AND GENDER IN TV DINNERS (WHAT ELSE!)</A>, where she says, "the working-class masculinity is implicitly white." In her worldview, "meaning" is "meaning according to whites."<BR/><BR/>I commented on that post, saying, "Working-class masculinity is NOT implicitly white; white people THINK implicitly that working class males are white."<BR/><BR/>Do you see the distinction? Do you see how the distinction is important?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-84055834526976720052009-02-17T13:30:00.000-08:002009-02-17T13:30:00.000-08:00are you saying that whiteness means more cerebral ...<I>are you saying that whiteness means more cerebral and more physically restrained in comparison to non-white identity, or are you saying that the idea of whiteness as more cerebral and more restrained is something that you have been taught and absorbed in a culture of white supremacy?</I><BR/><BR/>The latter, mostly--something that I and other whites have been taught and have absorbed (in ways no doubt compounded and made variable by socioeconomic status, and other influences)in a culture with an ongoing history of white supremacy. Your first part, the former, seems to have happened much more strongly historically than it does now. And "means" in your sentence would mean "was figured as," or "was assumed to be."macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-72468072805982138962009-02-17T13:17:00.000-08:002009-02-17T13:17:00.000-08:00Hi Macon,I am confused by this post, are you sayin...Hi Macon,<BR/>I am confused by this post, are you saying that whiteness means more cerebral and more physically restrained in comparison to non-white identity, or are you saying that the idea of whiteness as more cerebral and more restrained is something that you have been taught and absorbed in a culture of white supremacy? I think that is an important distinction, because the basis of your premise, of white identity formation seems flawed in that white identity denies the various ethnic and class identities that comprise whiteness, actually promoting the perpetuation of white superiority and the application of double standards for the same or similar behavior.<BR/>It seems to me that this post is another perpetuation of the idea that whiteness has no culture because it is considered to be the norm. I am particularly interested in the idea that you promoted here that white people don't dance, or dance less or are more physically restrained. Thanks.vanishing pointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00162872388532519328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-37182050721619677302009-02-16T11:53:00.000-08:002009-02-16T11:53:00.000-08:00@restructure!No. It gives me credibility with that...@restructure!<BR/><BR/>No. It gives me credibility with that individual.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong. I'm not one to give white people collectively much credit for things like electing Pres Obama. The majority of white people voted for McCain, and the rest voted for the only real option. You don't get a cookie for voting for the person who's best qualified BY FAR!<BR/><BR/>But from one individual to another, I give everybody credit when they get something right. Black, white. Young, old.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-10131911567399079042009-02-16T05:59:00.000-08:002009-02-16T05:59:00.000-08:00no1kstate, I understand that things you find funny...no1kstate, <BR/><BR/>I understand that things you find funny are things you find funny, whether it comes from you or someone else (of any race). However, there is an additional racial subtext that bothers me. For example, this quote from you gives me pause:<BR/><BR/><I>And I do give white people credit when they do/say something anti-racist. It gives me credibility for touching them up when they do do/say something racist.</I><BR/><BR/>The "credibility" you are referring to here is "credibility in the eyes of whites". Objectively speaking, the validity of your opinion should not depend on what white people think. Yes, white people take people of colour more seriously when they give cookies for anti-racism in proportion to criticizing white people for racism. (This is why I'm not taken that seriously on this blog, because I rarely give cookies and I am critical 99% of the time.) However, it's not right.<BR/><BR/>I am not some kind of inherently hard-ass person. I used to do the same as you and give cookies to white liberals, because I wanted to be taken seriously by white people and be accepted as having sensible views. However, I found that when you keep compromising, the centrist or accepted view keeps slowly creeping to the right. Compromising might hurt in the long run, because if you repeat something enough times, it becomes entrenched and accepted as normal. When you don't speak out, they'll think that everything is fine. White people usually aren't aware that people of colour are restraining themselves, because there is a stereotype that people of colour are unrestrained, spontaneous, and already crying racism at every opportunity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75225381625944081252009-02-15T17:44:00.000-08:002009-02-15T17:44:00.000-08:00I'm well aware of how common that allegation is, R...I'm well aware of how common that allegation is, Restructure. That doesn't mean it's never true.