tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post4093425291052040211..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: idealize jesus christmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33012203738723000162010-04-08T06:14:41.285-07:002010-04-08T06:14:41.285-07:00Vienna said,
>> "Jesus' mission on...Vienna said, <br />>> <i>"Jesus' mission on earth was to preach love, faith, understanding,and yes, that includes acceptance."</i><br /><br />That's Hallmark Jesus. White Jesus, if you will--Jesus according to 1800+ years of mostly European male biblical interpretation.<br /><br />To the extent of what we can know about what Jesus preached, he preached love of God, love of neighbor--and the radical overturning of unjust socio-economic and religious structures.<br /><br /><i>That</i> is why WP resist portrayals of a Black Jesus so strongly. It's not just about wanting a God who is made in the image of themselves. To say that the historical Jesus was a Middle Eastern dude is one thing; in modern America, to portray Jesus as either white or Black is a <i>deeply</i> theological statement. (I mean, where's the uproar over Asian Jesus?)Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-31356250125411802822010-04-07T13:56:26.492-07:002010-04-07T13:56:26.492-07:00The whole reason there are so many different cultu...<i>The whole reason there are so many different cultural representations of Jesus is that people always want to make divinity more tangible,more relateable-into something thats one of their own.</i><br /><br />"White folks only want to hear the good shit: life eternal, a place in God's Heaven. But as soon as they hear they're getting this good shit from a black Jesus, they freak. And that, my friends, is called hypocrisy. A black man can steal your stereo, but he can't be your Savior." - Rufus, the 13th Apostle<br /><br />"The message is what counts.<br />But folks who build their faith<br />on that message should be colorblind."RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65629807713984879602010-04-07T12:57:20.504-07:002010-04-07T12:57:20.504-07:00I don't know how portraying Jesus as white is ...I don't know how portraying Jesus as white is "idealizing" him. Its simply confusing him for something he's not. Jesus was a Near Eastern Semite and his looks would have corresponded to an Isreali or Palestinian.Portraying him with lily white skin and blue eyes is simply innacurate.<br /> That being said,portraying him as black is innacurate as well.If you have ever seen Near Eastern people, they look no more like Africans than they look like a Norwegians.Olive-toned skin is neither black nor pale.<br /> So when either blacks or whites paint Jesus as one of their own, guess what- from the standpoint of accuracy,they both just look plain foolish.<br /> But I'm just wondering why anyone would have a problem with a white Jesus, or a black Jesus, or an Asian Jesus, for that matter. The whole reason there are so many different cultural representations of Jesus is that people always want to make divinity more tangible,more relateable-into something thats one of their own. And to me, thats perfectly understandable.<br /> What isn't understandable is why anyone would make a big to-do over the color of the skin of Jesus, of all people.Jesus' mission on earth was to preach love, faith, understanding,and yes, that includes acceptance. If people are worried about the skin color of a man who did this, then they need to worry some more, because they have basically missed his whole point.Viennanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43022748835897445132009-12-29T09:46:49.566-08:002009-12-29T09:46:49.566-08:00With all due respect, Honeybrown, I didn't con...With all due respect, Honeybrown, I didn't confuse anything, though I appreciate your response. I provided those examples to make a point that followers of Christianity, in all of its denominations, can't claim the lion's share of "tolerance," in either philosophy or practice, within its ranks more than any other Abrahamic religions noted in this thread. I know perfectly well the difference between distinguishing the actions of we flawed human followers versus the actual philosophies underpinning our faiths. The question is what philosophy are we talking about, because there are many. You wrote:<br /><br />"However, I do notice how less likely people will condemn Judaism and Islam (which are based on many of the same principles of Christianity) and who are far less tolerant than other religions." <br /><br />Later:<br /><br />"I was referring to their philosophies, tenets and attitudes toward others unlike them. Out of these three religions, Christianity is the most tolerant. Some of the followers are flawed and have issues, yes. I'm not debating that. But, anyone with a basic knowledge of Religious Studies knows this. That's all I was saying."