tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post4160967603042222127..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: flip the script to make an anti-racist pointmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger175125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-41818980001059161572010-06-06T13:47:51.715-07:002010-06-06T13:47:51.715-07:00@RA:
This whole fucking blog is ironic.@RA:<br /><br />This whole fucking blog is ironic.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-84271674902608266152010-06-06T11:10:28.223-07:002010-06-06T11:10:28.223-07:00@ olderwoman: I wasn't responding to your comm...@ olderwoman: I wasn't responding to your comment as much as M. Gibson's "for the home team" language. I'm surprised you found my comment susceptible to the construction "it isn't really racist if whites do it in other places," since I outright disclaimed that interpretation ("I'm not saying debate-trolling when done on anti-racist web sites lacks racist implications"). Debate-trolling here can be racist, but debate-trolling Stormfront cannot. I guess, though, that the fact whites debate-troll in other places suggests that their <b>intent</b> is not so simply and explicitly white-supremacist as "let's win one for the home team [i.e., the white man]." (I know impact trumps intent, etc, but I did qualify my comment to indicate that this point only applied "to the extent white motives are at issue"). Instead, I think many whitedebaters' motives are more along the lines of: "LOL, these people are caught up in ideology to the point of illogic, just like the people at Focus on the Family...let's try to trip them up on it." Anyways, you and I do agree on one thing: I, too, recoil at the thought of you being credited with inspiring -- let alone being "held responsible for" -- anything I write.Kylenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-11095675085076949562010-06-06T10:01:44.311-07:002010-06-06T10:01:44.311-07:00kyle: I suppose my comment started this, so I mayb...kyle: I suppose my comment started this, so I maybe should retract, because I REALLY don't want to be taken as responsible for your kind of comment that can be construed as "it isn't really racist if whites do it in other places." I'm hoping that isn't what you meant. I was trying to keep this at a level of criticizing things white people do and broadening the critique to say it is a general behavior pattern I've observed among whites and that I'm not trying to justify it or explain it, just name it and point to it.<br /><br />As long as I'm writing, I'll say too that I appreciate the point RVC, soul, Witchsistah etc keep making: you/we get the "nuclear option" in responses because their mild or politely worded statements get brushed off and ignored or treated as attacks. If the only thing people will pay attention to is snark or anger, then snark or anger is what you'll get. <br /><br />And if I get some snark/anger directed my way for my white cluelessness (which I know is deserved sometimes despite my good intentions) then I'll take it like a real woman. By which I mean do my best to listen and learn from it. Although I'm white, collapsing into tears and seeking to be comforted (see next thread) is not my style.olderwomanhttp://sociologicalconfessions.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64857666294369205752010-06-06T09:50:30.155-07:002010-06-06T09:50:30.155-07:00Isn't it ironic that on a thread which was sup...Isn't it ironic that on a thread which was supposed to be about "flipping the script" on racism, so many white people are trying to paint ourselves as victims? Flipping the script indeed.R.A.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38129699427178666982010-06-06T09:26:06.686-07:002010-06-06T09:26:06.686-07:00I am perfectly in accord with the whole "many...I am perfectly in accord with the whole "many whites just want to 'win the debate'" thing, but I don't know that it's accurate to say we want to win one "for the home team." I troll white supremacist web sites too, along with 4chan (misogynists), Christian and Muslim fundamentalist forums, atheist-evangelist forums, the Parents Television Council, and <a href="http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b26cee16e4d8e0bbb2378d39a16c682&board=10.0" rel="nofollow">a site for people who believe that the earth is flat</a>. I'm not bragging about this and I'm not saying debate-trolling when done on anti-racist web sites lacks racist implications, but if white motives are at issue as X has observed, then my take is that it's <b>[perceived] </b>illogic and <b>[perceived-to-be]</b> unfounded zeal that the whitedebater is attracted to, like a shark that thinks it smells blood in the water. Of course, how and why such qualities are perceived in connection with anti-racist web sites does raise issues about what Macon refers to above as the white-privileged lens.Kylenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-83819989639109576922010-06-06T08:26:32.020-07:002010-06-06T08:26:32.020-07:00@RVCBard...
welcome to the club.
