tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post6063796139451666645..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: question non-white knowledge and authoritymacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger128125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91871534526021829042013-02-13T14:49:18.979-08:002013-02-13T14:49:18.979-08:00Why in the holy hell can't it be both a race a...Why in the holy hell can't it be both a race and gender issue? And what the f**&K do you mean using racism as an "excuse." It's not an excuse, it's a REALITY. And I know not one POC who uses it as a reason why they may have failed. As people, collectively, we have not FAILED. We have survived and yet we still face obstacles thrown in our way by RACISM. FACT not EXCUSE. I find what you say, Asdonis, if you did not notice extremely insulting and proving the entire point of the post.The Shytroverthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12554818684558513438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18177836647492635242010-03-05T04:22:23.434-08:002010-03-05T04:22:23.434-08:00While I do understand there is the possibility tha...While I do understand there is the possibility that this was a gender issue not a race issue. Thats a given and must be taken into account. But I must say one thing, if poc should not use racism as an excuse as to why they fail then perhaps white people and poc alike should fail to excuse racism.Aadonis219https://www.blogger.com/profile/07723170896698228170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82154024432658913422010-03-04T21:20:48.610-08:002010-03-04T21:20:48.610-08:00I stumbled upon this blog today and I'm totall...I stumbled upon this blog today and I'm totally in love with it now.<br /><br />Here's one example of a white person discounting my knowledge even though she knows NOTHING about what she's talking about.<br /><br />In high school, my World History teacher spent about 3 days rushing through all the materials on non-western cultures (yes, she spent forever on ancient greece and rome and 3 days glossing over all other ancient cultures). When she covered chinese culture, she stated that Confucianism was a religion. Me, being a Chinese-American girl, raised my hand and said I disagreed and that Confucianism is better classified as a philosophy. My teacher, a white female, got this bug-eyed look and she very angrily said it was a religion. And then she promptly continued her lecture and refused to acknowledge me anymore.<br /><br />I find it ridiculous that my white teacher would presume to lecture me on something she knows NOTHING about, ESPECIALLY compared to me. I'm not saying all Chinese-americans are knowledgeable about Chinese culture but in this instance, I AM pretty knowledgeable. And I found it incredible that she would so rudely and confidently dismiss what I said because she's so assured that she knows more about confucianism than I do. Her limits of Chinese culture probably came from Kung-fu movies and that ONE paragraph in the textbook that covered confucianism (and btw, the textbook was wrong too. it ALSO stated Confucianism was a religion)<br /><br />I was really angry but there was nothing I can do. She's the teacher, I'm the student, and though she always portrayed herself as a reasonable progressive, her inner bigotry quickly revealed itself the moment a non-white person dared to challenge her knowledge.in deednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91032125530056134522010-01-30T20:37:04.070-08:002010-01-30T20:37:04.070-08:00http://herecomethatgirl.blogspot.com/
I'm try...http://herecomethatgirl.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I'm trying a new layout. So bare with me.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-45730085690742213762010-01-30T20:21:21.214-08:002010-01-30T20:21:21.214-08:00Hi no1kstate--no problem, thanks for the complimen...Hi no1kstate--no problem, thanks for the compliment! Can you send me the url for your blog?purvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693942907952783613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-89538301654343907422010-01-30T20:04:38.283-08:002010-01-30T20:04:38.283-08:00Hope you don't mind, purvis, I'm going to ...Hope you don't mind, purvis, I'm going to use your comment in my blog.<br /><br />Do share more! You can find my contact on my blog.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63208648418639944602010-01-30T19:36:02.651-08:002010-01-30T19:36:02.651-08:00The whole argument of whether this is sexist or ra...The whole argument of whether this is sexist or racist reminds me of something that happened to me... I am a white, female convert to Islam. For about 1.5 years, I chose to wear the Islamic headscarf. So not only was I visibly Muslim, but often percieved as "Middle Eastern." <br /><br />I went from being a white person, with all the privliges that come with that, to being an openly *despised* minority. During that time, there were scattered instances of people saying/doing blatantly Islamophobic things, but most of the prejudice I experienced on a day-to-day basis was much more subtle. <br /><br />For instance, someone would be smiling and acting naturally, but when they saw me, they'd tense up and look really uncomfortable. There would be a general unfriendliness toward me that was not shared with other people. Or people would look as if they were just holding themselves back from saying something rude/condescending to me. Or they'd look scared--like they thought I was gonna do something to them..