tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post4149632185807185001..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: get too comfortable with their non-white friendsmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger86125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-35095601052203018022011-12-18T23:15:32.918-08:002011-12-18T23:15:32.918-08:00Youre lucky no white people will be my friend. I ...Youre lucky no white people will be my friend. I used to have some all they did was make fun of my skin color than or did anything to impress eachother I realized im only good around them if they need someone to make fun of.raphaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08197581190526740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58759731214673981192010-05-06T15:01:32.856-07:002010-05-06T15:01:32.856-07:00Nicole...I'll say this as nicely as possible. ...Nicole...I'll say this as nicely as possible. You've missed the point completely.<br /><br />I'm curious...where are you from? Because there are VERY few places in the world, let alone the United States, where race is not an issue.<br /><br />I, too, grew up in a "diverse" and "multicultural" environment. And you know what? Racism is still there. It is still a problem. <br /><br />I attended schools with kids who made it clear that they wanted nothing to do with me because I was different. I was a POC, I was shy, my hair was too "ethnic", my skin was too light for some people and too dark for others, and I was not considered beautiful...which is often codified in terms of whiteness. <br /><br />As a young biracial woman, I'm very aware of how society perceives me. I would also like to add to what some other people have said here about the "Angry Black Woman" stereotype. Do some black women act this way in real life? Yes. I've witnessed it. To say otherwise would be false. <br /><br />However, I've noticed some WW and other women of color (besides black) acting in the same manner. No one stereotypes them in this fashion. Unfortunately, most people will remember the loud obnoxious Black women while dismissing all of the quiet, soft-spoken Black women. <br /><br />I find that I have to be very careful with how I come across. I'm tiny, only 4'11". I'm very non-threatening. But people seem to be constantly accusing me of having an "attitude". I've been hearing this nonsense since I was a kid. I am not loud. I am not aggressive. I do not act the fool, because my mother taught me better. I try to carry myself with class. I don't bother people. I respect others. I am shy, quiet, and reserved which is sometimes viewed as being "stuck-up". I will only lose my cool when my patience runs out. <br /><br />With that said...where is the evidence that I have a bad attitude? I believe some people simply want to label EVERY Black woman as a bitch with a bad attitude. It isn't fair, because rudeness is not limited to anyone of a certain race or color.BrownEyedBeautynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-48711475973216263722010-04-07T17:46:19.769-07:002010-04-07T17:46:19.769-07:00Let me suggest an alternative way of thinking abou...Let me suggest an alternative way of thinking about it. First, I agree with the notion that if you have to walk on eggshells, then you can never really be comfortable, and the relationship will always be strained. I don't agree that we "should" be more uncomfortable about such comments because our friends are of another race. I could make the argument that that itself is racism. If I'm coddling you because I don't want to offend you, but I would tell a joke comfortably around a white person, why would you want such a friend?<br /><br />Having said that, let's turn the tables a bit. Rufus, could a black friend have made the same comment with no reaction from you? If a black friend had made the same joke, might you have laughed? If yes, could that in itself be a form of racism on YOUR part...that your black friends are welcome to the joke but not your white friends?<br /><br />I'm from a place where we've been comfortable with race for a long, long time. I grew up in a multicultural environment and I was in my 20s before I had any idea Hispanics were even a different race from me. I can remember making racial jokes back and forth at my friends and back at me since childhood. It's only recently that I feel like I'm freakishly wrong if I do that. I'm supposed to suddenly treat cultural diversity like a dirty secret. I don't need new ways to be uncomfortable.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07327721561548904085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82269337789690952452010-02-10T15:06:20.680-08:002010-02-10T15:06:20.680-08:00jas0nburns: I think if you're sincere in your ...jas0nburns: I think if you're sincere in your desire to learn more, the best thing you can do is read other posts on this blog (and racialicious.com) AND the comments -- and do a lot of that reading before trying to engage.