<br /><br />Thus, your original comments indicate your view of a greater "tolerance" infused in Christian philosophy over other faiths. When RVC Bard challenged your statements, you referenced your searing personal experience with your Jewish grandparents and father, and your black Christian mother, to back them up. What I'm saying is your single experience to me isn't enough to justify the blanket assumption you've made here. I'm not asking you to become a religious relativist per se, but if you haven't studied Jewish ethics, grappled with the works of Abraham Joshua Heschel, Moredcai Kaplan and countless others, or entertained conversations with more than a few Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, or even Secular Humanist Jews (smile), then how can you possibly infer that Judaism is "far less tolerant than other religions"? Same goes for the philosophies, scholars, and followers of Islam. <br /><br />We may have to agree to disagree on this, but your words impressed on me, at least, that you simply see Christianity as the superior faith. On my end, though I am a Jewish convert, I see a motley crew of people, both "good" and "bad" who, over time, shaped the philosophies and practices of the "Big Three" religions -- for both "good" and "bad." You are certainly entitled to your views if I've represented them correctly, but if I am wrong, which happens as often as I breathe, then please share how you define "tolerant." Thanks.Leahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79836366763809449232009-12-28T13:54:36.091-08:002009-12-28T13:54:36.091-08:00Leah,
It appears you are confusing the followers ...Leah,<br /><br />It appears you are confusing the followers with the religious philosophy, which is often the case, when people argue religion. They take what some of the followers have done in the name of the religion (so often misplaced and misunderstood) as the overall framing of the religion. <br /><br />RVC shouldn't feel silenced. Despite feeling silenced by her, at times, her opinions are actually food for thought, whether or not, I disagree with her. I think tolerance goes both ways. We can agree to disagree; but neither side is always correct. It's a learning experience for all. Maybe my experiences have biased me. That's a journey that I will have to venture through.<br /><br />@Cloudy,<br /><br />Regardless of whether or not, a group is in the majority, intolerance against them shouldn't fester. If that's the case, I'd hate 1/2 of who I am as well as so many others. But, I do have the right to say what I wish to say. Being a Christian shouldn't shadow that. That's prejudicial as well.<br /><br />@RVC<br /><br />My father's a practicing Jew, by the way. I don't want you to feel silenced. Maybe I was giving you a wee bit of a taste of what you give others that feel silenced. We can agree to disagree on some topics. However, you will find that we agree on far more topics than you think. I wish you peace, love, and many blessings in the upcoming year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-14184228452184139142009-12-28T04:46:59.236-08:002009-12-28T04:46:59.236-08:00Honeybrown,
To crown Christianity more "tole...Honeybrown,<br /><br />To crown Christianity more "tolerant" than other faiths, to me, is a wholly inaccurate, if not delusional, statement. Given how the faith has been misused as a sacred shroud to amass political and financial power, and keep certain "undesirables" in line most prominently through colonialism, racism, and heterosexist oppression, I have to wonder if you're casually overlooking these glaring issues to make your point. Ask the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the three that are left, whether their ancestors were bathed kindly in that blessed "tolerance." Dr. Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States" offers a great outline in the first couple chapters detailing (in letters) the ecstatic joy both Hernando Cortes' and Columbus' men had for their holy mission, and the slaughter of the native peoples they encountered. Oh yes: We haven't forgotten about the Crusades, right? <br /><br />Of course, we can fast forward to the tight-lipped masses of mostly white Christian ministers and parishioners Dr. King appealed to in his jailhouse letter from Birmingham. Or we can now point to the rabid mouth-foaming over gay and abortion rights by many prominent evangelical Christians and their sycophantic political and think-tank toadies. Even with all of these disturbing examples of religionists gone wild, we all know not every Christian worshipper or denomination supports their positions or believes that atrocities committed in the name of the faith many years ago were morally right. Many have tried to right wrongs. Though they're not always successful, some people of conscience within the faith have found the courage