It is truly the ...@RVCBard...<br /><br />welcome to the club.<br />It is truly the only way to deal with it without loosing your soul.<br /><br />From what I've seen both online and offline, most people just want to be able to retain their prejudice without confronting the fact that they are prejudiced.<br />They seek every justification for it, they stamp their feet and claim it is unfair that they are not allowed to spew their bigotry and then have the nerve to say well.. <br />'It don't matter what you think, I'm not a racist'. <br />haa haa haa.<br /><br />I can';t take these jokes seriously. <br />They trip over themselves, cease on a word, twist it and bend it to suit their purpose and scream from the rafters how the world is going mad cos you just won't willingly take their insults.<br /><br />Fuck em.<br />Fuck their silly over privileged, ill-educated, ignorant, inferiority complex having butts.<br /><br />And yep. It is an inferiority complex. These ignorant punks know that a level playing field means they can never win. NEVER<br /><br />RVCBard... come over to the dark side... see if you don't feel a lil less frustrated with these yahoossoulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6423290118683495132010-06-06T07:48:20.697-07:002010-06-06T07:48:20.697-07:00@Soul:
Thanks for the support. Good to know that ...@Soul:<br /><br />Thanks for the support. Good to know that what I see is not a product of my "Black paranoia."<br /><br />As for the adolescent picking on me because they like me, I've been there, and I'm still scarred by it to this day. No matter which way you look at it, it sucks for Black women because at the end of the day we're the ones left with the real damage.<br /><br />This isn't just for the Randys of the world, but for anyone (and I'm breaking protocol for a moment to admit that men of color do this too) who thinks they have the right to come at me like a problem to be dealt with or an animal to be tamed. <br /><br />A lot of people on this blog care more about my "attitude problem" than the shit I have to deal with that makes an "attitude" necessary in the first place. Despite the fact that snark is not all I post here, or even the vast majority of what I say at SWPD, from this moment forth, I'm going to live that Angry Black Woman stereotype. I'm going to give you the attitude you keep seeing fit to chastise me about.<br /><br />You know why? Let me make it completely obvious, in case it wasn't before.<br /><br />The way people interact with Black women on this blog is fucked up. It's been brought up again and again, so ignorance is no longer an excuse. With the exception of a handful of people, nobody gives a shit about Black women except other Black women. Because if you did you would open your goddamned mouth instead of lingering on the sidelines waiting for us to conjure up Sapphire for your amusement. You'd engage with us as full human beings instead of trying to pick a fight.<br /><br />You have proven that you don't deserve anything but the attitude since that's all you choose to respond to. You don't deserve my vulnerability. You don't deserve my intelligence. You don't deserve my generosity. You don't deserve my hope to make things better. You don't deserve anything I find worthy about myself. I'm now going to preserve my sanity and dignity by any means necessary against the onslaught of ignorance and entitlement I have to face every time I interact with the outside world. <br /><br />It's open season on the clueless, with snark and sarcasm being the weapons of choice. Because it's evidently all the fuck you understand.<br /><br />The Mammy days are over. Long live the Evil Black Bitch.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63878765174280287622010-06-06T03:45:56.495-07:002010-06-06T03:45:56.495-07:00@julia/other julia...
its cool.
p.s. I take cash...@julia/other julia...<br /><br />its cool. <br />p.s. I take cash :)soulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63987063702917033642010-06-06T01:43:37.539-07:002010-06-06T01:43:37.539-07:00@RVCBard...
and there you have it.
Rather than a...@RVCBard...<br /><br />and there you have it.<br /><br />Rather than ask you a question, this new troll would rather attack you and then admit that he is doing so because he is being defensive and aggressive towards you and you know what?<br />He thinks thats okay... because you know, all he can see is the snark.<br /><br />Because you are not benevolent enough to keep on being reasonable with people who insult and demean you or ask a stupid question.<br /><br />Its like being in school.. you know the little boy hits you because he likes you and he is not sure you like him back, so he hits you to see if you hit him back or cry.<br /><br />For the record I think most people respond to snark because they can't debate your actual points.<br />They know they are wrong. <br />Their whole premise isn't even to debate the issue, its to some how win an allowance for their ridiculousness.<br /><br />You think Randy wants a debate? nope. He simply wants to find a way to insult people and have a clear conscience. Thats it! He's been running that whole angle for awhile on this blog.soulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-5929718548755168892010-06-04T16:47:05.480-07:002010-06-04T16:47:05.480-07:00M Gibson and others: I see this WP tendency to wan...M Gibson and others: I see this WP tendency to want to win a debate or dominate a conversation as a general white trait that whites also use on each other. A lot. Men more than women, but often women too. There are some people who seem to be genuinely incapable of having an actual back and forth conversation with people. <br /><br />Let me be clear: I am agreeing that this is SWPD when talking to POC that closes the door to any hope of understanding a POC point of view. And agreeing of course that racism in its many manifestations is also in play in all this when it is POC and WP talking. I.e. I am absolutely NOT saying that if white people do it to other whites it's not racist. I'm just saying to white folks who've been called out for doing this on this forum that their similar conversational misbehavior is probably alienating people they talk to in any other forum.olderwomanhttp://sociologicalconfessions.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16494594195870192892010-06-04T16:37:02.458-07:002010-06-04T16:37:02.458-07:00[Witchsistah, you're welcome, of course, to wr...[Witchsistah, you're welcome, of course, to write to me about that. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-73485981219310656702010-06-04T15:11:03.104-07:002010-06-04T15:11:03.104-07:00Jas0nburns said...