<br /><br />Back to the general discussion...<br /><br />Thanks for the topic--I don't always have time to read the comments on this blog, but wanted to do so this time because I know I (as a white person) have done this.<br /><br />While I understand the point that with friends you should be able to Be Yourself, if you're a caring person, then it IS Being Yourself to watch your language/jokes. As one person pointed out, you can call a white guy "boy", but never a black guy. Following that rule doesn't mean you're not able to Be Yourself, it means Yourself is a respectful/sensitive person. You care enough to respect boundaries, and to allow POC to correct you when you make a mistake.<br /><br />My husband and I (both white) have been watching Chappelle's Show dvds, and right after an episode we'll repeat the jokes to each other, but I wouldn't randomly do this with anyone else because the context is gone. (And yes, Chappelle did get out of the business in part because he started to suspect some white people were laughing for the wrong reasons.)<br /><br />Of course, there are other jokes you should never make, around anyone, because they perpetuate a stereotype, or are flat-out mega racist. By mega-racist I'm thinking of the time a coworker "joked" that there aren't a lot of black swimmers because their lips slow them down in the water.<br /><br />As for how to handle it, I guess that depends on the environment, the joke, and your own comfort level. In the above example, I told the guy to fuck off. But when a white friend of mine heard a 17 year old white girl use the N word once, he was shocked but realized it was something she'd picked up from popular culture--so he took her to one side and gently explained to her how WRONG it was for her to use the word.<br /><br />But one way or another, it should be addressed. If a friend came to me 2 months after I'd made a bad comment, I'd still welcome the feedback. There's no statute of limitations.London Mabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04344685160375710889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-56607937533190408812010-02-08T08:40:19.692-08:002010-02-08T08:40:19.692-08:00@Willow Thanks, I've read those. I think where...@Willow Thanks, I've read those. I think where we differ is I have a higher threshold for what should be taken seriously and what I laugh off. In my peer group, we regularly rib one another about our differences. I was /not/ saying the POC in this situation was just as bad because she might have thought it funny about some other group of people, I was (poorly) trying to illustrate that, when I read this, I thought the "angry black woman" was not the intended subject of the joke.<br /><br />I do appreciate your first point though: since the joke made the POC uncomfortable, that does mean it crossed the line. I remembered an ex-friend who used to drive me up the wall when he said "that's gay" about everything. After he started, I didn't like it when he made jokes about gay stereotypes to me and I stopped putting myself in social settings he was attending.<br /><br />@Rufus I think you hit the nail on the head. I re-read your story and gained better understanding of how it played out. I didn't pick up from your description if she understood what she was apologizing for- not just her comment but the implications and effects it had- which is why I wondered if it damaged the friendship. I'm glad you valued the friendship enough to address the offense rather than ignoring it; out of curiosity, did you talk about marginalization when you talked? You said she apologized and that was pretty much that and I wonder if you missed an opportunity to discuss a larger racial dynamic with her that might have actually brought you closer still through her new appreciation and understanding?Fousheezyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02550504590730678810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-30006726212497922632010-02-07T18:21:15.904-08:002010-02-07T18:21:15.904-08:00I'm a little late to this thread, but some of ...I'm a little late to this thread, but some of what's said here makes so much sense. I wondered why I'm okay with some (white) friends making certain jokes and not with other (white) friends. And yeah, it depends on whether or not I trust that they 'get it'. And this is awesome. It applies so well to some past incidents: <br /><br /><i>And I've also made a new rule. I will not joke with any white friend about race stuff if they can't also talk about it in a real manner."</i><br /><br /><i>a white person's comment will be like a drive-by, and I won't realize what's happened until ten minutes later, at which point the conversation's moved on.