tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post7815341737717314012..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: go on ghetto toursmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26755465017877854652010-01-24T12:29:47.596-08:002010-01-24T12:29:47.596-08:00this is so not cool!! its like mocking peoples liv...this is so not cool!! its like mocking peoples lives. the ppl. who are buying these tickets know not to go into the ghetto so why pay $65? how about with the $65, you take one of these so called "ghetto families" out to dinner and ask them, questions your seeking. Or how about you take these children to Beverly Hills and give them the encouragement they need to get out of the ghetto and live better. Come on ppl. think before you react and try the next scaming way to make money!din dinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-1916581948339494592009-12-19T21:18:04.752-08:002009-12-19T21:18:04.752-08:00Why do people keep wondering what the reaction wou...Why do people keep wondering what the reaction would be if busloads of poor POC lookie-loos showed up in wealthy white areas? The thing that seems so problematic about "ghetto tours" is the idea that they'd be "pity tours" or "superiority trips." That doesn't come up when you truck Comptonites into Brentwood. (If anything, I suspect they'd generally be happy to be on display, and see it as only right.) No, the nearest possible equivalent would be to bring vanloads of well-off gawkers of color into some poor white area. Not sure how that would go over, but I doubt it would go well.<br /><br />I'm a POC. I'm certainly not rich, but I've been known to spend $65+ on a concert ticket, so I could afford a "trailer park whirlwind tour" or whatever. But no <i>way</i> would I go on one. For one thing, I'm just not that kind of traveler. I prefer full immersion. To paraphrase Henry Rollins, why would you want to experience the world through smoked glass?<br /><br />For another, I'm originally from Jamaica, and I've had plenty of well-off white people who stayed at Sandals Montego Bay or something once, 20 years ago,* break out that pearl-clutching, head-shaking "Oh, it was <i>beautiful!</i> But the people— *gasp!*— they're <i>so pooor!</i> We made sure to buy some of their native handicrafts at a local market." (displays crappy "no problem, mon" tchotchke). I always want to say, guess what? Jamaica has whole areas full of wealthy people. Duh. You just didn't see them, because a) they don't happen to live on the route between the airport, hotel and tourist-trap market, which is all you saw; b) they're rich enough to keep random tourists out; and c) you weren't that interested in seeing them, anyway— the poor ones are so much more <i>authentic,</i> right?<br />So... yeah. Wouldn't want to be like those people.<br /><br />____<br />*Or they just got back from Guatemala. That was a popular destination back in the 90s. Also Bali. Seriously, I've heard this kind of thing many, many times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38209284339572384182009-12-15T06:57:35.749-08:002009-12-15T06:57:35.749-08:00@Witchsistah - Let me guess: You're talking ab...@Witchsistah - Let me guess: You're talking about the Crossroads section downtown (closer to SW Boulevard) or maybe the 39th Street/Valentine area, right? I grew up in KC, and I recognize your experience all too well. In fact, my mother spent most of my generally happy childhood sucking her teeth every time someone mentioned the fabled "Johnson County" in casual conversation or on the news. The way folks described it, you would've thought Thomas Kinkade, Hello Kitty, unicorns and the Knights of the Round Table lived there. Mom's favorite line: "White folks moved out there to get away from us, but crime happens all the time out that way, too. You just don't see THAT on the news." <br /><br />I haven't compared line-by-line crime or quality-of-life stats between the two areas, but I do know the city and its tax base are continue to suffer from the legacy of "white flight." Still, as you just described, there have always been viable, well-maintained communities within the city. Many like the one I grew up in bordered struggling neighborhoods (black, white, Latino) or had collapsed, although not the way we've seen in places like Detroit. In any case, my parents and I lived in the central city a few blocks east Troost Avenue, long considered the "official dividing line" between black and white Kansas City, and it's inner ring suburbs to the west in Kansas. Listening and reading the news at the time, you would've thought it was Bantu land, though our neighborhood was still "mixed," with blacks dominating most of it.<br /><br />I can't break down Kansas City's entire race and housing history here (), but I will say this: As I later prepared to sell my parents' home, what angered me the most was the blatant devaluation of properties, even in areas near ours that had been well-maintained. After a while, I just couldn't buy the idea that it was just talk (or evidence) of "crime," but alas, I'm not a economist, nor am I a sociologist. I can only imagine how annoyed I'd be with some tour group barreling through my community, but I can't say I'm totally against the idea if it's done with care to make people parse the ill-informed ideas rattling around in their heads about the communities they're visiting. True, some may never come away better educated, just like in that poignant Doonesbury cartoon, but I imagine some might. Heh, as a community member, I'd at least make the tour company help pay for my precious streets and sidewalks. :)Royalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-35769295711720737662009-12-14T04:59:46.718-08:002009-12-14T04:59:46.718-08:00How much do you want to bet some of the same anti-...How much do you want to bet some of the same anti-racists who disdain these tours would go on a slum tour in Jo'Burg or Rio though? Seriously.Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792137126898623243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-35354138595377844212009-12-13T17:27:54.491-08:002009-12-13T17:27:54.491-08:00>> "Interesting that your seeing only o...>> <i>"Interesting that your seeing only one side of the discussion would somehow "make your day." Why is that so? Do you even know me? I just started posting here."</i><br /><br />What "made my day" was the way in which Macon phrased his reply. I am have a crappy day, and he made me laugh.<br /><br />If you look at my past posts here, you will see that I regularly acknowledge it when I find something particularly funny.<br /><br />My intention was not to make fun of you, but I absolutely see how it could be taken that way. (And, at any rate, in anti-oppression discussion intentionality doesn't matter, hehe, right? :P ) I am sorry.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52803722072776085592009-12-13T16:41:49.561-08:002009-12-13T16:41:49.561-08:00That's a bit better, Peppers, and if you'r...That's a bit better, Peppers, and if you're going to continue trying to post comments here, then I appreciate your efforts to post ones likely to be deemed a contribution, rather than a derailment.<br /><br />Regarding your question about "this blog's accusation that white people go on ghetto tours," one thing you could do is read more carefully before you post. That is -- the post doesn't make that "accusation." It instead <b>asks</b>, "what kind of white people will go on these ghetto tours? What or whom will they be looking for, and how close do they really want to get to that? Why do they want to get so close (but not, you know, too close)?" The post expresses my doubt about the efficacy of these tours for a lot of white tourists, given the obstinate stereotypes that many white people still carry about those who live in what still get called "ghettos." <br /><br />You also just asked what was wrong with your rejected comment that mentioned Asian tourists, and you wrote:<br /><br /><i>I stated that such a tour would likely be more popular amongst Asian tourists, who have a romanticized view of American black people and their secret lives thanks in large part to Hollywood.</i><br /> <br />No, that's not what you stated. Here's everything you wrote about "Asian tourists" in that part of your rejected comment:<br /><br /><i>In all probability, these "ghetto tours" will probably be far more popular with Asian tourists.</i><br /><br />That's off topic, and it's a common form of derailment in discussions of things white people do (or in this case, will do) because it claims there's something of value to be added to the discussion by pointing at others and saying, "but look, they do it too!" Beginners are welcome here, but not if they're going to try to function at an elementary school level. <br /><br />Now, if you <b>had</b> focused on Hollywood's racist imagery as a potential influence on Asian tourists' imaginations (racist imagery that also infects American imaginations, including white ones), then you'd be onto something more related to the topic of the post, and of the blog. <br /><br />So, if you do want to take part here, just keep in mind that the topic is stuff white people do. Detours into similar things that other people do, or supposedly do, are basically irrelevant (unless, as noted above, that does have something to do with stuff white people do).macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-29058327093483574282009-12-13T16:20:31.457-08:002009-12-13T16:20:31.457-08:00macon said..."[Dear Peppers, this is a blog a...macon said..."[Dear Peppers, this is a blog about stuff white people do, not a blog about stuff Asian tourists do. Sincerely, macon]"<br /><br />Since you did not post my comment yesterday, I will try again:<br /><br />if this is a blog about what white people do, I asked you if you have actual data that supports this blog's accusation that white people go on ghetto tours? Clever Doonesbury comics from the 1970s do not count. Maybe they went on slumming tours back then, but what about white people in 2009? Do they still go on ghetto tours? I can't tell because you offer no proof.<br /><br />I stated that such a tour would likely be more popular amongst Asian tourists, who have a romanticized view of American black people and their secret lives thanks in large part to Hollywood.<br /><br />So what exactly is it about my post that you deemed was unworthy of printing? It is on topic and I don't think it's derailing, either.<br /><br />Willow said..."This made my day."<br /><br />Interesting that your seeing only one side of the discussion would somehow "make your day." Why is that so? Do you even know me? I just started posting here.Peppersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53878664906660153972009-12-13T13:56:22.479-08:002009-12-13T13:56:22.479-08:00>> "[Dear Peppers, this is a blog about...>> <i>"[Dear Peppers, this is a blog about stuff white people do, not a blog about stuff Asian tourists do. Sincerely, macon]"</i><br /><br />This made my day.<br /><br />Incidentally, Macon, I worked as a tour guide for a couple of summers, and I think "stuff white tourists do" could make a really stellar spin-off blog, if you ever have free time.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-48792448578454358792009-12-12T19:35:46.797-08:002009-12-12T19:35:46.797-08:00[Dear Peppers, this is a blog about stuff white pe...[Dear Peppers, this is a blog about stuff white people do, not a blog about stuff Asian tourists do. Sincerely, macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64696030977156920242009-12-10T16:13:56.518-08:002009-12-10T16:13:56.518-08:00Wow, to be on such a tour bus is to have a bullsey...Wow, to be on such a tour bus is to have a bullseye painted on your body. I can just see rightfully outraged gangsters performing a nonchalant drive-by aiming right at the bus. Talk about a death trap... and you've paid $65 for it.<br /><br />However, I can see those buses filled with foreigners, who tend to worship urban black culture. Hipster won't do the tour - they'll just hang around their white hipster coffee bars and talk about how racist this whole idea was...Tivomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13652513965736069435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-11023126667087140082009-12-10T08:28:31.554-08:002009-12-10T08:28:31.554-08:00I know there are existing tours of Harlem:
http:/...I know there are existing tours of Harlem:<br /><br />http://www.harlemheritage.com/<br /><br />and<br /><br />http://www.nytours.us/tours/tourType.cfm?ttid2=673<br /><br />White people are often brought up with a notion of "bad areas" of town--with "bad" often defined by the neighborhood residents being predominantly people of color. Once an area gets marked as "bad," non-residents don't just think, "I wouldn't want to live there" but also, "I wouldn't set foot there."<br /><br />Part of the frustration of living in one of those areas is the sense that you know its complexity--its sometimes very real dangers <i>and</i> its joys. <br /><br />When an area gets marked in the minds of whites as "bad," that seems to operate on a tipping point that often becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, as area businesses suffer and property values take a hit (and with them, schools do as well).<br /><br />So I can see where just getting whites to recognize an area as safe to <i>visit</i> can be a step toward some economic recovery that would benefit residents.<br /><br />Of course, the downside of this is that, again with the tipping point problem, when whites see an area as "good" again, it's often gentrified as whites move in and existing renters are pushed out (see President Clinton in Harlem).<br /><br />If something like this is going to work, it has to, I think, actively work against the "residents as spectacle."<br /><br />And it should avoid the historical approach that renders an area interesting <i>only</i> because interesting people <i>used</i> to live there but now don't (ie, a lot of the narratives I see talking about Harlem discuss it in terms of the Harlem Renaissance, jazz, vibrant life... then a period of deadness, which essentially dehumanizes all those who lived there before it got hip (ie, white) and gentrified again.<br /><br />Still, so much of it is a mess that I'm not sure it's possible. And the mess of it is made evident if you try to imagine busloads of black people being brought into, say, SOHO for a walking tour through the expensive boutiques.<br /><br />The asymmetry makes it hard to imagine these tours being something other than a nightmare.Miriam Heddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57704615957687167202009-12-10T05:49:47.156-08:002009-12-10T05:49:47.156-08:00@NorthboundtoLoop who said I wish that I could say...@NorthboundtoLoop who said <i>I wish that I could say that what I got out of our city tour is something that everyone else will get, but honestly that's not the truth.</i>:<br /><br />Amen. I grew up in suburbian southern California with very little exposure to black people other than what I saw on TV. Shortly after the 1992 riots, when I was twelve years old, my father took me on a driving tour through what was back then referred to as South Central. We drove and talked for several hours about racism, poverty, the cycle of economic segregation contributing to racist attitudes (which then continues to support economic segregation), and media stereotypes as versus reality. We saw buildings with no windows and broken doors, all tagged to shit; we saw nicely-maintained homes; we saw people hanging out on street corners eyeing our car; we saw people going about their daily business. I learned that day that South Central wasn't this land of rioters and gang members (and the innocent families of gang members caught in the crossfire); it was a place where people, normal <i>people</i>, lived. And I learned that those that do fall into those negative paths - drug dealing, being in gangs, etc. - do so not because there's anything inherently wrong with them; they do so because they have no other choices (or, in some cases, they feel they have no other choices due to being so psychologically beaten by the circumstances they face every day). It was an enlightening trip to say the least, and one I've never forgotten.<br /><br />Do I think that the tourists on these "ghetto tours" will be getting that kind of discussion, or taking those kinds of lessons away with them? No.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08775402675080387821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-7600993800735973672009-12-09T19:59:06.906-08:002009-12-09T19:59:06.906-08:00This has been going on at least since they gave to...This has been going on at least since they gave tours of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points,_Manhattan" rel="nofollow">Five Points</a> in the late 1800s and certainly was in full swing when they gave bus tours of "the bohemians" in Greenwich Village.Tyronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-56497664133057808792009-12-09T18:27:35.034-08:002009-12-09T18:27:35.034-08:00[Dear Jordan, thank you for your submitted comment...[Dear Jordan, thank you for your submitted comment to swpd. Unfortunately, its publication would constitute an offense to many readers here, namely, some of those further down the road of racism awareness than yourself.