“As if these rules shield POC ...Jas0nburns said... <br />“As if these rules shield POC from all kinds of valid critique by WP that they just couldn't really handle on an "even" playing field. here's an idea, maybe WP just happen to be WRONG a good 90% of the time but can't admit it so we say the game is stacked. That's all your doing.”<br /><br />I concur…<br />In forums like this most whites neglect to check their privilege at the door. White’s sense of fairness has been warped through hegemony; gleaned from time-honored truths which allege whites are always right. Their need to control every facet of discourse is governed historically by the advantages and one-ups of white supremacy. So POC aren’t just contending with whites, we jostle against an enduring system of privilege as well. <br /><br />Blithe to dismantling systematic oppression, these people are focused primarily on “winning the debate,” roused by a privilege they neither see- touch, nor taste. Being acutely aware of their adversarial stance makes them ever more determined to win one for the home team, clouding their sense of fair play. In other forums frequented by whites, civility and fairness would be a non-issue; it only becomes an issue when the discourse is in unfamiliar territory and where the natives neither look or act like you. It’s that damned white elephant in the room...cant you see it?” well POC can.M. Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15412079628160690200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-81382370696039568592010-06-04T11:52:14.378-07:002010-06-04T11:52:14.378-07:00@RVC Bard
It's really entertaining how, once a...@RVC Bard<br /><i>It's really entertaining how, once again, my more thoughtful lines of inquiry are ignored in favor of critiquing the snark.</i><br /><br />It seems to happen on any and every thread that you post to. I wonder why...Rochellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09297877486316287530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-67452770895885219582010-06-04T11:52:14.379-07:002010-06-04T11:52:14.379-07:00@soul
the moment I clicked "submit" on m...@soul<br />the moment I clicked "submit" on my latest comment, I realized that the latter part of what I said to you might sound pretty darn patronizing. I hope it doesn't, but I can't tell much when I get to this second-guessing myself place.<br /><br />I apologize for f-ing up. What I wish I had said was "can we elect you leader of the free world or something? because you rock."Julia/the other Juliahttp://nobody-asked-you.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-38085226728690743832010-06-04T11:18:03.325-07:002010-06-04T11:18:03.325-07:00@RVCBard
Would you have given a sincere, direct r...@RVCBard<br /><br />Would you have given a sincere, direct response?<br /><br />Or, you know, would you have tried to talk over my head and then be like "what!? I don't know what you're talkin' about..."Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-5748812946343211442010-06-04T10:51:28.762-07:002010-06-04T10:51:28.762-07:00@Mike:
If you were uncertain, you could've ju...@Mike:<br /><br />If you were uncertain, you could've just asked.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-29330415936503678152010-06-04T10:29:43.568-07:002010-06-04T10:29:43.568-07:00It's true, RVC.