</i><br /><br />I've done this so many times. I'll have a gut feeling that something isn't right, but can't quite put my finger on it until days later sometimes. Or, I'll be so shocked that I freeze, or laugh. And one of the trickiest one for me was when the person saying the racist stuff/joke was a poc (who hangs out almost exclusively with white ppl) because I'm not sure how to deal with the possible, 'But I can't be racist, I'm [insert ethnicity]' defense.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-90283905758463831862010-02-05T07:10:06.093-08:002010-02-05T07:10:06.093-08:00or are you saying there is no truth to any of it a...or are you saying there is no truth to any of it and it's all just a comedian capitalizing on a reinforcement of stereotypes that are falase and detrimental and mostly created by white people being too lazy to get to know anyone who's not white.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-78530936809101481982010-02-05T06:06:57.722-08:002010-02-05T06:06:57.722-08:00so in that chappelle show skit called white people...so in that chappelle show skit called white people dancing, where he was breaking down the musical tastes of different racial groups and illustrating that white people like guitars, black people like drums, latin americans like drums with electric piano. obviously if there wasn't a seed of truth or recognition it wouldn't have been funny.<br /><br />i was like yeah white people do that hahaha even though i personally hate electric guitar.<br /><br />but i guess it's part of white privilege to be able to laugh at a stereotype of you racial group, see how it may or may not apply to you personally. and not really be affected by it personally either way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-36006213869188638442010-02-05T06:01:40.271-08:002010-02-05T06:01:40.271-08:00regarding "the difference" that karinova...regarding "the difference" that karinova and Eileen2000 are talking about<br /><br />I'm thinking the difference has a lot to do with who's making the original joke. I can't figure out how to explain what I mean so I'm probably going to ramble. What I want to say is that karinova, when you and your friend joke around and you feel comfortable with her that way, it's probably (please correct me if I'm wrong) because you yourself have set that boundary. She didn't take it upon herself to set that boundary for both of you by just throwing out a random comment and waiting for your reaction. Somewhere along the line you told her what was ok - probably not literally sat down and said, "Hey, we can make these specific jokes together." But she sounds like a really good friend who probably has patiently let you set up the structure for that in layers as it was comfortable for you. That's exactly what I think should happen in every friendship, but it's imperative in one that is white/non-white. <br /><br />And I think that is what's fundamental in "the difference". A comedian making the joke is often taken as an official figure from the culture of which he or she is speaking. WP commonly take the fact that the person is making these jokes and observations in public or on TV as an ok for them to do it too. They/We think it was funny so it's ok to pass that joke along and make someone else laugh. Except that WP are forgetting that the comedian was given the ok when everyone paid admission to see him/her perform, or when we turned the channel to watch them. We can revoke that "ok" when they cross a line by leaving or changing the channel. When it happens in real life, the people on the receiving end of the joke are not consensual to it. It's dropped like a stink bomb attached to a grenade, with the grenade not going off until much later when the WP is long gone.<br /><br />What I've gleaned from most, if not all, of the comments from PoC with white friends who have varying levels of permission to make certain jokes is that the white friend(s) stood back and let their friend of color decide what was ok and what wasn't. In most cases, the white friend didn't try to control the pace at which that happened. It seems that when the white friend tries to set the structure or control the pace, they hurt their friends (and people they're just getting to know) in the process. Does that seem like a plausible theory?Victoriahttp://vintagelux.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-13230591313918637632010-02-05T00:09:18.290-08:002010-02-05T00:09:18.290-08:00In Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shuffle,&...In Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shuffle," the protagonist is frustrated during a casting call because the white director/writer is looking for an Eddie Murphy type. The piece depicts black hopefuls brushing up on their best Eddie Murphy routine because Eddie is what the white casting director interprets as genuinely Black. Later he is shown rehearsing a scene where they wanted him to “Act Blacker.” Stick your butt out more, strut and do that walk you people do. In other words, the white person in charge will speak as if he is an authority on the black experience: I know black people and you’re not acting black enough. (You don’t fit my view) So now, if the struggling actor wants to get paid he must acquiesce. He must defer to the narrow view the white director has defined for him if he wants the job. This only serves to reinforce the stereotype the white man had of him in the first place. “Ahhh there you go, now you're acting black.”