tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post6857345328258737210..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: wonder if they should call out what looks like racism when non-white people do itmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-39963504739208111192010-08-06T06:13:52.775-07:002010-08-06T06:13:52.775-07:00Old topic but I wanted to add that. Even though I ...Old topic but I wanted to add that. Even though I am a Poc I would never called someone out who was talking about their own group. Why? Because there is a difference between someone saying a stereotype and speaking about cultural norms ( that I am uneducated about.) unless it an overt stereotype I have no way of knowing if the people is saying something offensive about their own people.<br /><br /> I have a white friend who loves to tell people they are stereotyping. He done this to me twice when I was talking about culture. I was not stereotyping he simply does know Shit about African-Americans or our culture. Which made him racist for trying to silence a Poc talking about their own culture. Trying to insert his views into my story...<br />So be careful not to make an Butthead out of yourself trying to be "right", Make sure you actual know what you are talking about before you correct someone or get offended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21935127036240269562010-08-05T20:24:03.699-07:002010-08-05T20:24:03.699-07:00As a white person, if a friend of mine, regardless...As a white person, if a friend of mine, regardless of ancestry, makes any comment that stereotypes members of an ethnic group or attempts to say that all persons of an ethnic group are x negative quality, I respond the same. I go completely silent, stare at them a moment, and ask, "Wait, what did you just say?"<br /><br />If they repeat it, or try to shrug it off, I just reply, "That was insanely offensive. Seriously, who SAYS that?" and walk off. That way, I'm making it clear that it IS offensive and hurtful, but by not actually calling it racist I don't give them the chance to shrug it off as "oh, white person trying to tell me what racism is." Privilege doesn't mean you can't tell when something is cruel.<br /><br />If it's not a friend, I usually just go noticeably stone-faced, finish the interaction as quickly as possible, and ignore all further attempts at small-talk.<br /><br />The one time I don't do this is when people are racist against their own group. I'm still not sure how to address that, but I generally leave it at not agreeing with it or joining in.<br /><br />The important thing is not to lecture about racism (or anything else. Talking down is bad). Yes, it's racism. However, it is more importantly CRUEL, WRONG, and HURTFUL. By pointing out the cruelty in the statement in a way that shames them, you can at least let them know that there are repercussions for their bigotry without them dismissing you. Being white doesn't make you a souless automaton who can't be hurt by witnessing crueltyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-31028884827725749322010-07-15T04:16:36.957-07:002010-07-15T04:16:36.957-07:00Troubled said...
“As a white person who has dedic...Troubled said... <br />“As a white person who has dedicated my career to serving children who are frequently the victims of racism, especially in school, it really bothers me to be advised that I should be excluded somehow from sharing in the indignation and fury that we all should feel when we hear ignorant and mean-spirited comments that perpetuate and make light of racism.” <br /><br />I noticed how you took the time to give yourself a generous pat on the back for being the crusader/savior that you are, but the realities of racism exist ‘beyond the confines of school’ despite your good intentions. You do all of this great work (and get paid for your effort I see) while your privilege remains relatively intact. Your boast of racial piety is just that for you have no idea what a person of color goes through ‘even if you think you do.’ Conversely, your claim to empathy rings hollow when you choose to make yourself the center of this discussion. <br /><br />As a person of color it bothers me that as a white person you have trouble appreciating why white people need to do X, or why some POC should do Y. It wears us out having to explain things to white people who’ve dedicated ‘their whole career’ blah blah blah, to antiracism and yet still don’t get it. If this were a perfect world sir there would be no need for either race to do X or Y. Hence your simplification of a complicated matter is troubling to me.M. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412079628160690200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-7194788454414065312010-07-14T22:19:36.661-07:002010-07-14T22:19:36.661-07:00troubled,
I know it seems weird, considering how w...troubled,<br />I know it seems weird, considering how we (at least here in the US) are raised. But the plain truth is, we're <i>already</i> in a situation where a POC and a nonPOP can each do X, and get/cause different results. Because: context. <i>Lots</i> of Xs have different connotations depending on who's doing them. <br /><br />We've been working with that reality for some time.karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-1557977083705908492010-07-14T20:35:57.505-07:002010-07-14T20:35:57.505-07:00@ troubled (again)
