tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post5071115495281569971..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: accuse those who point out white privilege of being anti-americanmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75298051279197971762010-03-16T07:36:34.840-07:002010-03-16T07:36:34.840-07:00Speaking as someone who is actually in one of thes...Speaking as someone who is actually in one of these classes, I find my self in the odd position of being in agreement with O'reilly on some of these topics. It's not a comfortable place, and I'd like to move out of it.<br /><br /><br />Unfortunately, I have to be honest and say "I believe in what he says about 'Ultra Liberal Indoctrination'. I'm going to claim all, or even most, classes are like this. But the two I've had that really do focus on Race in an American Context, really are all about why America sucks. I wouldn't have a problem with this, if said classes weren't a literature class on graphic novels and an introduction to American Studies class.<br /><br />Talking about race has it's place, but endlessly harping about how all whites are racist, or at least the vast majority are, and how we all believe in racist stereotypes because of how flawed our culture is, is no less racist than saying all black people love watermelon. You can't talk about race while painting an entire race with the same brush. It's offensive, it's wrong, and it comes across as attempted indoctrination. Especially, since, rather than guilt, we get most of these lectures from immigrant Asians who are mortally when students, even those of asian decent, as why it's racist when America does this, but fine when China or Japan have historical done the same activities. (Hint: Because It's America/Britain/Rome's fault that China/Japan did those activities). Apparently Hegemony is a product of the west only, and until we exported it, no one other population ever exercised it or imperialism/colonialism on it's neighbors.woe is menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-1805365565675271062010-02-22T07:20:52.689-08:002010-02-22T07:20:52.689-08:00Craig,
You really should read more carefully. Did...Craig,<br /><br />You really should read more carefully. Did you just read the name of the blog, see Billo's name in the post, and then dash off your comment?<br /><br />First of all, no one on this blog claims that any beliefs, attitudes, feelings, or actions are simply "white" ones that all white people hold. Look at this blog's subtitle -- there ARE "common" white beliefs, attitudes, feelings, and actions, and this blog is mainly about identifying and understanding them.<br /><br />So, you should take another look at the bulleted list in this post, and then the comments here -- if you do so, you'll see, and maybe come to better understand, a LOT of common white feelings and beliefs.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32406142988027699982010-02-22T07:10:35.229-08:002010-02-22T07:10:35.229-08:00We all know that O'Reilly is a complete dumb f...We all know that O'Reilly is a complete dumb fuck but you can't say that what he says represents white beliefs. This is coming from the same guy who agreed with Pat Robertson that the earthquake in Haiti was because of the slave revolt and making a deal with the devil to gain freedom from the white French (who interestingly, O'Reilly also hates). So just because this lunatic is white does not mean that he represents white beliefs. That's bullshit.Craig Hauserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10434831963569072005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-74528026157727777112010-02-06T14:11:35.538-08:002010-02-06T14:11:35.538-08:00PS--Hey everyone, fwiw, my hit counter at the bott...PS--Hey everyone, fwiw, my hit counter at the bottom of the page just flipped over a million today. <br /><br />Yay.<br /><br />Thanks for all the page-views!macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-29167758071904188392010-02-06T14:04:02.888-08:002010-02-06T14:04:02.888-08:00Thanks karinova, that helps to clarify it.