<br /><br />If you’ve ever seen the animated sitcom Family Guy where the black character’s wife (Cleveland) shifts her neck 90 degree laterally before she forms a single syllable. Now at some point some white person on staff has seen (or heard of) a black woman doing this and again, applies it across the board. However I must add (and I might catch some flak for this) if there are common white tendencies, (aptly pointed out on this blog) one can naturally assume there can be common black tendencies. I’m sure somewhere in this cyber-universe some moderator is compiling a list of, stuff “Some” black people do- or like.” <br />Example: <a href="http://stuffblackpeoplelikealso.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Here</a> and <a href="http://stuffblackpeoplehate.com/" rel="nofollow">Here.</a><br /><br />Chris Rock, Sinbad- Cedric the entertainer-- Bill Cosby and Richard Pryor; have spoken about common black behaviors with some authority (airing black laundry we call it.) Now everyone may not agree with the black comedian's assessment of "some of us," but as the camera pans you will see blacks nodding their heads, looking at each other in confirmation; laughing all the while. Whites again see this and other examples (like the Dave Chappelle's show) and figure I don't have to get to know blacks personally. Everything I need to know about them comes wrapped up in popular culture- rap/hip-hop videos and sites like <a href="http://www.hotghettomess.com/" rel="nofollow">This.</a><br /><br />If some black women are angry they are angry because of white oppression- angry at the level of white privilege they are forced to deal with on a dally basis. Consequently- a white person’s inability to either understand or empathize, will naturally interpret her emotion in the negative. Some Whites will regularly invalidate her feelings by dismissing her right to be angry; saying she’s all worked up over nothing. Telling her to calm down, and then try to explain her anger away as if they were on a debate team. Course this has the affect of just making her and the rest of us all the more irate. <br /><br />I’ve been married to the same black woman for 28 years and I can’t ever recall her shifting her neck before she speaks to me, either in jest or in anger. So when whites point out things to us they assume to be “common black behaviors” we must be forgiving and acknowledge we have been complicit to a degree. Whites observe this behavior in some of us and to them it becomes gospel; it doesn't just define a few but rather, it defines the whole. It can become frustrating to them to know that we all don’t act the same way, Eat the same thing; Listen to the same music and so on. But to some whites, one size does fit all.M. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412079628160690200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18872858815502190372010-02-04T21:44:43.548-08:002010-02-04T21:44:43.548-08:00@jas0nburns,
I think you might be sincere, so I...@jas0nburns,<br />I think you might be sincere, so I'm going to risk it. First of all, we all know the stereotype you're talking about. It <i>is</i> erroneously/maliciously associated with black culture (and at least one other marginalized group that I can think of; can you guess it?). However, it's certainly not inherent to black people or anyone else. I don't know how old you are, but if you recognize the phrase "kiss my grits!" you should know that. In fact, I think most people know that. But they like the stereotype.<br /><br />Second, there's a difference between merely noting a stereotype, uncritically laughing at it, and laughing ruefully at it. See <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yzshyqe" rel="nofollow">my previous comment</a>.<br /><br />Third: <i>"I had no prior knowledge of stereotypes to reinforce. and i had no opinions either."</i><br />Highly unlikely. Did you watch TV, see movies, listen to popular music, read books or magazines and/or see advertising of any kind? Then you had prior knowledge of stereotypes. (How old were you had some idea of what a "man" was? How'd you get those ideas?) Don't believe me? Check out <a href="http://diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/1301/" rel="nofollow">The Doll Test</a>— warning, that video will break your heart, if you have one. Do you know that current research idicates that unless something is actively done to prevent it, kids can begin to develop racist attitudes <a href="http://www.newsweek.com/id/214989" rel="nofollow">as early as age <i>three?</i></a> Consider this your first day outside the Matrix.