"It seems to me like it w...@ troubled (again)<br /><br />"It seems to me like it would be progress if people of all backgrounds were equally free to challenge bigoted ideas, wherever they come from."<br /><br />if people of all backgrounds were equally free, we wouldn't have any bigoted ideas to challenge. And if we did, it wouldn't matter because as we would all be equally free bigotry would be irrelevant. <br /><br />You demanding to be "equally free" is a slap in the face to those who are rarely seen as equals by WP. <br /><br />for clarity's sake pretend it's a class thing instead.<br /><br />Pretend you were born super duper rich and you see 2 people fighting over 5 bucks. do you think you have a right to jump in and admonish them for being petty and say "hey lets all be brothers, we're all in this together as one."? Not really, because you don't have to deal with the same shit every day that they do. On one hand fighting is wrong, on the other hand your part of the system of privilege that put them in a position to fight in the first place.<br /><br />I don't know, am I wrong? help me out here.jas0nburnsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26633278778420243532010-07-14T20:07:45.065-07:002010-07-14T20:07:45.065-07:00@ troubled
doesn't it make sense that.....If ...@ troubled<br /><br />doesn't it make sense that.....If you are a WP who benefits from racism and white privilege in myriad ways whether you believe it or want to or not, that it would be a bit presumptuous to lecture a POC on his/her racism?jas0nburnsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-37470121392252185892010-07-14T19:28:08.165-07:002010-07-14T19:28:08.165-07:00I am troubled by advice that says if you are white...I am troubled by advice that says if you are white, you should do X, but if you are a person of color, you should do Y.<br /><br />It seems to me like it would be progress if people of all backgrounds were equally free to challenge bigoted ideas, wherever they come from. Everyone should be sensitive to the way their words might be perceived, but the people getting called out on a racist joke should ask themselves why it matters what race the person is who is calling them out. While racism hurt people of color obviously a hundred times more than white people, and some races much more than others, we all have an interest in living in a respectful society.<br /><br />As a white person who has dedicated my career to serving children who are frequently the victims of racism, especially in school, it really bothers me to be advised that I should be excluded somehow from sharing in the indignation and fury that we all should feel when we hear ignorant and mean-spirited comments that perpetuate and make light of racism.troublednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-36163553850595577992010-07-13T11:27:45.731-07:002010-07-13T11:27:45.731-07:00This is reader #1. Sorry for my lateness in reply ...This is reader #1. Sorry for my lateness in reply ( I was out of town) but I just wanted to thank everyone for their considerate replies. It has given me a lot to work with. Thank you.Reader #1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70286620733213131262010-07-11T07:29:32.805-07:002010-07-11T07:29:32.805-07:00The obvious solution after they are done telling t...The obvious solution after they are done telling the joke is to politely say "I don't get it..." and if they explain what's supposed to be funny ask them "why?".<br /><br />It works, people don't ever tell racist or homophobic jokes around me anymore.<br /><br />I don't think people should differentiate between different forms of racism because it all sounds like making an excuse for why 'this type' of racism by this group is unreproachable, yet 'another type' of racism is horribly wrong because it's perpetuated by those in 'power'. It's all racism and it's all wrong!amazeennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64271542679356396442010-07-11T06:56:44.476-07:002010-07-11T06:56:44.476-07:00I've seen the anime mentioned in example 1, an...I've seen the anime mentioned in example 1, and I'm familiar with the character of Simon (a black Russian man who runs a sushi shop in Ikebukuro). Given the fact that this is an animated representation of a district in Tokyo where several non-Japanese people visit and live, I've got to admit that, as a black woman who has studied abroad in Japan and is familiar with its culture, I'm not offended by Simon's portrayal.<br /><br />Here's why: Japan is extremely novice when it comes to accurately representing non-Japanese ethnicities. They're working towards more awareness (which, unfortunately, stereotypical black Japanese-speaking comedians aren't helping in the slightest), but anime-wise, they've come a long way from the days of Dragon Ball Z's Mr. Popo: http://media.photobucket.com/image/mr%20popo/elarnold/mrpopo.jpg?o=3<br /><br />Simon in Durarara is somewhat limited in his Japanese-speaking abilities, but he's usually the most aware of character's situations, keeps the peace, and is the voice of wisdom...it's a lot more positive than a shuckin', jivin', grinnin' coon portrayal, which is a breath of fresh air in an industry that doesn't see a lot of people of color to begin with. That's my take, at least.Charlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02856779821214659867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53268043616746439062010-07-10T14:02:07.948-07:002010-07-10T14:02:07.948-07:00@DOvs and ( kinda) @ Jane