<br /><br />Anyway, after I decided to stop wearing it--for reasons unrelated to how difficult it was (although I *hated* that part also)--I would tell people how difficult it was to deal with people's reactions to me. To which they would reply that they *never* noticed people treating me differently. Hm.<br /><br />The reason they didn't notice it was because it wasn't aimed at *them*. Because most of the prejudice was subtle, and I was used to it and was able to recognize it. And.. unlike in the case of race, I was able to remove my headscarf and go "back" to being a regular white person--and when I did, I could immediately see the difference in how people treated me.<br /><br />So how does this relate to this post? I am ashamed to admit that when I first read this story, I immediately felt that these guys were being sexist (not necessarily *not* racist also, but definitely sexist). But that is because I have never been a PoC, and thus experienced racism. I have only been female and experienced sexism. Therefore, my POV is skewed, is different from the author's, and if she says it was racism, she should know!<br /><br />I hope this helps those who think this is mainly sexism and downplay the racism aspect. (not that anyone is probably still reading these comments months later!)purvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693942907952783613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52755231993240740452009-11-22T14:11:04.946-08:002009-11-22T14:11:04.946-08:00Aan, thank you so much for mentioning the Battle o...Aan, thank you so much for mentioning the Battle of Adwa in light of this entire post. You are correct - the Ethiopians did indeed defeat the Italians at Adwa. In fact the Italians WERE outnumbered: By 110,000 Ethiopians to only 20,000 Italians. This is because various Ethiopian peoples, factions - or what we like to call TRIBES - actually came together to defeat the Italians. I mention this because it is also taught that "tribes" in Africa can never, have never, and will never get along. That they fight amongst each other and will destroy each other rather than unite for a common good. I always read this in history books and was taught all my life to accept it as fact and common knowledge. It is only now, through further reading, that I am realizing that this is not true.Niahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14142930506490674435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-31993600626930866422009-11-22T12:02:52.870-08:002009-11-22T12:02:52.870-08:00Another excellent post! So true. I agree with the ...Another excellent post! So true. I agree with the commentator who said whenever a person of color brings up examples of whites ignoring racism when a POC points it out as deflection. Its a shame and annoying tha non white knowledge is always not that it sometimes happens but "always" questioned by whites even when the POC's knowledge is correct! I have many examples of this happening in even with friends and classmates who are super liberal and cool. I love history and I consider myself quite knowledgeable in it. <br /><br />I've gotten into an argument with my professor about Ethiopians defeating the Italians during the Battle of Adwa back in 1896. I was explaining to my economic history prof during class that it is common knowledge and even written in some world history books that Ethiopian King Menelik II and his army were the first Africans to defeat European colonists in an African country while colonialists tried to conquer it. I than told my professor that Ethiopia has never been colonized by any European powers because of Ethiopians' determination to remain free and independent. All my classmates remained quiet not saying a single word. BTW, I was one of only two black women in our class and for our major International Relations. <br /><br />My professor shot down my knowledge of history by saying, "But Ethiopians used spears, they were outnumbered by the Italians and Italians had advanced technology, etc." The old argument that Europe was more advanced than Africa, etc which is also historically incorrect. So my professor and I went back and forth. I kept repeating that the Ethiopians still defeated Italians regardless of their lack of advanced weapons and he kept insisted that somehow it couldn't be possible. He was viewing Ethiopians under European colonialism as solely helpless.<br /><br />Another time in my globalization class, we were talking about Israeli Palestine conflict. Again, I told my professor who listened patiently and the class about how Israel has broken every international law and UN Resolution imaginable. I also told them about brutal military occupation happening in Palestine and illegal settlements. Of course my classmates remained tight lipped. But when another student who was white talked about how other countries violated international law and even repeating some of what I said the following day than all of a sudden my usually silent classmates started backing her up with head nods, saying, "yeah and this also happens, etc" and some of them even added their own information to what she was saying. I don't understand why knowledge by People of color are not valid unless a white person repeats it. I don't know why my classmates did not agree with me until the other student spoke. Weird country we live in I guess.