tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post6601798870529585440..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: apologize instead of compensatemacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-59925092227497294912008-08-13T13:13:00.000-07:002008-08-13T13:13:00.000-07:00I am an 18 year old white male, descendant equally...I am an 18 year old white male, descendant equally from white German immigrants and native Americans. No one within my family ancestry going as far back as I am able to track has, at any point, owned a slave of any ethnicity.<BR/>That said, I am fully able to understand that where I am today (comfortable, in suburbia, floating *just* above the debt line but nonetheless above it) is a direct causal effect of being favored by a government which is rooted in systemic inequality. My own feelings of detachment towards this inequality are irrelevant; I may not be responsible for you having less, but I DO have more as a result, and I can't escape that.<BR/>To this end I donated a little over a thousand dollars of inheritance money from my father's death, between the Hurricane Katrina recovery efforts and the UNCF.<BR/>I don't have (what I would feel would qualify as) the requisite level of understanding of sociology, economics, or political science to comment on government legislation regarding reparations. I sincerely believe, though, if more people of my race could understand their intrinsic entitlement is the result of an imbalanced system, they might (ideally, at least) do as I've done out of the goodness of their hearts. This talk of 'Well *I've* never done anything to black people' is the first barrier to a deep-seated ignorance on our parts. We can blame the media or the government all we like, but there it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-41283096607265099162008-08-04T12:03:00.000-07:002008-08-04T12:03:00.000-07:00I came across this CNN article called "Obama: Slav...I came across this CNN article <BR/><BR/>called "Obama: Slavery reparations <BR/><BR/>not the answer".<BR/><BR/>http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/02/obama-slavery-apology-reparations-not-enough/<BR/><BR/>I hope it helps add to the discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82953068313417569682008-08-03T07:09:00.000-07:002008-08-03T07:09:00.000-07:00Thank you for posting this.I'd never seen or heard...Thank you for posting this.<BR/><BR/>I'd never seen or heard about Damali until someone pointed me to your post. Great job, great blog. Will definitely be following your postings and making comments and contributions in the near future.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to check out my blog also, http://boboleechronicles.wordpress.com. I'm on a break from posting at the moment, but feel free to visit and comment!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64560961739270463202008-08-01T05:49:00.000-07:002008-08-01T05:49:00.000-07:00To mnb, jw, and others concerned about how I handl...To mnb, jw, and others concerned about how I handle comments here:<BR/><BR/>To answer jw's question above ("Why do you never challenge problematic answers on your blog when you believe that 'changing minds and hearts' is possible?"), I usually don't jump into the conversations inspired by my posts because I've already had my say--in the posts. If people ask me direct questions in the comments, I do usually answer those, but I've found that when any sort of debate arises and the blog's "owner" jumps in, the debate either dies, or some of the participants drop out. I also don't see a need for me to challenge "problematic answers," especially those displaying degrees of ignorance and/or racism, because this site now has a lot of smart, informed readers who always seem to jump in and do that instead--in most cases, I would just be repeating what they're saying. Finally, I also find that addressing problematic comments effectively can be very time consuming; I'm already spending too much of my spare time on the front-page posts here, and spending what time I do have on those posts strikes me as more worthwhile.<BR/><BR/>To address mnb's comment on the way discussions tend to go here--I've received several comments of that sort, and quite a few more email messages, complaining about how discussions often go here. These emails, especially, have been from people who basically say that they're interested in the blog, but that the often "toxic" atmosphere of the comments sections sometimes keeps them from reading it.<BR/><BR/>"Aw, too bad!" some others here might say. "Can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen, you're more racist than you'll ever know, including the way you're trying to impose your discussion style on others," and so on. However, those emailers are often white, and often new to the idea of even thinking about "whiteness," and thus empowered over others in ways they don't even realize--yet. They're the kinds of readers, that is, who especially should be reading a blog like this (in my humble opinion); they usually live and work in ways that directly affect non-white people, and so yes, I do think that changing their "hearts and minds" can happen, and that doing so can in turn affect lives that suffer from ongoing white supremacy (including white lives). Keeping the comments section "civil" may well be keeping the discussion going their way, or maybe it's a sort of polite middle-class way, but, "civility" does help to