Though Jane raised a go...@DOvs and ( kinda) @ Jane<br /><br />Though Jane raised a good argument for why a POC can be racist( which gave me pause)... I think a better term is " internalized racism." The reason why I say POC cant be racist is to acknowledge that racism is not just situational. WP who are racist have a society that reinforces and approves their racism ANd reinforces their whiteness and privilege. A Poc ( as jane point) might be helping that overall system, however, they are being used to erase their own cultural identity, they are upholding "whiteness" at the cost of their own identity( even if they are attacking a different group it still implies white is better than everything else or they are buying into racism that hurts their own community)... they do not benefit in the some ways that WP do from their racism. Therefore, different words are use to highlight the difference in impact. <br /><br />Also, the posts about how a POC can be most powerful than other a POC seems like a slippery slope to Oppression olympics.<br />Spending time arguing over who has some power just keeps us from fighting to together. <br />Powerful Oppressed is oxymoron for good read...( not to say poc cant be powerful. Power here is used in context of racism)<br /><br />It ignores the subtleties of racism. Ex: some might think Black Americans are powerful in the political world because of a collective voting block and a black pres. But this ignores that "perceived" power is use against POC. Ex: the black vote has been suppressed since we got because it has the powerful to ensure the victory of one party. The powerful black face is use to kill programs because they might abuse them and they got enough. Regardless of whether or not other POc groups and Marginalized Wp might benefit from that program... Here fear of one group who has too power or other reason needs to be feared is used to get other marginalized groups to screw themselves over.<br /><br />So I think how we define things are important as it states who has the real power. <br /><br />But with that said, what matters for the questioners is calling POC racist is still pointless. for that matter calling a WP racist is pointless. Because they are likely to tune you out. Point out their offensive language, get into a discussion of privilege and prejudice but the R word is too heated for a first conversation.Sisouhttp://fallingwings.posterous.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22958924623905889682010-07-09T22:56:36.387-07:002010-07-09T22:56:36.387-07:00I think the issue of whether to address the bigotr...I think the issue of whether to address the bigotry of a POC is the wrong question, so it is not relevant to give it an answer. What is the purpose of fighting racism? To change the power imbalances between WP and POC. To teach WP this imbalance is real and wrong. To take steps to make this happen. Is racism the problem of POC? Of course not. The brutalities that all people inflict on one another in the U.S. are in the context of a violent and oppressive social order created by WP. So I think the question is irrelevant. Calling out a POC for something they said (when you are a WP) treats the symptoms of the disease of racism and not the root cause WE need to take responsibility for.margynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-14048589743017865822010-07-09T16:19:51.399-07:002010-07-09T16:19:51.399-07:00Racism expressed by one minority against another m...Racism expressed by one minority against another minority is still racism. The effect of such bigotry is to keep both minorities focused on blaming each other instead of the majority in power, thus allowing the majority free reign. So, yes, racism against a minority by a minority still has the same effect as racism expressed by a majority. It should be confronted because it harms both minorities.DovSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23183131423371747392010-07-09T11:48:34.391-07:002010-07-09T11:48:34.391-07:00I agree with what M. Gibson wrote.
His post expla...I agree with what M. Gibson wrote.<br /><br />His post explains everything that I don't have the time to say at the moment. Just one more thing...don't make it all about you and how offended you are, and don't try to lecture.<br /><br />I know of people who want clearance to correct poc when they don't even have their cards together. Chose your words wisely because its not only what you say, its how you say it.caribbellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10137650720775191230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18557581934091837572010-07-09T07:44:22.603-07:002010-07-09T07:44:22.603-07:00As a Nigerian-American who spent the past two year...As a Nigerian-American who spent the past two years working in Nigeria I have seen a great deal of discrimination and prejudice from people of colour directed at people of colour. Whenever I see it I call people out. Not by saying that thye are wrong or bad but by telling them that what they are saying is untrue. The one thing that I always point out is that no group is monolithic. Furthermore I always try and relatethe issue to treating EVERYONE with respect and humanity. I also try to focus more on white supremacy since that is what drives a lot of this, the closer people are to the white norm that white supremacist ideology pushes the less likely you will face discirminitation and prejudice.tenacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07448454644285005675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38902877794923199352010-07-09T07:41:05.361-07:002010-07-09T07:41:05.361-07:00If the question is about horizontal racism, racism...If the question is about horizontal racism, racism against other marginalized racial communities, like Latinos or East Asians/Pac. Islanders, or anti-Islam attacks, yeah we ALL should call it out, but I still think it's best if people of color stand to that challenge first. I think if WP take this on without understanding how much space WP take up just by being in the space let alone taking on an activist role, they risk shutting out and shutting down PoC even if that's not their intent.