<br /><br />Ps one thing that has always annoyed me was how some white Americans and Europeans act as though they know far more about Africa and Africans than Africans and AA themselves. And I have relatives and friends who live there. There are people who actually believe that the stereotypes of "dark continent" applies to every African country regardless of different culture, religion, language and geography. Even when I tell my classmates and friends that this is wrong and not even correct they look at me strange and try to insist that again it can;t be true.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330065434562207107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-59197380192848581772009-10-28T10:48:08.390-07:002009-10-28T10:48:08.390-07:00Tim Wise for the win!<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ8xQPdjJfM" rel="nofollow">Tim Wise for the win!</a>RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76856765046116469132009-10-25T04:47:32.596-07:002009-10-25T04:47:32.596-07:00@brando
*eyetwitch*@brando<br /><br />*eyetwitch*RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46949621485724227592009-10-25T00:48:55.853-07:002009-10-25T00:48:55.853-07:00I mean, how can you be sure that the white roommat...I mean, how can you be sure that the white roommates didn't listen to you because you're black? I think they were just idiots.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12955755755915265509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12378377889906046962009-10-19T06:06:40.480-07:002009-10-19T06:06:40.480-07:00Thank you - all of you - for exemplifying - by pos...Thank you - all of you - for exemplifying - by post #4 & then endlessly onward! - the absolute truth of the original post. This white woman has had her consciousness seriously raised. That I'm 40 years old and it took this long leaves me (properly) ashamed.coyotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82485014524774863202009-10-17T15:33:09.336-07:002009-10-17T15:33:09.336-07:00I find, as an Asian male, that I my knowledge of m...I find, as an Asian male, that I my knowledge of mathematics and sciences is never questioned by white people, but the Arts (which I actually study!) are apparently something I cannot possibly know more about than white people. They have no trouble accepting my ideas of mathematics as fact, but the second I have an interpretation (for which I was marked an A+) of The Catcher in the Rye they look at me dubiously despite them having not even attain honours (I'm Canadian, we spell 'honours' with a 'u') in High School English.Sean Geenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50419737536107389862009-10-16T16:02:53.431-07:002009-10-16T16:02:53.431-07:00This post reminded me of an incident that happened...This post reminded me of an incident that happened in a communications theory class I took many years ago. We were studying race issues, when the prof asked the only POC in the class to explain to the class how he experiences/understands white privilege. So, the man explained his experiences and the white students errupted in anger. "It's not true! I'm not like that! My life isn't like that! I don't see how you can say that!"<br /><br />I'm a white woman, and this man and I were friends, so I repeated what he said, and provided examples that I had witnessed. The white students became more willing to discuss the issue, instead of shouting and denying it outright. <br /><br />It took a white woman to verify a MOC's personal experience -- how twisted is that?A-no-no-missnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-77657118571358739722009-10-14T08:11:20.262-07:002009-10-14T08:11:20.262-07:00Points taken on this end, bluey, thanks for clarif...Points taken on this end, bluey, thanks for clarifying.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-87116737888158957752009-10-14T07:43:31.439-07:002009-10-14T07:43:31.439-07:00Macon,
I've taken a while to respond to this ...Macon,<br /><br />I've taken a while to respond to this because this thread has been quite confusing to me.<br /><br />The reason I didn't see comments like, "Couldn't it be sexism?" as derailing is because of the way the post originally came off. In the very latest post, about how white people fail to see how race and gender intersect, it is pretty obvious that the post is about personal feelings, shared in the way one might share an experience with friends. It's not intended to be absolute truth, it's not something they want to debate rigorously, it's just "Here's how I see things, here's how I feel about it." Reading it inspires a lot of sympathy.<br /><br />This post doesn't come off the same way. It comes off kind of scientific, actually (at least to me, and from what I can see, to others as well). Almost like, "Here's an experiment, here are my conclusions." Naturally being the sort of person who loves rigorous debate, it was certainly easy for me to see it that way and respond in kind. It's also possible that that's how white people (particularly men, but women too) are trained to respond - I've certainly seen this exact kind of confusion happen before.<br /><br />Now, the way you and RVCBard and others have responded to comments on this thread seems to indicate that this thread was intended to be similar to the most recent one - a WOC sharing her personal feelings. Having taken a clue from your and RVCBard's reactions, and having re-read the post with that perspective in mind, I can see that's not how the post was intended. Sorry, RVCBard, if I contributed to the problem you were describing.<br /><br />I'd like to clarify that I said "blew up" because I was originally thinking of the way my dad reacts to innocent questions, and replaced him with Paul Krugman because I didn't want to drag family drama into it. RVCBard has been perfectly polite and calm even when her responses didn't make sense to me. It was the perceived unreasonableness of her response I was trying to point out, not the emotional aspect.bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26731407874995132762009-10-13T20:00:01.143-07:002009-10-13T20:00:01.143-07:00@fromthetropics