<BR/><BR/>Regarding white American bodily restraint, have you read Ronald Takaki's <I>Iron Cages</I>? It's a good starting point on some elements of American racial formation, especially white American identity, that you seem to know nothing about. You should read it, and then come back and tell me if you still think that identifying and examining a particularly "white American" mode of bodily restraint is racist.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest of your last comment, I'm not a big fan of repeating myself, especially when the other side's primary characteristic is obstinacy.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21678556570924785622009-02-15T17:21:00.000-08:002009-02-15T17:21:00.000-08:00Macon D,Restructure, to say that a person implicit...Macon D,<BR/><BR/><I>Restructure, to say that a person implicitly thinks something doesn't make any sense to me.</I><BR/><BR/>Here is an example. Somebody I know claims that anything dark-coloured looks ugly. It is a fact of the world that there are dark-skinned people. Ergo, she thinks that dark-skinned people look ugly. However, if you ask her, "Do you think dark-skinned people look ugly?", she'll say "no" or avoid answering the question. She doesn't explicitly think that dark-skinned people are ugly, because if such a thought started to come up, she might worry that she was racist and then think of other, happier things. However, her explicit thought + facts about the world + logical implications = implicit thoughts about the world.<BR/><BR/>I am not "ignoring" your disclaimer. I just think that it is an insincere disclaimer, because it contradicts the whole theme of your post, including the title. You made the disclaimer, and then followed with a "But then" which "debunked" the disclaimer.<BR/><BR/>I vehemently disagree with you "restrain themselves" post and I think it's racist, so it makes sense that I would disagree with this post, the dancing post, and all other posts of yours which build upon your "restrain themselves" idea.<BR/><BR/><I>Your myopic search for racism on my part</I><BR/><BR/>This is so tired and absurd. Are you so myopic as to not be aware that the allegation, "you are just looking for racism" is so typically white?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-83709455052377655092009-02-15T15:35:00.000-08:002009-02-15T15:35:00.000-08:00@restructure!I get your point, but you're still mi...@restructure!<BR/><BR/>I get your point, but you're still missing mine.<BR/><BR/>I've grown up with bigots, subtle racism from leftist, and intellectual arguments by biggests. Just like I purposely started egged an argument between my brother and his wife because one of them, I can't remember which, had gotten on my nerve and I thought it'd be funny (It was!); I personally think it's funny when a white person takes a dig a whiteness. Sorry. Get over it.<BR/><BR/>And I do give white people credit when they do/say something anti-racist. It gives me credibility for touching them up when they do do/say something racist.<BR/><BR/>And let me repeat - I think it's funny when a white person says something I've thought myself just like I think it's funny when Chris Rock or any other black comedian(ne) says something I've thought myself. It's funny to hear it out loud from another person.<BR/><BR/>For the love of all that's good and holy, restructure, could you please read entire comments and posts before you say something about it! How old are you? If you're going to do anti-racicst blogging/commenting/work, you need to either develop your reading comprehension skills or learn to read <I>every</I> word of a post before you let your emotions lead you to wrong assumptions.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70746199312881579082009-02-15T14:36:00.000-08:002009-02-15T14:36:00.000-08:00Restructure, to say that a person implicitly think...Restructure, to say that a person implicitly thinks something doesn't make any sense to me.<BR/><BR/>Actually, I did "think through the implications" of this post regarding the supposed mental capacities of various races, which is one reason why I wrote the part that you insist on ignoring: "Of course, some non-white comedians, and some non-white ordinary people, deliver deadpan humor too, and laugh it. Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all." Your myopic search for racism on my part also misses a larger topic in the post--whether a white taste for deadpan comedy is related to a white history of bodily restraint. It's not a claim, implicit or explicit, about mental capacity. Also, wondering if deadpan comedy might be common among whites because of a history of white self-definition in relation to the supposed qualities of other races does not disallow that many non-whites might have a taste for it too, for whatever reasons. <BR/><BR/>As for dancing white people, my general point in the posts I used to write about white people who do or don't dance was not that they don't dance as well as black people do (and why does non-white have to equal "black"?). It was basically conjecture, or perhaps a hypothesis, that many don't dance often, or as often as they would otherwise, because the history of American whiteness has entailed disciplined, constrained white bodies. To say that is not to say, or even necessarily imply, that non-white people don't have their own ways of restraining their bodies, nor that they do or don't dance any more or less than white people do. So again, saying that something is common among white people for particular reasons need not also mean that isn't also common among other people; it could well be. And if so, or if not, that may be a result of different historical (and contemporary) influences.