keep such people around, and it does make them feel more welcome here, and even, as one emailer wrote, "safe." <BR/><BR/>Some readers, who have a much higher level of understanding about white supremacy, have written that they don't think this blog does enough to directly define, deconstruct, and call for concerted action against ongoing white supremacy. But if this blog was all about that, at such an advanced level, then I'd be "preaching to the choir"--most of the white readers I just mentioned would take one look and never come back again. <BR/><BR/>I do think that anti-racist work should be painful at times for white people, and it often is for me. But as I'm trying to say here, I'm also leery of chasing away newcomers because they find the comments sections painful. Simply getting white people who haven't thought critically about their whiteness to begin doing so is, I think, a productive, radical, progressive, etc. effort. <BR/><BR/>And yes, insulting or dismissive comments, like the one that I disallowed here by exvanp, do cause aversive feelings to arise in newbies. I also think that, aside from their effects on some readers, such comments do little to advance the discussion. I don't disallow many comments, but those that offer assessments of the person behind (or rather, supposedly behind) other comments are prime candidates. I also find that lengthy individual comments (like this one, actually) can bog down and sometimes kill a comments thread, but I have yet to delete any of those. In that regard, I think we should all keep in mind that the longer a comment is, the less chance there is that others will read it, let alone respond to it. That's especially true if you post two or three such comments in a row.<BR/><BR/>I'm all for "free speech," letting the chips fall where they may, and so on. But I'm more for keeping as many readers coming back as I can, especially, as I said, certain new ones. I'm something of a newbie too, in terms of understanding whiteness, and in terms of writing a blog and moderating its comments. These are my thoughts on the latter, so far, and I welcome other thoughts, especially since my methods are still evolving.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58180896073737036562008-08-01T03:48:00.000-07:002008-08-01T03:48:00.000-07:00MNBI didn't call your comment rubbish but I wrote:...MNB<BR/>I didn't call your comment rubbish but I wrote: 'Before you comment on reparations it would be a sign of politeness to inform yourself first before you come up with your weird thoughts.'<BR/><BR/>Google is your friend to find all informations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82443018465634210702008-08-01T00:37:00.000-07:002008-08-01T00:37:00.000-07:00The way some of you here discuss on this post is r...The way some of you here discuss on this post is really disgusting to me (yeah, i'm going to have to be a little harsh because it seems that's how things work when you start talking about issues of race). Nquest and jw, don't tell people their opinions are rubbish just because you do not agree, respond and say why you disagree. You disrespecting my point as if none of what I said makes a little sense make you questionable. Macon D, I don't know what exvanp posted but I believe you can tell him to cool off while posting his comment (unless it's insulting and offensive). We can judge for ourselves if he's a little out of control. For all of you who remotely think reparations are going to make Black Americans independent, please tell me what kind of reparations we are talking about here. None of you have really explained what YOU mean or better, what IT means (seems you are know-it-all) to have reparations for Blacks and Natives. Please tell me, I hunger to know since I am so ignorant. Nquest (yes, you again), who the heck are all those people you even mentioned in your (failed) attempt to insulted me?? WHO? jw, like exvanp said, just because someone says something in a book doesn't make them right. I don't have to write the bibliography after every comment I post (or anyone for that matter), otherwise, you post yours too.<BR/>All I see here is people trying to crush and insult other people's intelligences here, quoting a couple of sentences from LONG paragraphs that people post to give their opinions about some issues. I don't see your opinions and ideas and solutions to address the matter of apologies and reparations. All I see is bold and italic quotes and harsh, empty responses. You can disrespect people's opinions, but don't disrespect them, please.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And please, Macon D, this post is very clean and just a reply to many harsher comments above so please don't delete. It took some time and effort because I do respect people on here... at least for now.MNBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15135366771586387277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-56363984768854215112008-07-31T16:40:00.000-07:002008-07-31T16:40:00.000-07:00Do you actually believe that a cheque would lead t...<I>Do you actually believe that a cheque would lead to this?<BR/>Really?</I><BR/><BR/>ask IsraelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38303394067295736972008-07-31T16:27:00.000-07:002008-07-31T16:27:00.000-07:00exvanp wrote: Soooo...South Asians can ask for re...<B>exvanp wrote: <BR/>Soooo...South Asians can ask for reparations form the British, Jews can ask for reparations from the Egyptians, Greeks, from...say Turks, (and vice versa)?