<br /><br />And finally: <i>"I was not able to interact well because i didn't understand that culture. beyond the surface stuff we're all aware of i can't say much about black culture."</i><br />This black woman thinks you should focus more on white culture. I'm serious. That will help you interact better. So it's a good thing you found this place! I think you should take some time to read some previous posts <i>and pay special attention to the comment threads.</i> And, um... accept help when it's offered. <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/run-when-going-gets-tough.html" rel="nofollow">It won't always be easy.</a> Good luck!karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76332879892267957282010-02-04T20:50:59.916-08:002010-02-04T20:50:59.916-08:00Eminem has a line in one of his songs, "a lot...Eminem has a line in one of his songs, "a lot of truth is said in jest..." and he's right.<br /><br />I think for some POCs, we know that and so we hesitate to assume that when a white person says something that's potentially racist, in a joking way, that they truly are joking. Even with friends -- you just don't want to let something slip by you because it can be a slippery slope.A.Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10542810587986768786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-42342949305843376542010-02-04T20:05:11.414-08:002010-02-04T20:05:11.414-08:00Eileen2000 said:
"I am also confused about wh...Eileen2000 said:<br /><i>"I am also confused about what is off-limits after watching comedians, both of color and white, address race and culture. I know intuitively jokes that seem racist to me and others that don't but I can't always define what the difference is."</i><br /><br />I've been thinking about the "difference."<br />As I said, I have a friend I can joke with about "inappropriately, and I think the difference is that we never just state some stereotype and call it funny; our jokes are always sarcastic/satiric/critical. The whole "joke" is: "can you believe the bullshit we have to put up with?!" There's always an eyeroll of solidarity in there.<br /><br />Y'know how sometimes people use humor to express their true-but-unacceptable feelings? IMO, most [oppressed class] jokes, when told by a person of that group, are a combo of that, and laughing-lest-you-cry: what I call "ain't-that-a-<i>bitch?</i>" humor. The unacceptable feeling is usually anger and/or pain. Kat Williams comes to mind. He's hilarious, but make no mistake, he is super pissed. But as a BM, he's only got about two socially acceptable ways to scream "this shit is <i>fucked!"</i> in public. He chose comedy.<br /><br />This is why I think it's generally a pretty bad idea for WP to just repeat ethnic jokes, etc.; jokes like that are only funny when, as thesciencegirl said, everybody "gets" that it's not <i>just</i> a joke. As I understand it, this is essentially why Dave Chappelle quit the biz. Too many people— of all colors, but probably mostly white— assuming they got it, when they clearly <i>didn't.</i> You can't jokingly say "ain't that a bitch?!" when you <i>are</i> the bitch.karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-80814309820085807662010-02-04T20:03:17.185-08:002010-02-04T20:03:17.185-08:00@jas0nburns.
"but i guess i can't really...@jas0nburns.<br /><br />"but i guess i can't really see the difference between a stereotype and something that is just part of any groups culture."<br />Your idea of Black culture is a stereotype you've created in your own head.It doesn't exist in the way that you imagine it does. White privilege takes away your ability to see things as they truly are.<br /><br />"i meant the style of speaking that is exclusive to black women that are angry. particularly the accent, hand gestures, facial expressions, that only black women use when angry."<br />O.K. You have observed a women who was angry who happened to be black and have decided that this must be a cultural phenomena. Right. I'm 48 years old and have lived my entire life in L.A. and never once observed "an angry black women".I have observed people in the real world who when they got angry used a "particular accent, hand gestures, facial expressions" to express themselves and it had nothing to do with what race they were and everything to do with them being a human being.<br />UMM... that's how human beings react.<br />The "angery Black women" to me is an urban legend that the media exploits.<br /><br />"and i can tell you that there is a such thing as black culture because while i was there i saw that every black person around me spoke in a similar way and dressed in a similar way, they were able to communicate and cooperate with each other in a way i could not."<br />All that means is that you don't know how to talk and that you have no sense of style.The world seems to be "cooperating" around you and your confused.Maybe it's your world view thats the problem because in the real world Black people don't dress the same.