And, ...Thanks karinova, that helps to clarify it. <br /><br />And, in addition to their own guilt, they're also talking about mine, and other white people who care about oppression. Even though they do feel white guilt at some level, they're accusing <i>me</i> of feeling it, and telling me that I shouldn't be feeling that way, "cuz there's nothing to feel guilty about, it's all in the past, playing field's level now," and on and on.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-20737666896633963522010-02-06T13:10:40.865-08:002010-02-06T13:10:40.865-08:00@macon,
I think your last paragraph gets at what I...@macon,<br />I think your last paragraph gets at what I find so weirdly humorous about the "white guilt" response. These people are telling me something about themselves that they don't mean to be telling me. (Eurasian Sensation got at it too: an attack on racism is not an attack on America <i>unless your idea of America is primarily defined by racism.</i>) They're going, "all you want is for me to feel guilty!" like that's some devastating accusation. Clearly, they <i>do</i> feel guilty. But I have never EVER heard an anti-racist of any kind calling for, or trying to induce, guilt on the part of oppressors. Guilt is generally not helpful. <i>Their guilt is coming from within.</i> And I only know about it because they're CONSTANTLY denying it. They're just... such bad liars!karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-59734884183354178822010-02-06T12:55:23.095-08:002010-02-06T12:55:23.095-08:00@jas0nburns,
I shouldn't be answering you as i...@jas0nburns,<br />I shouldn't be answering you as it's waaay OT (really, Google's your buddy!), but the subject is kind of a sore one for me. So: <br />1) Who wrote the first rock n' roll song? It's really, really hard to say. But while there's <a href="http://wallacethinksagain.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-is-first-rock-and-roll-song.html" rel="nofollow">obvious and straightforward case to be made</a> as to what the “<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbfnh1oVTk0" rel="nofollow">first rock n’ roll record</a>” was, surprise! there's no <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_rock_and_roll_record" rel="nofollow">“official” consensus</a>. ...Eeexcept that 9 out of 10 people will tell you that it was “Rock Around the Clock” by Bill Haley. He straight up called it rock n’ roll. And the fact that it was the first to <a href="http://www.usefultrivia.com/music_trivia/music_trivia_001a.html" rel="nofollow">hit #1</a> seals the deal. Case closed! ...Eeexcept that “Rocket 88” hit #1 on the national <i>R&B</i> chart in 1951. (Which is separate, and <i>not</i> equal to, the “regular” singles chart. To this day.) [Fun fact: A few months after "Rocket 88" came out, a cover version was recorded by... none other than Bill Haley. It was a local hit, “and started Haley along the musical road which led to his own impact on popular music with (wait for it... wait for it...) ‘Rock Around the Clock’.” How <i>'bout</i> that.] <br /><br />2) Click that Eminem link and be appalled. He has ELEVEN Grammys. Dr. Dre has FOUR— and 2 were for producing Eminem. [Subversive sidebar: Dre won a Grammy in 2001 (the same year "The Marshall Mathers LP" swept the awards) for “Forgot About Dre,” which featured Eminem. There he his, having to sing his own damn praises, and then— like a master!— he pulls out <i>Eminem</i> talking about <i>“motherfuckers act like they forgot about Dre”</i> <b>and wins a Grammy for it.</b> You <i>have</i> to love that.]karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-62559252141770062042010-02-06T12:07:56.553-08:002010-02-06T12:07:56.553-08:00[Manju, to compare what happens in college classro...[Manju, to compare what happens in college classrooms to the slave trade and Nazi death camps is trivializing, insulting, and ultimately racist. Take your wide-eyed fear-mongering elsewhere. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-68347935468452160082010-02-06T08:32:02.023-08:002010-02-06T08:32:02.023-08:00@karinova
the point on gangs is well taken. as is...@karinova<br /><br />the point on gangs is well taken. as is the youtube and yahoo answers stuff. although people who post on youtube and yahoo answers are the lowest common denominator. <br /><br />jibbs didn't take credit for knowing the origins of the song, if you don't take credit for your work you don't get credit. if he had taken credit he would likely be way more famous and as fame is the goal of most artists i would argue he probably didn't know or he would have said so. do you have any other examples of unrecognized pop culture subversive geniuses with a more extensive body of work to make a comparison?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-90710892478892173732010-02-06T05:20:46.181-08:002010-02-06T05:20:46.181-08:00>> "I don't know why, but I find th...>> <i>"I don't know why, but I find that so funny!"</i> <br /><br />Because they've taken diversity training, the one thing that is very specifically NOT supposed to be about white heterosexual men...and made it all about white heterosexual men.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52082147473909093782010-02-05T21:22:21.852-08:002010-02-05T21:22:21.852-08:00I don't know why, but I find that so funny!