You posted this question:
&qu...It's true, RVC.<br /><br />You posted this question:<br />"Why is it so important for White people to have the (for lack of a better term) authority to criticize or critique POCs when it comes to anti-racism? Why do White people need to have to be able to do that? Don't you guys have your hands full with other White people?"<br /><br />And both Rochelle and Macon reiterated versions of it.<br /><br />Yet answer came there none.<br /><br />Randy & Mr X, I think what you're really asking is "how can i participate in this conversation in a way that looks anti-racist but allows me to keep all of my privilege?" I don't know if you even realize that's what you're asking, but I'm pretty sure that it is. Here's the newsflash: We see right through you, and we're not going to let you get away with it. [Also, Randy, you're not getting an answer to your question because it's the wrong question.]<br /><br />@Michelle<br />"I'm not a deep thinker....as you can see by my post." I don't believe for a second that you really believe this about yourself. Why not just stop hovering?<br /><br />@soul<br />can we elect you leader of the free world or something? Which is another way of saying, I so appreciate your presence here, and I wish I could compensate you for what it costs you.Julia/the other Juliahttp://nobody-asked-you.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65548112800264347742010-06-04T09:55:30.128-07:002010-06-04T09:55:30.128-07:00@RVCBard
If you're talking about Kyle, X, or ...@RVCBard<br /><br />If you're talking about Kyle, X, or Jason, then feel free to ignore this message and keep on keepin' on. Call me a nihilist, but "rational" is usually just a codeword for "reasonable" which is a codeword to ask people to "say things how I say things or let me justifiably call you a pre-industrial savage."<br /><br />But if you're directing your "whitesplaining" message to me, I ask you: Have you considered the possibility that *you're* the one calling someone stupid on the internet (ie. insulting other peoples' intelligence) and being condescending (you know, patronizing)? To be honest, in my experience it's been whites subtly complaining that people of color are dumb when they use metaphors to say things for which they lack the specialized lexicon, a lexicon always based on cultural knowledge and not intelligence.<br /><br />PS: I'm not white!Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6701149965590103292010-06-04T09:44:24.251-07:002010-06-04T09:44:24.251-07:00It's really entertaining how, once again, my m...It's really entertaining how, once again, my more thoughtful lines of inquiry are ignored in favor of critiquing the snark.<br /><br />And they say Black folks can't read.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23641534706913991182010-06-04T08:13:03.521-07:002010-06-04T08:13:03.521-07:00@ Randy ....
Firstly,
Kyle addressed me (and anyon...@ Randy ....<br />Firstly,<br />Kyle addressed me (and anyone else particularly POC)<br /><br />His comment was based off something something Kevin said, here's the context:<br /><br /><i>'I sometimes see the internet as having the potential of being King's "table of brotherhood". Do you want to sit at the table, or just spew biased rants that in my mind feed the beast of racism'</i><br /><br />Which Kevin apologised for the ugliness, lack of consideration, rudeness and exercise in white privilege,<br /><br />He admitted that his words were based off the fact that he had <b>NOT</b> read the earlier posts well enough and thus his whole opposition wass based off his own ignorance and presumptions.<br /><br />He also admitted that his words were cased in his own personal frustrations and nothing to do with what was said on this thread. He admitted the prejudice of his words, the complete and utter disregards which was unforgivable and the fuckedupness of accusing me a woman of colour of being complicit and my response to him... (remember based of his ignorance, and fuckedupness) feeding the beast of racism<br /><br />Then Kyle comes along and asks if anything an opopressed group might do that could conceivably be 'fairly' characterised as exacerbating said oppression.<br /><br />hmmm....<br />I know. <br /><br />You know what, any woman who wears a t-shirt deserves to be raped. If she looks at a man she should be raped.. better yet if she looks at a bunch of men directly in the eye, then she should be gang raped. because you know... Us women, we are an oppressed group and some men think a woman in a t-shirt is a temptress who is 'asking for it'.<br /><br />You know what's hilarious about this Randy, its that you are soo fucking transparent and yet... and yet. People are still engaging you.<br /><br />You take POC benevolence and you fucking piss on it and then you cage it in a acid rain and tell us its good for the earth.<br /><br />You take what is emotional, psychological and real and turn it into a farce from your lack of honesty and your refusal to actuallty critique what a fellow white person has said.<br /><br />To be perfectly honest I find your disconnect quite barbaricsoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06035447940907993185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-53151746003624651252010-06-04T07:12:38.580-07:002010-06-04T07:12:38.580-07:00[Mr. X, I'm not going to publish that because ...[Mr. X, I'm not going to publish that because it's simply untrue; because it's a bucket of White Whine; and because it's very tedious -- so why subject other readers to it? You clearly don't even realize that you were wearing white lenses as you typed that. You should sit back and read for awhile, go back into the archives, get the hang of things here. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-68771769069909888162010-06-04T07:06:32.102-07:002010-06-04T07:06:32.102-07:00Honestly randy, you've received a lot of reall...Honestly randy, you've received a lot of really good information here. I'd consider myself lucky if I were you, and stop talking and explaining now. It's time for you to do some close reading. You started out with a simple question, which even you have acknowledged was answered. And now, you're knees-deep in "<a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/12/ask-non-white-people-how-to-fight.html" rel="nofollow">asking non-white people how to fight racism</a>." <br /><br />Any of the comments here or in the links that were shared with you that remotely make you feel uncomfortable or disrespected, or you immediately have a rebuttal for, are the ones you should pay closest attention to first. From personal experience, they are likely most applicable.Victoriahttp://vintagelux.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-49929462296064456932010-06-04T06:56:54.001-07:002010-06-04T06:56:54.001-07:00@Randy
I feel like your attempting to take the st...@Randy<br /><br />I feel like your attempting to take the steam and validity out of the arguments of POC by acting as if Its not their actual points that are correct but the fact that they made those points as POC's. You believe that if you were actually allowed to criticize them you would of course be spot on in your critique, but the rules of engagement don't allow you to do so. Waaaa<br /><br />As if these rules shield POC from all kinds of valid critique <br />by WP that they just couldn't really handle on an "even" <br />playing field. here's an idea, maybe WP just happen to be WRONG a good 90% of the time but can't admit it so we say the game is stacked. That's all your doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-69548418649863410692010-06-04T06:49:37.501-07:002010-06-04T06:49:37.501-07:00@ M. Gibson:
As I see it, the white mindset has b...@ M. Gibson:<br /><br /><i>As I see it, the white mindset has been: For yrs we’ve shown ourselves the better at articulating concepts in no-holds-barred debates....it just stands to reason we’d be better equipped in “the debate” on race.</i><br /><br />I can't speak for other whites, but I don't believe white people are "better equipped" for this debate at all -- in fact, due to obvious disparities in lived experience, etc., I think the opposite is true. <br /><br /><i>Nevertheless you’re drawn to a discussion where the rules aren’t stacked in your favor, and where you lack an awareness that clearly favors the oppressed. So what do you do?” you cry foul.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure why other white people are drawn to these discussions, but I'm drawn to them because the issues themselves interest me, and because I think the POC perspective on these issues -- notably absent from "mainstream" (white-dominated) media -- is more valuable than the "mainstream" (white-dominated) perspective. I also think there are probably some white people who vaguely sense the rules are stacked against them and see this as a challenge: if I can "win" even on this "unfair" playing field, then I am teh master debater. Personally, to the extent I "cry foul," it's <b>because</b> I either sense the rules are stacked against me or that those rules are applied inconsistently even as between different white people. I think the white debater in me would be less offended if guidelines were plainly set out such as: POC-identified posters can use insulting, condescending and degrading language, but white-identified posters cannot. POC-identified posters may explain their views in careful detail, but white-identified posters should content themselves with conclusory assertions, lest they whitesplain. Seriously. Or maybe the real, de facto rule is the one Randy suggests: white people cannot disagree with POC. If that's the case, it does seem like it would be expedient for Macon to say so. <br /><br />Regardless, if I entered the discussion apprised of such rules, then I wouldn't feel I had any basis on which to cry foul when they were applied. I also think in general that it's a white instinct to cry foul when the rules are not the rules we're accustomed to, particularly when those rules in addition are not transparent or consistent. Of course, you're right -- POC have been forced to operate subject to opaque, inconsistent, unjust rules in numerous settings for centuries, and that's something more white people should appreciate.Mr. Xnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-4174926237436416112010-06-04T06:14:27.429-07:002010-06-04T06:14:27.429-07:00@Randy:
You're making this way harder than it...@Randy:<br /><br />You're making this way harder than it has to be. It's already in the goddamn guidelines (See #10, #11, #13, and #14), but motherfuckers just can't be bothered to read.<br /><br />I thought that was already covered in the commenting guidelines. <br /><br /><a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/12/passively-accept-racist-commentary.html?showComment=1260995284064#c2248227903119851586" rel="nofollow">There is no simple list of Anti-Racism Do's and Don'ts</a> that is going to make this easy or safe for White people. You're just going to have to suck it up and risk being called stupid, racist, arrogant, and a whole host of other things.<br /><br />If you're White person involved with anti-racism (no matter how large or small your efforts), you're going to fuck up. Take your lumps, deal with it, and get back to the main issue at hand (how to undermine White supremacy) instead of cluttering the space with your hand-wringing and whitesplaining. If POCs want to talk about that shit, <i>we will fucking let you know</i>.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.com