<br />People don't dress because of culture.People dress because a particular style appeals to them.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985247445476558468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65237487645975988992010-02-04T19:11:31.437-08:002010-02-04T19:11:31.437-08:00i was being serious saying thank you. i know it...i was being serious saying thank you. i know it's not anyones job to try to help or educate me so i appreciate the help. not surprised you are suspicious though. it's just hard to accept that you are considered racist. it's harder to accept you are racist. so sorry about the derail i'll stop now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70653853721086800852010-02-04T19:08:07.921-08:002010-02-04T19:08:07.921-08:00I don't mind at all, Karen L, quite the opposi...I don't mind at all, Karen L, quite the opposite. I think you and others here who've been trying to help out jas0nburns have been incredibly patient and generous. I would add <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/08/wonder-where-to-start-when-they-join.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> to his reading list. Best of luck coming to grips with your whiteness, jas0nburns.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76055746497022477682010-02-04T19:00:33.640-08:002010-02-04T19:00:33.640-08:00@jas0nburns. You're doing a fair bit of two st...@jas0nburns. You're doing a fair bit of two steps forward, one step back. Because seriously:<br /><br /><i>come on. seriously are we not going to get beyond that?</i><br /><br />is really rich coming from a white guy who recently asked to know where his privilege is. <br /><br />You sound frustrated; so, I can't actually tell if you're being 10% or 90% sarcastic with:<br /><br /><i>thanks for trying to help me though.</i><br /><br />Because it seems to me that you are getting quite a bit of appreciation and constructive responses. <br /><br />About the frustration about not knowing what to do with your new-found privilege. Here's a post that you might like: <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/run-when-going-gets-tough.html?showComment=1263630845218#c6986406649393573747" rel="nofollow"> run when the going gets tough </a>.<br />And a couple of specific comments in that thread for what you CAN do:<br /><a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/run-when-going-gets-tough.html?showComment=1263630845218#c6986406649393573747" rel="nofollow"> by karinova </a> and <br /><a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/run-when-going-gets-tough.html?showComment=1263358652258#c3254812305910899976" rel="nofollow"> by Zara </a><br /><br />Anyway, I don't know if you've been directed to Derailing For Dummies yet. If not, it's pretty much inevitable that any WP trying to figure out what that means (hope you don't mind, macon) will derail some conversation about race or will be tempted to derail. Reading <a href="http://www.derailingfordummies.com/" rel="nofollow">Derailing For Dummies</a> was really eye-opening for me. Hopefully, it'll help you, too.Karen Lnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12892814950488266122010-02-04T18:31:51.018-08:002010-02-04T18:31:51.018-08:00@jas0nburns
Are you done? 'Cause I'm pre...@jas0nburns<br /><br />Are you done? 'Cause I'm pretty tired of hearing about your problems, your childhood, your upbringing, you, you, you. It started out as your feigned ignorance about how Angry Black Woman is insulting to end up with you using your ol' Everclear Father of Mine lyrical childhood as some sort of evidence to support how right you are and an excuse for your racist behavior. The only thing standing in the way of you dismantling your racism is you. You came over here with that "you can't tell me shit" attitude and, surprise, no one could tell you shit.Victoriahttp://vintagelux.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-8473658625741650072010-02-04T17:54:33.627-08:002010-02-04T17:54:33.627-08:00also i'd have to be super dense and about as c...also i'd have to be super dense and about as clueless as you all think to grow up in a black neighborhood and not have any black friends and not know that black people are diverse as flakes of snow. come on. seriously are we not going to get beyond that?<br /><br />robot voice: me white male robot. me think every black person same. individuality does not compute. beep brrrrrrr. sparks, smolder.<br /><br />i feel like your ignoring the gist and trying to find semantic mistakes that betray the true racist inside me. <br /><br />thanks for trying to help me though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-60779378322953709622010-02-04T17:45:04.073-08:002010-02-04T17:45:04.073-08:00m. gibson that was quite beautifully said. but i h...m. gibson that was quite beautifully said. but i have had lots of black friends including a girlfriend because in practice i do just what you say i should do. (and she never got mad at me until after we broke up) i'm not saying that to prove i'm not racist i'm just saying so because everyone is assuming i couldn't possibly have any<br /><br />i know "we are the same as you" thats why i feel like the culture thing gets in the way just like it would between you and....