at times to shout down the deviants, zealots, and opportunists. The same goes for other faiths. We are all really, really imperfect in our interpretations, with some shining examples of greatness. That's why so many of us, including this black Jewish woman, continue to chip away at this grand faith experiment. <br /><br />I'm bothered that your comments rendered RVC Bard silent in this forum, at least for the time being, but I'll pick up here and reiterate that perhaps your views are strongly prejudiced by your deeply personal experience with your grandparents. I am truly sorry for the generational pain I suspect your family carries to this day. But, I hope you'd come to see how shortsighted it is to generalize their behavior to the entire Jewish experience and its varied, rich traditions.Leahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-86470926718060533922009-12-28T01:20:04.038-08:002009-12-28T01:20:04.038-08:00I guess Jews aren't white people, at least not...<i>I guess Jews aren't white people, at least not according to Macon'd logic.</i><br /><br />Jewishness and Whiteness are not necessarily linked. The fact that I'm talking to you now is an illustration of that.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-40724139335309654552009-12-28T01:14:40.643-08:002009-12-28T01:14:40.643-08:00I'm not sure what you're talking about, me...I'm not sure what you're talking about, mensch spotter, but as I've often said on this blog, Jews in the U.S. who look white are indeed considered white (though in historical terms, <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/07/white-quotation-of-week-karen-brodkin.html" rel="nofollow">their being welcomed into an ever-expanding notion of whiteness is relatively recent</a>).macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-14482862723702588242009-12-28T00:55:47.691-08:002009-12-28T00:55:47.691-08:00"And finally, what's up with this relativ..."And finally, what's up with this relatively new annual tradition, the wounded cries about some fictitious "War on Christmas"? Is that a "white" thing too? Why IS it that the people I see busting their blood vessels over that are always white people?"<br /><br />Well that's interesting. I guess Jews aren't white people, at least not according to Macon'd logic. Does that make Jews POC, or what?mensch spotternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75711485076156250622009-12-28T00:55:38.728-08:002009-12-28T00:55:38.728-08:00RVC,
My Jewish grandparents, my dear. The same fa...<i>RVC,<br /><br />My Jewish grandparents, my dear. The same family that disowned my dad for marrying my mother, who wasn't just black, but aghast, a Christian. As, you know, we POCs don't come in the same packaging.</i><br /><br />So you - someone who is neither a practicing Jew nor has affinity with practicing Jews - feel comfortable projecting your own prejudices onto the rest of us as a whole, regardless of what the Torah, Tanakh, Talmud, or actively Jewish people have to say about it?<br /><br />Well, you succeeded in silencing me. I have nothing else to say to you.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65208409951878665632009-12-27T21:54:21.295-08:002009-12-27T21:54:21.295-08:00"I was referring to Anti-Semitic or Anti-Isla..."I was referring to Anti-Semitic or Anti-Islamic speech by others is not tolerated. But, one has to admit, if he/she thinks logically, that Anti-Christian speech is growing (I'm not comparing it to the aforementioned groups) and while I'm not saying Christians can claim martyrdom by any means, it's not cool when any religious intolerance is utilized by anyone."<br /><br />Lets replace some of these words.<br /><br />"I was referring to Anti-black or Anti-Asian speech by others is not tolerated. But, one has to admit, if he/she thinks logically, that Anti-white speech is growing (I'm not comparing it to the aforementioned groups) and while I'm not saying whites can claim martyrdom by any means, it's not cool when any racial intolerance is utilized by anyone."<br /><br />Do you understand yet?Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-21561253709008644742009-12-27T21:21:22.498-08:002009-12-27T21:21:22.498-08:00RVC,
My Jewish grandparents, my dear. The same f...RVC, <br /><br />My Jewish grandparents, my dear. The same family that disowned my dad for marrying my mother, who wasn't just black, but aghast, a Christian. As, you know, we POCs don't come in the same packaging. <br /><br />Witchsistah,<br /><br />It's cool.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-89873865212681318392009-12-27T20:59:28.161-08:002009-12-27T20:59:28.161-08:00Wasn't trying to get you to do anything (much ...Wasn't trying to get you to do anything (much less via the internet--cuz I mean, c'mon! Really?!). Just expressing MYSELF in my own way.Witchsistahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603586060096649666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-67702139820427824102009-12-27T20:51:05.382-08:002009-12-27T20:51:05.382-08:00Out of these three religions, Christianity is the ...<i>Out of these three religions, Christianity is the most tolerant.</i><br /><br />And your extensive knowledge of Judaism (leaving off Islam since I'm not Muslim) comes from where?RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64351412809980519342009-12-27T20:42:04.010-08:002009-12-27T20:42:04.010-08:00Witchsistah,