<BR/><BR/>It's true that I have been raised and trained to be white in a society that continues to be white supremacist, so like all white people, I certainly do bear instilled racist inclinations. But I disagree with your claims that I'm enacting such inclinations in these instances under discussion.<BR/><BR/>And by the way, I'm not going to approve any comments by you that dredge up posts and comments I've written in the past. It's too tedious to address what you write when you do that, and it's also usually off the topic of the post at hand.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-67590431125593586692009-02-15T12:28:00.000-08:002009-02-15T12:28:00.000-08:00Anonymous,If you don't think he would think that l...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/><I>If you don't think he would think that literally, then why upthread did you say he's "such an ass"? The only way Macon's post could be read the way you originally misinterpreted it is to do just that, misinterpret it. You wrote that he claimed "that only white people have the mental capacity for deadpanning and cerebral humour," but now you're trying to take that back? By saying "of course" he wouldn't say that? Get real! (And the post doesn't say it "is" a racial inheritance, it says it might be, and if so in a historical sense, not a biological one.)</I><BR/><BR/>What I meant was that even if he would not think that explicitly or literally, there's a high chance that he thought that implicitly or indirectly, due to not thinking through the implications. For example, Macon D says that white people don't dance well, which is a meaningful comment only if the "white" part is relevant, meaning that white people don't dance as well as non-white people, and that non-white (read: black) people dance well. However, if you asked Macon D, "Would you say that black people dance well?", he would probably say "no", because it sounds racist, and he would not explicitly think "black people dance well". (Perhaps "literally" is not quite the right word. "Explicitly" is probably more accurate.)<BR/><BR/>no1kstate,<BR/><BR/>Personally, I am very rarely in the company of bigots, so most of the racism I encounter is the "subtle" kind involving white liberals/leftists. For me, white people taking credit for something that was originally done or said by a non-white person is far more common than bigots spewing racist bigotry. When white people get credit for saying something antiracist while being white, to me, it is just another display of racism. In some ways, it is even more maddening because they are congratulating themselves for being "not racist" and progressive. The irony is painful, because they don't see it (while they consider themselves the connoisseurs of irony, of course).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-7357209916593146922009-02-14T17:23:00.000-08:002009-02-14T17:23:00.000-08:00@restructure!You totally missed my point and misun...@restructure!<BR/><BR/>You totally missed my point and misunderstood what I said. I never said I feel special when someone gets credit from something I've done.<BR/><BR/>What I tried to say is that I think uncouth things about white people all the time. For example, I think most collegiate white girls are corny. I think it's funny when white people say about themselves something I've been thinking. Just like I think Chris Rock is funny when he says something I've been think.<BR/><BR/>The other point I was making is that there are some things white people will only hear from other white people, like how racist and insensitive their supposed mockery of bigots can be. In cases like that when the message of given in a joke, not only do I think it's funny, I'm glad it was said. I'm glad anytime something is said to combat racism. But feeling special because someone is taking credit for something I did? Yeah. I <I>would</I> have to have low self-esteem.<BR/><BR/>But since I don't, perhaps you should be clear about what you're reading before you make critical judgements like that.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-69654295045197933612009-02-14T17:14:00.000-08:002009-02-14T17:14:00.000-08:00Restructure, you wrote,"You even go as far as to s...Restructure, you wrote,<BR/><BR/>"You even go as far as to say that deadpanning is a "racial inheritance", which may be interpreted as a statement about hereditary influence. (Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)"<BR/><BR/>If you don't think he would think that literally, then why upthread did you say he's "such an ass"? The only way Macon's post could be read the way you originally misinterpreted it is to do just that, misinterpret it. You wrote that he claimed "that only white people have the mental capacity for deadpanning and cerebral humour," but now you're trying to take that back? By saying "of course" he wouldn't say that? Get real! (And the post doesn't say it "is" a racial inheritance, it says it might be, and if so in a historical sense, not a biological one.)