<br /><br />oh yeah what happens when two POC from different cultures have trouble relating to one another and there arn't any white people around to blame? is there a blog for that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-88957584776249971402010-02-04T17:34:01.992-08:002010-02-04T17:34:01.992-08:00takemullato back you made a huge amount of assumpt...takemullato back you made a huge amount of assumptions in that post. I did not imply i was an expert. i did not say i was an expert. i don't think i am an expert and said so. i never said that i could define black culture. i never said that all AA are loud or anything else. you want to make it seem like i think all black people are the same. if you need to put words in my mouth to frame your argument than don't bother. if you have to make shit up i must be doing ok or else you wouldn't have to.<br /><br />i see what your saying about the get around the racial shit thing tho. i know it's a luxury the idea i could do that and POC can't. so thats it then? i have this privilege and i cant do anything about it so just accept that it's a crappy situation for everyone but less so for me. thats like in full metal jacket when private pyle gets to eat doughnuts when everyone else is doing pushups. and it's wrong to feel like i can do something about it because thats white privilege as well. it's hard to accept something like that.<br /><br />and i did build great friendships with my neighbors. the best i've ever had as a matter of fact. normally i wouldn't bust out the "i have black friends" thing but since you say i am incapable of that.....i was picked on a lot at that time and i had a friend who was a few years older and black who was unbelieveable in the way he stuck up for me and protected me. i wish to god i knew where he was now because nobody has ever shown me more kindness and love. he was the best friend i ever had by miles and miles. i could go on and on thanks for reminding me i hadn't thought of him for awhile. <br /><br />a note on rhythm, thats funny you say that because a while back one of my black friends said that i was the blackest white person he knew. at the time i just took it as a compliment and laughed it off. but after reading this blog i asked him yesterday if he meant that and what he meant by that. to which he replied "it was a compliment, cause you got rhythm and soul" but i guess that statement would have been racist out of my mouth because i'm not supposed to be able to see that most black people have rhythm. i would have been defining black culture and seeing black people as a monolith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71043715565041804982010-02-04T16:58:32.735-08:002010-02-04T16:58:32.735-08:00jas0nburns said...
"I'm here because i&#...jas0nburns said... <br />"I'm here because i'm trying to find out something that's going to show me why i can't relate to the black people around me. i really want to be able to do that at some point."<br /><br />I’m thinking maybe if you strive to view us as people first and not as Black primarily; you might be off to a good start. As long as you see us as- those black people over there, or the black people around me (you sound like Custer,) the gulf between you and us will remain. <br /><br />And please don't do what George Costanza did when he tried to prove to his boss he had black friends, and hence not racist. Approaching every black person he came in contact with, often with less than desirable results. You almost sound like Jane Goodall to me; is it really that hard for you to relate to us? Must you study us in our natural habitat, jotting down notes before you venture to know us? We blacks come in contact with whites every single day, so getting to know you is not a problem for us. Shame it’s not that easy the other way round.<br /><br />Allow me to re-write a line from Shakespeare's, The Merchant of Venice: "I am a Black person. Hath not a black person eyes? Hath not a black person hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a White person? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that." <br /><br />We are the same as you- get to know us as human beings first and the rest will follow. But you must put in the work not us. Want to know about us? Unlearn everything you’ve come to know about us via that strict- unforgiving- arrogant white male lens of yours. Once you do that you will come to discover black people are as diverse as the flakes of snow that fall from heaven.M. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412079628160690200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32126368896132354562010-02-04T16:29:32.460-08:002010-02-04T16:29:32.460-08:00@jasOnburns