<BR/><BR/>At on point in time, our ancestors were probably slaves to another's ancestors.<BR/><BR/>Giving out a token cheque won't do anything.<BR/>The only way to fix the lasting damage that Colonial and...er, shit America is still unfair to minorities...anyway, the only way to revert (to a certain degree anyway) the injustices inflicted on minorities (note, not blacks..ALL minorities) is to create a range of social welfare programs that will help those in the lower rungs of the socia-economic ladder to get better education, health care and jobs.</B><BR/><BR/>Reparations from the <B><I>government</I></B> of the United States of America is due to ONLY two groups, they are the Native Americans (aka American Indians) and the descendants of the black Africans who were brought here to be slaves. That is it! <BR/><BR/>The U.S. government owes no other "minority" group, living in this country, reparations except for and for the following circumstances: <BR/><BR/>The Japanese who were interned illegally during WW2 are due compensation for what was really mass theft of their land (many were farmers) and property/businesses by white Americans. Although, the US government did pay them reparations, it was just a drop in the bucket compared to the true value of what was stolen from them.<BR/><BR/>Also, presently, the Muslims and/or Arabians, who are being held in the prison on Guantanamo will need to be paid reparations for what will be revealed to be, is revealed to be, illegal incarceration and torture.<BR/><BR/>All those other groups that you mentioned at the beginning of your comment need to take up their request for reparations with those specific governments.redcatbikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08645491470348404443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79423755515036859672008-07-31T16:16:00.000-07:002008-07-31T16:16:00.000-07:00Black independence and self-determinationDo you ac...<I>Black independence and self-determination</I><BR/><BR/>Do you actually believe that a cheque would lead to this?<BR/><BR/>Really?exvanphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06897186347415397014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79824853385220705872008-07-31T15:41:00.000-07:002008-07-31T15:41:00.000-07:00Reparations to African Americans could and probabl...Reparations to African Americans could and probably would lead to Black independence and self-determination and that's probably the fear white people have. No more controlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52351207253973110262008-07-31T15:31:00.000-07:002008-07-31T15:31:00.000-07:00no1kstate,If you read one of my earlier posts, I a...no1kstate,<BR/><BR/>If you read one of my earlier posts, I agree that there is institutionalized racism in the US (and many other countries).<BR/><BR/>All I said is that I think it'd be a far better use of our time if we tried to actually fix (though i doubt that's actually possible, it's so deeply ingrained, but still we must try), rather than making token reparations that will do little good other than serve as an excuse for politicians to proclaim a "new age of equality" or some other such idiocy.exvanphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06897186347415397014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-30018527492530714762008-07-31T15:20:00.000-07:002008-07-31T15:20:00.000-07:00exvanp Let's not get into the reparations western ...exvanp <BR/><BR/>Let's not get into the reparations western Europe owes all over the world.<BR/><BR/>Jews and Egypt? That's just craziness. That was well over 2thousand years ago.<BR/><BR/>Slavery just ended less than 2 centuries ago. Peonage and other legalized forms of slavery lasted into the 40s. Racial terrorism lasted into the 60s and 70s, including but not limited to removing entire city populations like Shiites and Sunnis.<BR/><BR/>Chances are, you have gained tangibly for the exploitation of African Americans. Think about the GI Scholarships and FHA loans that few blacks received. Think about redlining that continues today. Think about the large and growing disparity in wealth accumulation. <BR/><BR/>http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/28/race_poll/<BR/><BR/>I'll have to finish reading the article myself. But, poor whites are more likely to own their homes than better off blacks due to inheritance.<BR/><BR/>As for other minorities? Well, I think something can be said for giving the Southwest back to Mexico.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-28214702555257199032008-07-31T15:01:00.000-07:002008-07-31T15:01:00.000-07:00[Okay, time out exvanp, I'm not going to publish t...<I>[Okay, time out exvanp, I'm not going to publish that last comment. Go sit in the corner and cool off for awhile, and if you then have anything more substantive to say, you'll be welcome to return.]</I>macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-72308855321789471142008-07-31T14:55:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:55:00.000-07:00Reparations on the form of money is only the begin...Reparations on the form of money is only the beginning.<BR/><BR/>Then on to actual equality and not just the equal opportunity to act "white." Truth in history and more diverse literature in schools.