<BR/><BR/>Macon is not an ass for writing something that could be misinterpreted by someone because their not reading carefully. You're an ass for not fessing up to your own careless, and wrong, reading of the post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38556198646571066302009-02-14T15:34:00.000-08:002009-02-14T15:34:00.000-08:00Macon D,The condensed version of what you were say...Macon D,<BR/><BR/>The condensed version of what you were saying is:<BR/><BR/>"Maybe that's even far more common than I realize, and deadpan humor isn't a particularly white thing at all. [...] But at this point, in my continual effort to come to terms with common white tendencies in both myself and others, I think it might be."<BR/><BR/>You even go as far as to say that deadpanning is a "racial inheritance", which may be interpreted as a statement about hereditary influence. (Of course, I don't think you would think that literally, but I also don't think you thought through what you were trying to say.)<BR/><BR/>My personal humour is characteristically deadpan and sarcastic, and deadpanning sarcasm usually comes across as well as sarcasm on the internet without sarcasm tags. People have told me that I need to inflect my voice or change my facial expression so that they know I am being sarcastic, but I am the type of person who thinks irony is self-evident.<BR/><BR/>I think your problem, Macon D, which extends beyond this particular post, is that you do not recognize enough that people of colour do not have complete control over how they are perceived in the media, and do not collectively decide which people of colour become famous. Most deadpan comedians are white, but this does not mean that there are no deadpan comedians of colour. There could be racial discrimination, deadpan comedians of colour may not be perceived as funny, deadpan comedians of colour may not be perceived as deadpanning, etc.<BR/><BR/>I know people of colour who deadpan in real life, but I don't know that many POC comedians. POC in the media--and even on the internet--do not reflect the full diversity of POC.<BR/><BR/>no1skate,<BR/><BR/><I>Me? I'm a black woman, and I think Dimitri is funny. But, I'm not sure why. I guess I just like it when a white guys says all the stuff I want to say. Having been the only raisin in the pie on more the a few occasions even in college, there're just somethings the white people will only hear from other white people. </I><BR/><BR/>I think you have really low standards for yourself if you think that white people saying the same thing you have said and getting credit for it is a positive thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33047131660453559382009-02-12T04:40:00.000-08:002009-02-12T04:40:00.000-08:00Good points Macon. This reminds me of the old min...Good points Macon. This reminds me of the old minstrel days, when certain forms of performance were coded white and others black. White performers had to use blackface to perform what was considered black music and dance, usually more physical and demonstrative. The flipside to this practice was the fact that it limited what was acceptably white, forcing white performers who didn't want to be race players out of entire genres. There's a double-edged sword to establishing these kinds of binaries.<BR/><BR/>As for hipsterdom and its whiteness, I know a lot of non-white hipsters. In NYC there's a large population of homegrown POC hipsters. It makes it easier to ridicule hipsterdom though, when it's typified as a white thing. White hipsters in Williamsburg are vilified as archetypal upper-middle class gentrifiers, but we ignore the black upper-middle class gentrifiers of neighborhoods like Fort Greene. Erykah Badu keeps house there, to give you a sense of the type of black hipsterdom I'm referring to. Nonetheless the same effect of raising rent prices pushes poorer residents out of neighborhoods. Removing the racial component makes the story much less sexy, but nonetheless exposes the more salient class component. It's harder to criticize because, well, Badu, Mos Def, and Saul Williams are cool as hell. But if you go to Fort Greene today, you'll notice all those familiar hipster fashions with afrocentric splashes. In the end, what's the difference? Hard stuff to grapple with.Kinowolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07223531747062480050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32430872165539088612009-02-07T09:25:00.000-08:002009-02-07T09:25:00.000-08:00Thank you for providing some of the results of you...Thank you for providing some of the results of your research, kid, there's a lot to chew on there. I have no doubt that a lot of white humor is based on and steals from the work of black comedians. It doesn't follow, though, that all white comedians owe all that they do to black predecessors, nor that white audiences are necessarily attracted to every seemingly white kind of comedy because there's something in it that appeals to them that's actually black. <BR/><BR/>There's much to be said and acknowledged about white obliteration of black foundations and contributions, but the original post is about a particular strain of comedy--observational, yes, but also deadpan, and ironic, and abstract random--that's "white" in terms of the overwhelming predominance of the white people doing it, and paying to watch others do it. There's no doubt that black influences on various forms of American comedy are huge, and that it's unacknowledged, but if it's in this strain of white comedy, I'm still not seeing it. So what I'm hypothesizing is that the restrained, deadpan (and maybe apathetic) element might be a historical hangover or inheritance from the history of white bodily training.