<br /><br />You see Jordan, knowing about, and/or having been subjected to, the blunt-yet-surgically precise force of today's de facto white supremacy in the U.S. makes it tiresome, and in some cases even painful, to read comments like yours. Referring me, for instance, to racism in other countries, where it's supposedly worse than racism in the U.S., is a derailing canard -- and probably an unwittingly racist one at that -- that deflects attention from, and trivializes as well, the issue at hand. And that issue here is, basically, white supremacy, and more specifically, the common, harmful, and deeply embedded white stereotypes and fears of "the ghetto" and its "denizens" (and btw, those common white burdens are something else to which your comment registers painful oblivion), as well as the likelihood that these tours will enhance rather than challenge said common white stereotypes and fears.<br /><br />Prior to submission of another comment in the hopes of publication at swpd, you would do well to first spend some time reading around here, both posts and comment threads. Who knows, it could well alleviate some of your own white burdens. Sincerely, macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-66886366906021760742009-12-09T16:04:19.087-08:002009-12-09T16:04:19.087-08:00I live in a "hip" neighborhood in Kansas...I live in a "hip" neighborhood in Kansas City (nope, not an oxymoron) and we get this sort of tourism from Johnson County (Kansas) folks who come to our neighborhood to gawk at all the "weird" people and businesses catering to us weirdos like the local New Age/Pagan store, the coffeeshops, the "ethnic" restaurants, the tattoo/piercing parlors, etc. The residents, me included, greatly resent these people coming to gawk at us like we're zoo animals and thinking they're being all "edgy" by even stepping foot into our space. They also seem to try to take up as much of it as possible by clogging the sidewalks and sucking up all the seating in restaurants and cafes and maintaining as loud a decibel level as possible.<br /><br />Still, it's not nearly as intense (in the past, we got at most a short bus full of tourists--it's mostly individuals and small groups of JoCo folk--who stick out like hell--coming to claim their safe street cred) as these proposed ghetto tours. And if we, as middle-class people in a predominantly White (with Hispanic and a few Blacks sprinkled in) neighborhood find their presence objectionable, I can only imagine how those tours are gonna go down with the populace.Witchsistahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603586060096649666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-44668691237510647952009-12-09T15:54:32.147-08:002009-12-09T15:54:32.147-08:00Let's hope that after taking the tour, these v...Let's hope that after taking the tour, these visitors will see that "ghetto" is not synonymous with gang bangers, bad taste, and exotic hairstyles. Perhaps they'll get to see the postal workers, teachers' aides, factory workers, health-care providers, and all the other hard-working people who live in the ghetto. That's the best thing I can say about this idea.GailSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33421782325176029812009-12-09T15:16:42.436-08:002009-12-09T15:16:42.436-08:00Nadra,
I had the same thoughts as I moved to L.A....Nadra,<br /><br />I had the same thoughts as I moved to L.A. from Philadelphia when I first visited Watts and Compton. It looks more suburban than urban. Take away the gunshots and some blight, you'd think it was a suburb. These cities were obviously different than my North Philadelphia "hood".honeybrown1976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-25940480710680450942009-12-09T14:01:26.492-08:002009-12-09T14:01:26.492-08:00@Cloudy:
Some sick, twisted part of me wants to c...@Cloudy:<br /><br />Some sick, twisted part of me wants to charge them more so they can be shot at.<br /><br />@false1:<br /><br />Because that's not "authentic" enough!RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79246705069192203142009-12-09T13:46:55.476-08:002009-12-09T13:46:55.476-08:00I'm not sure why anyone would go on a Ghetto T...I'm not sure why anyone would go on a Ghetto Tour™ when they could just pick up a boxed set of <i>The Wire™</i> on DVD or go see <i>Precious: based on the novel Push by Sapphire™</i> at their local suburban theatre?false1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-8939770679424924382009-12-09T13:46:36.095-08:002009-12-09T13:46:36.095-08:00Bigmac,
Most mayors don't give a damn about p...Bigmac,<br /><br />Most mayors don't give a damn about poor Black and Hispanic neighborhoods anyway. And they give the same excuses for not caring as most Whites do. "Those people are just dysfunctional." "Those people don't care about their neighborhoods." "Those people are just inherently more prone to criminal activity." "Those people are too lazy to work and would rather have a bunch of babies and collect welfare."<br /><br />If you believe that poverty is solely the fault of the poor then there is no motivation to relieve it.<br /><br />That said, I still don't see debasing the folks in those areas as a way to get money or attention for their problems.<br /><br />As for intent as the argument, it doesn't really matter. You could have unintentionally shot someone dead. They're just as dead as if you'd taken careful aim at them. We can pretend as if a good bulk of these folks'd actually open their minds a little and think of the people living in these areas in another way besides a White supremacist, capitalist, patriarchal one, but I bet we'd be really disappointed over those results.Witchsistahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603586060096649666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-30698444583580160932009-12-09T13:19:31.430-08:002009-12-09T13:19:31.430-08:00*sigh*
You know who would love this?