<BR/><BR/>I actually have a working list. But suffice it to say reparations in the form of financial payment is only the beginning.Blaque Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627683764935084863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46319990616766483142008-07-31T14:47:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:47:00.000-07:00are you the same way emotional when your governmen...are you the same way emotional when your government goes on war with your tax money? <BR/>And FYI, Jim Crow ended 1964. Not so distant in the past.<BR/>And when you think you deserve reparations, I won't hinder you to start your movement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21104522855149482172008-07-31T14:24:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:24:00.000-07:00Heh. What you've stolen. Are by any chance in grad...Heh. What you've stolen. Are by any chance in grade 8? Slaver, though a very evil and exploitive economic system, is just that - an economic system. To follow your logic, Indians should ask the British gov't for reparations for economic slaver (for colonization of the Indian sub-continent was just that). <BR/><BR/>So...you still didn't answer...what's the purpose?<BR/>Just for the sake of it? If the US gave every descendant of African slaves, say, 1 dollar, would that be enough. Symbolic, innit?<BR/><BR/>The naiveté of some people like you is simply astounding. <BR/><BR/>It is my business. I didn't profit from slavery (not directly, anyway), so why should I have taxes that could be put towards something useful (healthcare, education) be spent on some idiotic notion of payback?<BR/><BR/>And as a Russian of partial Tatar origin, can I ask the Mongolian gov't to give me money since they probably enslaved my ancestors?exvanphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06897186347415397014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33494044896521771202008-07-31T14:16:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:16:00.000-07:00you give back what you have stolen, just simple.Wh...you give back what you have stolen, just simple.<BR/>What recipiens of reparations do with that is not your business.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64963920155398098382008-07-31T14:05:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:05:00.000-07:00My point? My point is that if the US gov't were to...My point? My point is that if the US gov't were to make reparations to descendants of slaves it would then eman that everyone else would be (in principle) be entitled to ask for the same from other governments.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, (a point you did not care to address) what would these reparations actually fix? Would they enable people to have better lives? <BR/><BR/><I>But could you please tell me the title of the book you read?</I><BR/><BR/>Eh? So...do you just regurgitate what you read in books, without making your own thoughts? <BR/><BR/>Please address my point on social welfare, don't avoid it.exvanphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06897186347415397014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63715632169298399152008-07-31T11:13:00.000-07:002008-07-31T11:13:00.000-07:00Macon, a question to you: Why do you never challen...Macon, a question to you: Why do you never challenge problematic answers on your blog when you believe that "changing minds and hearts" is possible?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23418736313324349632008-07-31T11:08:00.000-07:002008-07-31T11:08:00.000-07:00At on point in time, our ancestors were probably s...<I>At on point in time, our ancestors were probably slaves to another's ancestors</I><BR/><BR/>and your point is?<BR/>But could you please tell me the title of the book you read? Must be something like: "How to comment on certain issues without thinking on my own"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6030051850371371002008-07-31T10:26:00.000-07:002008-07-31T10:26:00.000-07:00jw,Soooo...South Asians can ask for reparations fo...jw,<BR/><BR/>Soooo...South Asians can ask for reparations form the British, Jews can ask for reparations from the Egyptians, Greeks, from...say Turks, (and vice versa)?<BR/><BR/>At on point in time, our ancestors were probably slaves to another's ancestors.<BR/><BR/>Giving out a token cheque won't do anything.<BR/>The only way to fix the lasting damage that Colonial and...er, shit America is still unfair to minorities...anyway, the only way to revert (to a certain degree anyway) the injustices inflicted on minorities (note, not blacks..ALL minorities) is to create a range of social welfare programs that will help those in the lower rungs of the socia-economic ladder to get better education, health care and jobs. <BR/><BR/>But this won't happen. Obama is centre-left, so he won't bother with the proles, McCain (despite his record of bi-partisan work) won't do anything either.exvanphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06897186347415397014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-60247046470433787082008-07-31T09:19:00.000-07:002008-07-31T09:19:00.000-07:00MNB, the first thing I would like to know from you...MNB, the first thing I would like to know from you is: When in the American history was a white collective feeling responsible for their own system, which systematically has denied human rights to People of Color? <BR/><BR/>When in American history didn't whites blame others? <BR/><BR/>Already now the possible election of Obama is for many whites some sort of absolution, an easy way for many to avoid again responsibility. <BR/>When you believe an apology is good because it makes people "less angry" - what are you talking about???