Thanks! That makes a lot of sense...@fromthetropics<br /><br />Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. I am going to try to formulate a response to your recent guest post because I think that is probably the right place to discuss this!Pistolinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21067436116245329732009-10-10T22:45:57.640-07:002009-10-10T22:45:57.640-07:00>I think that the part where you said racialize...>I think that the part where you said racialized sexism is the worst is the reason I am keen to understand this<br /><br />Me too. I'm keen to understand it too. <br /><br />>Maybe I am not coming across correctly? Or maybe the problem is that people are so sick of the latter that the former becomes grating, too?<br /><br />Hard to say. A third possibility is that perhaps as a WOC, we have a hard time understanding what your experiences are or that it could possibly be similar, since we all often see things through our own prisms.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-54360276407219884562009-10-09T11:53:33.870-07:002009-10-09T11:53:33.870-07:00@fromthetropics
I really appreciate your long and...@fromthetropics<br /><br />I really appreciate your long and thoughtful response. I get the difference between empathy to say "yes, this exists" and empathy to say "look at me, cry cry." I definitely recognize this difference and strive to do the former-- I absolutely don't think my experiences are identical to those of black women and I try to make that clear. I am wondering, though, if that is still a derailment of sorts and that I was operating under the false assumption that it wasn't. <br /><br />Maybe I am not coming across correctly? Or maybe the problem is that people are so sick of the latter that the former becomes grating, too? I could totally understand that.<br /><br />I think that the part where you said racialized sexism is the worst is the reason I am keen to understand this-- the bad stuff I have experienced as a result of my ethnicity all definitely falls under the heading of racialized sexism. And other white women don't understand it, and are insulting and degrading when you try to talk about it, and often act the way the white people in the OP's post act. <br /><br />I am not really sure who I can talk to about it because it seems like I am insulting and degrading women of other races when I try to talk to them about it. That just leaves me in the middle by myself trying to figure out how to handle the racialized sexism I experience with no one interested in engaging with me about how to face it.Pistolinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-81297021268588047592009-10-09T09:38:58.502-07:002009-10-09T09:38:58.502-07:00@Pistolina, not sure if this will answer you as I’...@Pistolina, not sure if this will answer you as I’m trying to think out loud for myself too, but here’s trying. (And some of the stuff you probably already know.) Racism, sexism, and racialized sexism all leave us feeling ugh or yuck. But in my experience they each have a different kind of ugh or yuck feel to them (and ATM I vote for racialized sexism as the worst). <br /><br />Similarly, I experience racism from white people as an Asian. I have experienced racism a few times from Japanese people as a non-Japanese Asian. Then there’s racism from Singaporeans (and Malaysians and Koreans) when they see me as Indonesian. I’ve also ‘felt’ prejudiced vibes from English speaking Indians. They’re all racism and unpleasant or ugh, but each ugh feels slightly different from the other, I think, due to the different power dynamics at hand. Obviously, I’m most concerned with racism from white people as that is where the power differential is greatest, and most difficult to escape due to its global influence. (It even seems to affect the fate of whole nations.)<br /><br />Thus, based on the above experience, I can empathize with say, black people when they talk about their racist experiences, but only to a *limited* degree. I don’t carry the baggage of the history of mass continental slavery and being placed at the bottom by social Darwinism. So I know that I can never fully understand what racism feels like for black people. I’m sure I’ve empathized in the wrong way with others in the past (they just never called me out on it), but I’m also trying to not think that I *fully* understand the experiences of other groups. It’s the same racism, but also different. <br /><br />e.g. If a Korean was to tell me about the racism they experience in Japan, I’ll nod in agreement that indeed such racism exists. But I would not then say, oh yes, I experience it too and give examples. I’m half Japanese, I can pass as Japanese, and I don’t have the baggage of history (Japanese colonialism), so it would be inappropriate for me to assume the same position as a Korean on the issue of racism in Japan. <br /><br />e.g. One time I shared about racism in Australia, some white ethnic minorities related their experiences of racism in Australia. This didn’t bother me. In fact, I was relieved to know that I wasn’t the only one experiencing it. I’m trying to think why it didn’t bother me. Perhaps it was because their discussion focused on racism, ‘yes I agree it happens here and I’ll give you some examples of how I know’, rather than on them, ‘I have it just as bad too, see, see’. I feel they were validating my experiences for my sake, and they were not trying to get sympathy from me for their experiences. Could this be the subtle difference between empathy and derailing that Angel H talked about?fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-61417091820841690372009-10-08T20:39:41.725-07:002009-10-08T20:39:41.725-07:00Specifically to Unhappy Camper,