<br /><br />I also just don't feel confident that if WP do call out horizontal racism, it's not gonna be followed by, "Yeah like how [X celebrity of color] treats white people!" That goes down the nasty lane of "reverse racism" and from my experience, that's not far away when white people talk race.<br /><br />I want to say, "WP go forth and tell your truth to all people of all colors," I want to say this! Jane and so many peeps I can't remember make great points about why everyone's voice is needed in fighting racism and all forms of oppression; I just think it's more complex in terms of cultural norms and social power dynamics, at least in the US. I can't honestly say that I could always be in favor of a WP calling out a PoC I guess, even if it's totally obvious that PoC is in the wrong, like if Clarence Thomas ever talks.Colin B.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53199951667693451322010-07-09T04:16:52.040-07:002010-07-09T04:16:52.040-07:00Reader 2: I'm a black woman. I say call them o...Reader 2: I'm a black woman. I say call them out on it. You might not wanna shout out that its racist if you're white because that might raise a few eyebrows. They might say "What do you know about racism?" and dismiss you. Say its inappropriate and it makes you uncomfortable. If it were a POC they can say its racist since they can't argue with them and say they don't know what racism is.A Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-81263897467339861412010-07-08T20:46:30.564-07:002010-07-08T20:46:30.564-07:00First off, I think it is important to acknowledge ...First off, I think it is important to acknowledge that people of different cultures has different views of communicating. As a black woman, I grow up in a family that use humor to strip away the daily stresses of racism. And I believe there is a different between sarcasm and anger towards whites and other groups. For example, when I am around other POC, we are not Political correct. We tease each other and it takes some of the weigh off living in the world( and points he ridiculousness of it) obsessed with our skin color... When I am with people in my own family, I do correct them on offensive statements towards whites and other groups of POC. But I am apart of that family and culture so I know the difference between their sarcasm and actual prejudiced jokes.<br />Therefore, if you are judging someone who is not part of your culture it is important to put what they are saying into context.<br />With that said, if someone is clearly saying something hurtful I suggest <br />1. That if its a POC who is being prejudice towards someone in their own group. Then leave it alone. It is not your place to fix someone's else community. It will only make you seem the" white knight."<br />If they are making fun of white people I say also let it go. As, it will probably come across as a "White person tells me how to talk." Or" a white person tell allowing me my anger and frustration."<br /><br />If they are being prejudice towards another POC of a different culture ( who is not in the room ) then say is is fine to say that you find that offensive. Don't say racist as you might get laughed at or end up being lectured on why POC cant be racist.<br />As far as lecturing people in other countries. I say its best to work on your own country. However, sometimes outsider opinion is valuable but you have to research their culture and do so in a way that isn't " Western tells this place what to do."Sisouhttp://fallingwings.posterous.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-25704257504065314952010-07-08T20:25:59.628-07:002010-07-08T20:25:59.628-07:00Sorry to criticize, but it feels like there is an ...Sorry to criticize, but it feels like there is an idea of "He did, so it's OK for me to do it to." going on. I think that ideology is flawed, though people still hold fast to it.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23628808166036830702010-07-08T20:14:35.589-07:002010-07-08T20:14:35.589-07:00@Abrasink
I wouldn't say that POC cannot be ra...@Abrasink<br />I wouldn't say that POC cannot be racist. If you look at power sharing amid non-white people here in the States, Blacks have greater media representation and a greater share in the corporate world than say, American Indians. I had to put in my two cents in a black forum when a number of members began to offer vitriol against Indians and they often used the same arguments that whites do when putting Indians down.Queequegnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-54536700246550022872010-07-08T20:06:59.678-07:002010-07-08T20:06:59.678-07:00I think the key here is that the title of the post...I think the key here is that the title of the post includes the phrase "what <b>looks like</b> racism". This, to me, means the commonplace (and arguably incorrect) definition of racism, which is "talking shit about another race". (We can use the power+privilege definition if we want, but it doesn't sound like that's what Readers 1 and 2 are talking about.) So to me, the question is not whether PoC can be racist: this has been addressed many times in the literature, from many viewpoints. Beverly Tatum, for example, writes that using the power+privilege definition, in the U.S., POC cannot be racist, but notes that they can be bigoted and prejudiced (as can anyone).