I appreciate your self-reflection and...@jasOnburns<br /><br />I appreciate your self-reflection and exploration as it relates to your relationships with PoC. <br /><br />I think I may have found (one of)the fundamental issues...<br /><br />"i think it's so lame that i can't interact with more POC because i feel that i'm missing out. it just seems like a waste because people are just people and i want to know if there's some way to get around all this racial shit that just gets in the way imo."<br /><br />Okay, I can not speak for every PoC- but this statement is a BIG FAT RED FLAG that you DO NOT GET IT. Your statement is, in essence, the assertion of white privilege. Only whites have the ability to "get around all this racial shit"- none of the rest of us have that option. Just recognizing that as reality is a start…<br /><br />Living in an AA neighborhood does not make you a de facto expert on the culture. To make a statement to the contrary is disrespectful. Obviously you did not build the cultural competency effectively build relationships with your neighbors. This indicates an obvious lack of understanding; one can not attempt to ascribe a characteristic to something they do not have experience in or understand. (Side note- when we explain to a WP that they are not in fact experts in everything- including AA culture- and they refuse to admit that perhaps we as AA have more experience in the matter that too is a BIG FAT RED FLAG. And often a deal breaker.<br /><br />Are these types of statements the reason you are so familiar with the attitude of some displeased AA women? Just wondering... <br /><br />If you truly want to foster relationships with PoC, instead of trying to "get around" it, you <br />should work to improve and understand the effects white privilege on your life; how white privilege impacts the lives of PoCs- particularly the ones you encounter; and how that dynamic impacts your relationships with PoC. <br /><br />And on a separate note- saying all AA are loud is just like saying all WP have no rhythm... Although you may have observed this phenomenon on multiple occasions, it is unfair (and more importantly, incorrect) to think that all WP are burdened with this same affliction.TakeMulattoBackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08418653736897074548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79612078622791625322010-02-04T16:00:11.003-08:002010-02-04T16:00:11.003-08:00@jas0n:
No, there is no way to get around all the...@jas0n:<br /><br />No, there is no way to get around all the ways that race impacts everyone. I'm very new here, and from what I've read here and elsewhere, race is always a factor. As WP, we tend to be oblivious to how omnipresent it is in all our interactions, because we have the privilege of getting to ignore it. The best that any of us can do is try to understand the ways that our race impacts our interactions and relationships with others, try to minimize that impact, and then learn and sincerely apologize when we inevitably fuck up.<br /><br />"Black people" aren't a monolith, btw. If you can't relate to certain people who happen to be black, that could be due to a number of things, none of which have to do with "black culture" and your exclusion from it. White privilege and unconscious racism on the other hand, might have a great deal to do with it.NoDak608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65395430058591718292010-02-04T15:55:24.829-08:002010-02-04T15:55:24.829-08:00@jas0nburns re: "it was during that time that...@jas0nburns re: "it was during that time that the idea of black american culture was formed in my head. it was formed through submersion in black culture. I had no prior knowledge of stereotypes to reinforce. and i had no opinions either. it just was."<br /><br />Even in a 90% black neighborhood, you were raised in the context of a racialized society, and you could not have escaped the messages of the larger white culture around you. That neighborhood was also what it was because of the context it was in: a white supremacist (and patriarchal and imperialist) culture. You did not live in isolation from that despite your immediate surroundings, and I would argue that your opinions of the black people around you were in fact shaped by that context.<br /><br />As for the people are just people plea, I'm sure it's covered in Derailing for Dummies. What I ask is this: Don't people, even disregarding race, represent a huge variety of beliefs, customs, physical characteristics and so on? Why can't all of those differences be acknowledged and appreciated? What's to gain (except for the dominant group) in imagining that our differences are irrelevant (if that's what you mean)?blogloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465639610604161309noreply@blogger.com