Hipsters.
...*sigh*<br /><br />You know who would love this?<br /><br />Hipsters.<br /><br />They love "ironic" racism and pretending to be poor while soaking up white privilege.Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-180883038536159812009-12-09T13:19:22.221-08:002009-12-09T13:19:22.221-08:00I don't think the intent is racism, though who...I don't think the intent is racism, though who can really say. I'm interested to know what part the community members had in this - I presume none. <br /><br />Thought I will say that I once took a summer job teaching inner city autistic children and the program that we worked for took us on a tour of the city (in it's entirety)to kind of discuss the history of the city - how it went from booming to dying and the effect it's had on the community. We saw the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'd like the think that since this was a job where people were sought out to help children and part of our introduction to the community and the history that we weren't merely going on a safari. I took much more from it than I ever thought would be possible. But then again we didn't just go to the "ghetto" we saw the downtown area that is speckled with "for sale" signs in the building and learned that this city used to have an economy - used to have jobs. <br /><br />I wish that I could say that what I got out of our city tour is something that everyone else will get, but honestly that's not the truth. I think that even if money (that will be reinvested in the community) will come at the hands of this, so will a lot of confirmation of stereotypes. A two hour visual tour will never be able to explain the history of how such inequalities were created and perpetuated.Tiburónhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203887877691270812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70870667670190526662009-12-09T11:55:16.949-08:002009-12-09T11:55:16.949-08:00I have very little to say about this, except that ...I have very little to say about this, except that it is heinous.<br /><br />EOS, actually, I think white people who participate in poverty tours will do so differently than others. They'll see the ghetto from a white point of view, and whatever they take away from the experience will likely be reflected in their interactions with Americans of color in a way that it won't be with people who are of color and/or foreign.bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-36980562720050992842009-12-09T11:38:37.466-08:002009-12-09T11:38:37.466-08:00EOS, America remains a de facto white supremacist ...EOS, America remains a de facto white supremacist society. White people are of particular interest as potential tourists here because they embody, and in innumerable situations, <i>impose</i>, the effects of white supremacy on non-white people. It seems to me that -- given the lifelong training that white Americans undergo into whitened modes of thought, feelings, and behavior, and given also their continued occupation in most institutional positions of power and influence in the U.S. -- their participation in this tour is of particular interest. Will many of them go to really learn about and contribute to the revitalization of blighted urban areas? I doubt it, given the lack of work most of them have done toward undoing their white racial training. As I said in the post, I suspect that most of them will probably have their stereotypical feelings, thoughts and so on confirmed, rather than significantly, productively challenged.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-4139628967945176512009-12-09T11:37:25.235-08:002009-12-09T11:37:25.235-08:00Like Honeybrown, I am an L.A. resident and saw on ...Like Honeybrown, I am an L.A. resident and saw on the local news that this is a Latino run group. When, I saw that they were Latino part of me thought that they should be able to make some money off the many tourists who come here and want to see Compton and South L.A. I taught exchange students from Europe last summer and heard how they tend to want to see urban L.A. because of rap music, so in some ways it's akin to the people who want to take a Sopranos tour in N.J./N.Y. I don't know if European tourists and others are searching for dysfunction so much as they are looking to find the landmarks referred to by rappers. Hopefully their stereotypes will be challenged. I know years ago when I first went to Compton I was surprised to see how suburban it looked compared to rough neighborhoods in my native Chicago where there are no lawns, trees or houses, simply concrete and tall projects (at least back then, it's changed now). Compton looked like a great area compared to what I'd seen elsewhere, which led me to think that some of these gangsta rappers weren't as "hard" as they claimed.Nadrahttp://racerelations.about.comnoreply@blogger.com