I am a white per...Specifically to Unhappy Camper, <br /><br />I am a white person who finds this blog to be very valuable. I do want to know that I am acting hurtfully or hurting someone's feelings. I do want to know if my behavior is toxic. <br /><br />Reading this blog helps me make peace with my own actions and accept that I don't know everything there is to know about racism and because of that, I sometimes do things that are insensitive and harmful to other people. And I need to do that before I can move on and be a stronger ally. I want allies of my own. I don't want people to hurt me through insensitivity. In order to make sure I don't, I sometimes need help understanding where my insensitivities are.Pistolinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65909219403950246762009-10-08T20:31:04.964-07:002009-10-08T20:31:04.964-07:00I have a question specifically related to Angel H&...I have a question specifically related to Angel H's comment. <br /><br />I'm a white person who is a member of an ethnic minority. I'm also a queer lady. I know how frustrating it is when people re-center conversations like a lot of the commenters here have tried to do. But one thing that I have run into in discussions with PoCs that I would like to learn to address better is how to express my empathy without derailing, or if it is appropriate to express empathy at all. <br /><br />For me, I think that it is important to acknowledge not only intersectionality, but layers of racism and colorism-- and because of that, I try to share the ways in which my experiences are more like other white people's, and the way in which they are more like black people's. I feel like looking at the spectrum of the racial caste system in this society is important-- there's not just two extremes of "black" and "white." <br /><br />So sometimes I will try to chime in with a personal experience that is more like what the black people I am talking to have experienced. I am not trying to invalidate their racialized experiences-- I am trying to assure them that some white people do understand where they are coming from, or in some cases to point it out as corroborating evidence when white people who are not ethnic minorities trot out the kind of behavior that the OP is discussing and the kind of behavior we see in some of the comments here.<br /><br />Now and then, a PoC will call me out and say that I am derailing the conversation. This certainly isn't my intent and I try to sit back and try to do some serious unpacking when this happens. But I *think* I am doing what Angel H is talking about being a good thing (empathy). At least, that's what I'm trying to do.<br /><br />Is the problem with my doing this that my corroboration makes it seem as if I consider myself a better voice of authority than the PoCs in the conversation? Because that is not my intent but I can certainly see how the statements the OP made about her experiences would suggest that PoC might feel that way.<br /><br />The problem for me on a personal level is that in some cases, there are certain issues where I don't fit in at all. I can't talk with other white women about them because I don't have a common experience to them and I feel unwelcome and othered in my discussions with them, similarly to what the OP talks about here. I feel like my commonalities are with black women, and their experiences match mine much more closely. While I realize my experiences aren't identical and there are certain parts I will never suffer because I'm white, I would feel much more comfortable having these conversations with black women than with other white women, but when I try to enter them, black women generally tell me to stop making it about me. And I get that, but I also feel like I'm not welcome anywhere as a result. <br /><br />This is a long way of saying that I guess I am a poor hand at expressing empathy or knowing the appropriate time to express empathy and if anyone has any insights on that.Pistolinanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-72479097619748011782009-10-08T16:40:54.728-07:002009-10-08T16:40:54.728-07:00@ bat machine
if you have to be the hostile black...@ bat machine<br /><br />if you have to be the hostile black woman, so be it. embrace it. even if it's only one time.<br /><br />at some point in time you (meaning 'we') have to say 'fuck it, let them think what they want, i'mma put their ass in check'7thnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-40829065425733773252009-10-08T16:30:07.687-07:002009-10-08T16:30:07.687-07:00Oh, and RVC, I completly agree with your thoughts ...Oh, and RVC, I completly agree with your thoughts about the irony of this thread.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.com