I...<i>I don't know why, but I find that so funny!</i><br /><br />I do too, and I also don't know why I find that funny. I've actually been wondering about it lately, this "white guilt" meme, which gets thrown around so much by the same folks who accuse those who consider racism an ongoing problem of "blaming whitey." Just today, I read a comment somewhere else that called spwd "just another white-guilt blog." What do people really mean when they say that?<br /><br />I'm still trying to put my finger on it. I think it is, of course, a way of dismissing any serious discussion of racism . . . but, it does so in such a weird way. It's like they're claiming that "the only reason you're trying to bring up racism is to make me feel guilty!" And on top of that, "There's not even any good reason for me to feel guilty -- I never owned slaves!" Both of which fail, of course, to address at all what those who claim that racism is still a serious problem are even talking about.<br /><br />And that's only part of it, I think. It's also a way of saying, sometimes at least, "There wouldn't even be racial problems if YOU wouldn't keep bringing them up, trying to make me feel guilty, just because I'm white." ("Amen," Kid Rock would say.)<br /><br />And still another part of it is, I think people who use the phrase "white guilt" actually do feel kind of guilty about being white. Somehow, some way, in a way they can't put a finger on, and in a way they'd rather just try to forget, if only those damn liberals would let them.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16849002124247139792010-02-05T21:06:25.149-08:002010-02-05T21:06:25.149-08:00Ha! Only now am I noticing that "White Guilt ...Ha! Only now am I noticing that "White Guilt 101" is actually the <i>title</i> of the segment. That is, <i>they</i> [the show] called it that.<br /><br />Oh, I am tickled! I don't know why, but I find that so funny!karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-55224645907346065822010-02-05T20:17:34.386-08:002010-02-05T20:17:34.386-08:00Bill admitted white privilege? That really surpris...Bill admitted white privilege? That really surprised me. He's still a moron and a bigot, but he surpassed my expectations just a little bit.Mollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75157983372050929822010-02-05T19:52:42.577-08:002010-02-05T19:52:42.577-08:00@ RedGuards: "I think you can be an excellent...@ RedGuards: "I think you can be an excellent science teacher without knowing anything about "white privilege" or "heteronormativity."<br /><br />This is a very misguided way to look at science and at science education in general. Take it from me, a Latina scientist who had to fight her way through throngs of white males to earn a degree, if you think that white privilege and heteronormativity are not alive and thriving in science classrooms and putting talented non-white students at a disadvantage, you are seriously deluding yourself.<br /><br />The NIH disagrees with you, by the way. They fund a program designed to increase minority participation in research science. They paid for my education, by the way, hundreds of thousands of dollars by the time the dust settled. <br /><br />And yet, the NIH itself is often referred to as "The Plantation" because all the top P.I.s are white males and all the lab scientists are brown folks like me.<br /><br />So yeah, science teachers need to be aware of how white privilege shapes science and scientists from day one.Rosanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71419227578924184242010-02-05T19:40:08.243-08:002010-02-05T19:40:08.243-08:00@RedGuards,
Oh, and as for "instruction that ...@RedGuards,<br />Oh, and as for <i>"instruction that may not have much to do with being succesful teachers,"</i> I'd like you to go to <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/forget-that-black-women-are-more-than.html" rel="nofollow">this comment thread</a>, and do a Ctrl-F for the word "school." Please make sure to click RVCBard's "shit like this" linke.karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-3326537469658629632010-02-05T19:35:53.925-08:002010-02-05T19:35:53.925-08:00@ RedGuards
I'm not at all satisfied by your r...@ RedGuards<br />I'm not at all satisfied by your reply. I'm not sure it addresses what I was asking. Again: taking a course and understanding the material does not require or compel you to uncritically "believe" the theory. (I took Bible classes twice a week for 8 years, and I don't believe <i>any</i> of it! But bet your ass, <i>I know my Bible.)</i> For example, the fact that women were and are systematically discriminated against is not "merely" some political idea; it's, well, a fact. Would you call a course on suffrage or the ERA "politically motivated indoctrination"? <br /><br />I look around me, and I see certain phenomena— redlining, profiling, double standards, microaggressions, etc. The theory of white privilege explains the phenomena very, very well. Furthermore, <i>there is no other theory.