<BR/><BR/>Tell me how reparations made Israel dependend from Germany. Tell me where Germany has the power to tell Israel anything because Germany paid reparations and we can go stright to Germany: Tell me the situation of Jewish people in Germany. <BR/>Reparations is just this: Reparations. It is in no way anything to 'fix' something. <BR/>I personally am not interested in white people's feelings when it comes to reparations and their weird way to show their antipathy for African Americans by rejecting reparations. <BR/>Before you comment on reparations it would be a sign of politeness to inform yourself first before you come up with your weird thoughts.<BR/>White America has no problem to live [as a collective] with the wealth they were able to accumulate because of slavery, Jim Crow and continued discrimination. They have no problem to live and continue the legacy of slavery.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32486201038593629932008-07-30T23:53:00.000-07:002008-07-30T23:53:00.000-07:00society (ruled and governed by predominantly white...<B>society (ruled and governed by predominantly whites)</B><BR/><BR/>Oh, let's hear this. You've been rather specific in your pontification about what Reparations 'money' should go to or what material form it should come in. Go ahead and be just as specific about what you think "people asking for reparations" might want to think about in terms of dealing with the "society ruled/governed by whites" factor.<BR/><BR/>What "system" changing, White power dissolving measure have you come up with as a matter of reparations to African-Americans?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Oh, wait... Even after all your "I thought the idea of reparations came from the fact that a lot of African Americans today suffer from a system that was initially created in the advantage of the dominant ethnic population, Caucasian Americans" talk you still presumed that the system would remain unchanged save for "access to better schools", etc.<BR/><BR/>In fact, your position was that "the dominance of white culture" would remain in place but would be enhanced by a monetary reparations regime.<BR/><BR/>So, really.<BR/><BR/><B>considering we live in a system that has institutionalized racism</B><BR/><BR/>You took the system as a given and said nothing about unseating White rule. You can't effectively address fundamental inequality until you address the inequity of power.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50190245929598757402008-07-30T22:54:00.000-07:002008-07-30T22:54:00.000-07:00Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't be condescendin...<B>Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't be condescending or insulting please.</B><BR/><BR/>Your "thoughts" are insults because your thoughts are based on bs.<BR/><BR/>What "system" was fixed as a result of reparations to Japanese-Americans?<BR/><BR/>Your "thought" doesn't make sense because I already addressed it. The "system" was supposed to be fixed and should be fixed as a matter of the USA upholding the principles of democracy, etc. enshrined in the Constitution. Fixing that isn't "reparations."<BR/><BR/>That doesn't repair something done to African-Americans. And whatever comes from the US fixing its democracy will benefit everyone just like the civil rights acts/movement benefited more than just African-Americans.<BR/><BR/>Reparations, however, are specific. It's about specific, if even exclusive, wrongs -- injuries, damages or losses suffered. Reparations then is about compensating for those specific wrongs...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18983884659762832692008-07-30T22:35:00.000-07:002008-07-30T22:35:00.000-07:00what I was trying to say if little money (reparati...<B>what I was trying to say if little money (reparation check let's say)</B><BR/><BR/>No. We won't say "reparations checks." I don't respect your opinion because it's not informed and you prefer to talk in hypotheticals based on both unacceptable biases and ignorance.<BR/><BR/><B>I thought people when asking for reparations were talking about giving money to individuals and in that regard</B><BR/><BR/>You thought that based on what part of what you heard from Charles Ogletree and the Reparations Coordinating Committee? You thought that based on what part of what you heard from Deadria Farmer-Paellmann? You thought that based on what part of what you heard from N'COBRA? You thought that based on what part of what you heard from Randall Robinson? You thought that based on what part of what you heard from Robert Westley? <BR/><BR/><BR/><B>I believe I did say that if there is to be any reparations, it should be big money invested into opening doors not only for blacks but for all minorities</B><BR/><BR/>That's not reparations. Japanese-Americans were compensated for the internment fiasco (a time when Blacks were lynched, "<A HREF="" REL="nofollow">torn from the land</A>", uprooted via <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/156584887X" REL="nofollow">sundown towns</A> and none of that was turned into something for "all minorities." All the more reason for me not to respect your opinion when you want to bastardize the concept and constantly turn it into something it is not and approach it from an angle of ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com