<br /><br />So, if the question becomes "Should WP call out what looks like bigotry and prejudice when non-white people do it?", I think the answer is "Yes, but". In particular, WP should consider whether it's a good idea, what the WP will get out of the interaction, what the PoC will get out of the interaction, and what's actually going on in the situation. It'd be easy, I think, for many WP to mistake frustration, anger and outrage at WP as "racism". And, I agree with M. Gibson, that WP have to "clean up their house" first. If, for example, Rush Limbaugh told off a Black person for making a "ching chong" joke, it would be meaningless, no matter how offensive the joke was. And the White person also needs to think about <b>why</b> they want to get involved. Like M. Gibson said, this can come very close to the Arab Trader argument. If the WP is looking to "prove a point" and show that "Hey, look, Black people are racist too!!!", then nothing good is going to come out of this, and the WP needs to stop and re-evaluate their thoughts.<br /><br />The one case where I definitely wouldn't get involved would be a PoC making derogatory and bigoted statements against their "own" ethnic or racial group. It's such a complicated situation, particularly given internal conflicts the person may be feeling; an outsider just woudn't have enough information to say anything constructive.<br /><br />But if a WP were to get involved in a situation like the examples mentioned in the original post, I think it comes down what others in this thread have said: You can say that you didn't like the statement, or didn't find it funny, or question the stereotype involved. But if a WP (in the U.S.) starts ranting about "racism" to a PoC, they need to know that there's a good chance they're going to look like a complete moron and forfeit any opportunity for a positive interaction.Jon Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11558489283481745910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-81448130295751384982010-07-08T18:58:02.112-07:002010-07-08T18:58:02.112-07:00POC cannot be racist. They can be prejudiced, they...<i>POC cannot be racist. They can be prejudiced, they can be biased, they can say terrible things about people of any race -- but saying "Hey, that's racist" to a POC (in a white-dominated country) is wrong no matter WHAT they are saying.</i><br /><br />This is wrong on a lot of levels, as many of the above commenters pointed out. Here's my own two cents on it, because I have to admit I encounter that argument a lot myself:<br /><br />Being a person of color is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, (as completely ironic as that sounds). I've had Black, Asian, and Latino friends alike express their dismay when they found out I was Muslim, for instance ("Oh, but you seem like a nice girl...") or that they think it was "understandable" that the FBI "visited" my house, or that they think that Arabs should stop "colonizing Europe," or that if my father can't speak proper English he should "go back to where he came from." Racist? Xenophobic? Privileged? Utterly. <br /><br />And then they try to tell me that "I'm [insert race], so I can't be racist."<br /><br />The thing is, it doesn't work like that. Oppression doesn't cancel out privilege. So I'd say, if it's a clear cut example of racism (or sexism, or homophobia, or whatever) by all means, call it out. Because it's not really <i>about</i> you -- it's not really about the person who's telling the racist joke. It's not about some kind of racial power dynamic at play between you and the offender. It's about the people that their oh-so-funny comment is <i>actively oppressing.</i> So basically -- I hear joe schmo tell you that my dad is a terrorist? I don't care if you're white and joe's black, or if you're asian and he's from outer space. I want joe schmo to stop talking shit about my dad.<br /><br /><br />(Sorry if that got rambly...this is a subject that hits a liiiittle close to home.)Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-37750810872841945102010-07-08T18:50:37.830-07:002010-07-08T18:50:37.830-07:00If it is a random POC, let it go. If it is someone...If it is a random POC, let it go. If it is someone you consider a friend...make sure you know them well enough to predict their response. If they would get upset about it, maybe let it go. If they just slipped up or something, maybe say something in a non-confrontational tone.sez ayenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76619075427523990502010-07-08T18:38:28.572-07:002010-07-08T18:38:28.572-07:00Are we talking about white people criticizing all ...Are we talking about white people criticizing all forms of racism in every instant? If so, then I say, YES. Call it out. Each and every time.<br /><br />However, one thing white people like to do is excuse their own racism or complicity in the white power structure by illustrating nonwhite racism. And I'm opposed to this plea to excuse racism.<br /><br />I just posted about this on my own blog (not dagSeoul, but Some Very Big Bullshit. The links are available through my profile. Please visit^^) And I linked to this blog, which I'm happy to say is becoming one of my daily reads. Thanks for all the work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04336286974067459325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50920104279663159422010-07-08T18:07:28.822-07:002010-07-08T18:07:28.822-07:00This is reader # 2. Thank you for your thoughtful...This is reader # 2. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I'm going to keep telling WP to shut up, and stay silent towards POC who seem bigoted. I really don't have a clue, and I shouldn't broadcast that fact to the world.Reader2noreply@blogger.com