</i> So the choices, as I see them, are: address the theory of white privilege or (continue to) pretend the unexplained phenomena are not happening. This is just like hard science. You are totally free to believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but if you want to pass physics, you need to comprehend the Copernican system. (And if you stick with Ptolemy, it's up to you to try to figure out why your calculations don't come out right... or, ignore that they're not coming out right.)<br /><br />...<br />Y'know what I think? I think you're calling it "political," but you really mean "potentially uncomfortable/contentious." I think you, like whoever uploaded this video, see a direct and immediate connection to "white guilt." Does the risk of triggering white guilt obviate the need to teach about, say, the Atlantic slave trade, or Jim Crow? It does not. So what's the difference?karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23573051803740257992010-02-05T19:31:40.430-08:002010-02-05T19:31:40.430-08:00@RedGuards
It sure would be nice if you stopped r...@RedGuards<br /><br />It sure would be nice if you stopped referring to anti-racism - you know, the kind of work that needs to be done if my children are ever going to be accepted as fully human - as a fucking political agenda or "pet project." Your unabashed displays of privilege are rather gross, actually.Augustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-28655864494398007232010-02-05T18:42:12.316-08:002010-02-05T18:42:12.316-08:00@macon
Do you think those who are pushing for tea...@macon<br /><br /><i>Do you think those who are pushing for teachers of such subjects as History, English, or Sociology to address such things in their classes as white privilege and heteronormativity are inappropriately pushing a "political agenda"?</i><br /><br />I think an anti-racist point of view could be taught alongside other povs. I remember in my 11th grade-level social studies class we had an assignment to look at a historical event from many different povs, I think there was a Marxist, a conservative and some other povs - it was a great assignment. So no, I don't think exposing kids to anti-racist theory is bad. I also don't think it needs to be mandatory. Like I said before, I'd rather kids learn <i>how</i> to think rather than <i>what</i> to think.<br /><br />As far as those who are lobbying to get anti-racist theory or whatever taught in public schools - do I think it's inappropriate? Not sure. I think it's quite natural for any political group to lobby for their interests in every possible arena. I wish they wouldn't make the public schools into a political battlefield, but it does seem rather inevitable. Also, the idea of a politically-neutral public educational setting that does not reflect the ideology of those in power is probably naive. <br /><br />Perhaps that's why many turn to home schooling and private schools? They're sick of the public schools being used as pet projects for whoever the in-group is?RedGuardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46902129288300457502010-02-05T18:32:51.340-08:002010-02-05T18:32:51.340-08:00@jas0nburns:
"does it matter that hardly anyo...@jas0nburns:<br /><i>"does it matter that hardly anyone actually thinks any of that stuff is true?"</i><br /><br />Okay, WTF? Where are you getting that?<br /><b>Support that statement.</b><br />Because I most <i>certainly</i> disagree, and I can back up my stance <i>all day</i> [I'm referring to the United States, btw]. <br />1) am I confused about Quentin Tarantino’s reputation? Mmm... no. <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yf6svox" rel="nofollow">No, I don’t think I am</a>. Call me when Jibbs wins a Grammy. (Not likely! Lord knows he can't even hold a candle to... <a href="http://hiphop.popcrunch.com/eminem-best-rapper-alive-vibe-magazine/" rel="nofollow">Eminem</a>?! Wait... <i>what??</i><br /><br />2) you might want to click the links I included. Question: why do you suppose that first list of gangs doesn't include a) a "white" category, or b) the second list? Hmmm.<br /><br />3) watch the two videos <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yzj3wu2" rel="nofollow">in this SWPD post</a>. (Don't read the post until you've watched both.) Compare your reactions. Compare the YouTube comments on the two videos.<br /><br />4) <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ye6mqpb" rel="nofollow">this is what you get</a> when you ask Google why white people commit so much crime. Now replace "white" with "black" and compare. FYI, I am very, very, VERY good at using Google, and I couldn't get one hit relating to the first question. Not ONE!karinovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324280726621881771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-44628735110065268762010-02-05T18:04:16.135-08:002010-02-05T18:04:16.135-08:00@ RedGuards