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comment Sarah, a lot to chew on there too. You wrote,<BR/><BR/><I>I think that might be all the critic is putting together, that hipster/indie culture is whiter than average culture, and Demetri has lots of hipster cues. Ironic bowlcut, fitted t-shirt, apathetic tone, sincerity wrapped in ironic corniness, amateur infographics...</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds about right. I'm wondering if there's any more to be said about the whiteness there, whether an understanding of it can be broadened by tying it to historical continuities. "Deadpan as performed apathy" is dead on. Whiteness has long been an elitist divide-and-conquer tool, and potentially powerful groups that have been atomized into individualistic and apathetic consumers, who ironically cherish originality and individualism, seems symptomatic of another historical and racialized continuity.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link to the ironic hipster protest. Depressing, but clarifying.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-9631415534001229262009-02-07T07:38:00.000-08:002009-02-07T07:38:00.000-08:00Let me explain the history.Early American theaters...Let me explain the history.Early American theaters mostly did comic plays.A American composer seen a black kid singing "Jump Jim Crow" and the minstrel show was born. One day a vaudevillian named Bert Williams did a "black face" routine.He was the highest paid comedian at the time.Eddie Cantor and George Burns studied under him.One day in a bar he was refused service unless he could pay $100 for a drink. He asked for five.He made more money than the President."Pigmeat" Markham ,Eddie "Rochester" Anderson,Redd Foxx ,were vaudevillians. Their humor was blue. Sophie Tucker did blue material too.So it was mostly Black and Jewish comics that did this. WASP comics were nonexistent.Today you do have "Black" comics that do observational material.Dave Chappelle broke the Guinness book of world record twice doing six hour concerts.You just didn't know about it because you didn't hear about it.Another thing Eddie "Rochester" Anderson WROTE, for Jack Benny.We were there but like Ralph Ellison said we were invisible.kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15403016215102685806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-28175210269408625132009-02-06T20:13:00.000-08:002009-02-06T20:13:00.000-08:00ooh i like what sarah said. and no, i kno nothing ...ooh i like what sarah said. <BR/><BR/>and no, i kno nothing about jewish comedy/comedians. but im keeping my eyes peeled and brain ticking.kthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07932476548654021936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-62032435651577509482009-02-06T14:32:00.000-08:002009-02-06T14:32:00.000-08:00From wayyy up at the beginning of the comments,"I ...From wayyy up at the beginning of the comments,<BR/><BR/>"I don't think a movement or trend or group identity needs to be 100% white to identify it as, basically, a 'white' thing."<BR/><BR/>I usually think about how disproportionate an audience is compared to a total population. E.g., every time I've been to an indie rock show the crowd is more white than a random sample of local people would be. I remember a <A HREF="http://www.catbirdseat.org/catbirdseat/bingo.html" REL="nofollow">hipster bingo card</A> from 2003 that joked about the lone Asian hipsters at shows. <BR/><BR/>I think that might be all the critic is putting together, that hipster/indie culture is whiter than average culture, and Demetri has lots of hipster cues. Ironic bowlcut, fitted t-shirt, apathetic tone, sincerity wrapped in ironic corniness, amateur infographics... <BR/><BR/>And it is ubiquitous, and people are bored with it, but scenester style has consumed criticism before. I'm skeptical that this signals the demise of hipster culture. <A HREF="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gretchenrobinette/3251994715/" REL="nofollow">Complaining about hipsters is the ultimate hipster activity</A>. It's been indestructable because it's about competition and co-opting everything. Competing for obscure lifestyle knowledge, when the internet gives everyone equal access to it. It's perfect right? An infinite arms race. Pretending to be outsiders in order to fit in, distracted from building a thorough political analysis.<BR/><BR/>So I think that more than a deadpan delivery, the hipster cue that attracts all those white people might be a lack of political passion. Deadpan as performed apathy.<BR/><BR/>And yeah, of course, that can appeal to anyone. But it does seem to be disproportionately attractive for white people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-386031777691031242009-02-06T12:16:00.000-08:002009-02-06T12:16:00.000-08:00Thanks for the tip, Roxie. I hope others here are ...Thanks for the tip, Roxie. <BR/><BR/>I hope others here are willing to explore too, but I can see how asking them to might be too much to ask. I'm asking kid because, although so much "white culture" clearly does draw from black cultural forms, I've never heard of such a black tradition of deadpan comedy that these comedians would be borrowing from. I also wouldn't know where to do such research. Since it seems that kid has done some research on comedy and race, I thought he or she might have an answer.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.com