Teaching isn't just about the sub...@ RedGuards<br /><br />Teaching isn't just about the subject material. <br /><br />Think of things like word problems on tests--if every test has a question that starts something like "Beth and Jim are on a date..." and you never see "Beth and Allie are on a date...", that's heteronormativity.<br /><br />Or dropping a little comment like, "Gentlemen, if your girlfriend wants [etc]," or not knowing that a certain phrase is derogatory slang for homosexual and using it from time to time...it's little stuff like that.<br /><br />As far as white privilege goes, think of things like calling on white males more often than MOC or women of any race; or, in a science lab, if the teacher assigns partners and lab stations, and the two Black kids get the station with the leaky natural gas line and the Bunsen burner that doesn't quite work.<br /><br />Or there's prejudice in grading, when it comes to partial credit. <i>Obviously</i> the white and Asian kids know what they're talking about, so surely they deserve at least half credit, but that Native American kid, well, she just messed up so quarter credit. <br /><br />Gender-wise, there have been some recent studies suggesting that the whole "boys are better than girls at math and science" meme is a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, if no one tells girls they aren't supposed to be as good at math as the boys...they're just as good. And if teachers are operating with the mindset that boys are naturally better at it, it WILL show through in some way.<br /><br />But it's not like the teacher is (necessarily) thinking any of that <i>consciously</i>--it's the background filter that shades the way we do things. Becoming aware of that filter helps us know how to avoid looking through it. That's why it's so helpful for future (and current!) teachers to take diversity ed classes.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-36205307918408557392010-02-05T17:57:56.131-08:002010-02-05T17:57:56.131-08:00I'm sure that teachers that are ignorant of th...I'm sure that teachers that are ignorant of their priviliges will be just fantastic teachers to those who share those privileges. Of course, my concern lies with those students who are most at risk for being oppressed by their own teachers.Augustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65497209468247114542010-02-05T17:51:50.185-08:002010-02-05T17:51:50.185-08:00Gotta say that I really wish that jas0nburns would...Gotta say that I really wish that jas0nburns would stop dragging these threads down below 101 level. It's mighty tiresome.Augustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-92069029480356760622010-02-05T17:51:19.568-08:002010-02-05T17:51:19.568-08:00RedGuards wrote,
The indoctrination that I object...RedGuards wrote,<br /><br /><i>The indoctrination that I object to is the idea that people training to become teachers are required to be exposed to politically motivated instruction that may not have much to do with being succesful teachers, but which furthers some political agenda or another. I would have a problem no matter what agenda it is. In other words, I think you can be an excellent science teacher without knowing anything about "white privilege" or "heteronormativity."</i><br /><br />Do you think those who are pushing for teachers of such subjects as History, English, or Sociology to address such things in their classes as white privilege and heteronormativity are inappropriately pushing a "political agenda"?macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18177245681207256722010-02-05T17:42:18.041-08:002010-02-05T17:42:18.041-08:00@karinova
You can have many different political p...@karinova<br /><br />You can have many different political points of view when it comes to teaching the historical events you're talking about i.e. anti-racist, feminist, queer, socialist, conservative, reactionary, fascist, etc. <br /><br />Unless you're teaching a history of science class, or something like that, there's really only one point of view when it comes to teaching evolutionary theory or calculus. At least I'm not aware of a "socialist" way to teach calculus or a "paleoconservative" way to teach chemistry.<br /><br />That's one of the differences between the hard sciences and the humanities.<br /><br />The indoctrination that I object to is the idea that people training to become teachers are required to be exposed to politically motivated instruction that may not have much to do with being succesful teachers, but which furthers some political agenda or another. I would have a problem no matter what agenda it is. In other words, I think you can be an excellent science teacher without knowing anything about "white privilege" or "heteronormativity." <br /><br />(I also want to add that I've only had time to read a couple of short articles about what is going on up there - I may have it wrong.)RedGuardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46332900981107886882010-02-05T17:10:49.209-08:002010-02-05T17:10:49.209-08:00@ karinova
your right.
a better way to say it wo...@ karinova<br />your right. <br /><br />a better way to say it would be...does it matter that hardly anyone actually thinks any of that stuff is true?<br /><br />or are you saying just the fact that some people think that way is enough to make it real for everyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com