I see what you are doing there. *win...Witchsistah,<br /><br />I see what you are doing there. *wink and laugh* But, I'm folding my arms up and not budging, lol. You won't make me say it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91493163495632299472009-12-27T20:28:23.339-08:002009-12-27T20:28:23.339-08:00RVCBard,
I was referring to their philosophies, t...RVCBard,<br /><br />I was referring to their philosophies, tenets and attitudes toward others unlike them. Out of these three religions, Christianity is the most tolerant. Some of the followers are flawed and have issues, yes. I'm not debating that. But, anyone with a basic knowledge of Religious Studies knows this. That's all I was saying.<br /><br />Once again, I stated that it's not okay to say anything Anti-Semitic or Anti-Islamic; however, for some reason, LATELY, one who is knowledgeable of things outside of their small reference pools will acknowledge the general acceptability for Anti-Christian speech.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-3207700039778892912009-12-27T20:27:57.547-08:002009-12-27T20:27:57.547-08:00Marianne thanks for your response you hit the nail...Marianne thanks for your response you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for not ignoring how many people places Jesus' within their own image including Black, Chinese and Palestinian. I don't know how the comments went from article about idealizing Jesus to origins of Christmas. <br /><br />But if anyone is interested there is the Boondocks episode "A Huey Freeman Christmas" talks about Origins of Christmas, shows Uncle Ruckus as a black Santa Claus and Huey tries to create a navitity play with a Black Jesus. Enjoy link below!<br /><br />Part 1: A Huey Freeman Christmas <br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph1itfEuzIwAanhttp://pitcher.00page.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-42158423518670592052009-12-27T20:01:05.801-08:002009-12-27T20:01:05.801-08:00Then I hope you had a Blessed Solstice, honeybrown...Then I hope you had a Blessed Solstice, honeybrown.Witchsistahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603586060096649666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-19963593384147731062009-12-27T19:19:39.695-08:002009-12-27T19:19:39.695-08:00"(Juan, I honestly don't know who you are..."(Juan, I honestly don't know who you are. But, slow your roll, you don't know me.)"<br /><br />At first my confusion was kinda like RVC's "are you serious?" reaction. But now I think you're just leaving me lost & clueless. =/ *shrug*Juannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-64146593146540601712009-12-27T18:01:12.477-08:002009-12-27T18:01:12.477-08:00I'm so sorry for having a difference of opinio...<i>I'm so sorry for having a difference of opinion.</i><br /><br />Stuff like this . . . <br /><br /><i> Judaism and Islam (which are based on many of the same principles of Christianity) and who are far less tolerant than other religions.</i><br /><br /> . . . isn't just a difference of opinion. I'll leave it to Muslims and other Jews to tell you why.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57947491216460625062009-12-27T17:56:28.157-08:002009-12-27T17:56:28.157-08:00Cloudy,
I was referring to Anti-Semitic or Anti-I...Cloudy,<br /><br />I was referring to Anti-Semitic or Anti-Islamic speech by others is not tolerated. But, one has to admit, if he/she thinks logically, that Anti-Christian speech is growing (I'm not comparing it to the aforementioned groups) and while I'm not saying Christians can claim martyrdom by any means, it's not cool when any religious intolerance is utilized by anyone. <br /><br />You can say "Happy Holidays" to the cows come home. Have fun. But, I don't. See? That's what tolerance is. I'm not knocking you by doing so as you did me. So, there's no need to wonder about me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-29559430707658831192009-12-27T17:41:00.118-08:002009-12-27T17:41:00.118-08:00honeybrown1976, When someone spray paints "ta...honeybrown1976, When someone spray paints "take a shower you dirty Christian" on your property, or accuses you of being linked with terrorists and murderers because you're a Christian, or says "Man, she really Christianed me out of my money", or seeks to ban you from wearing a cross or virgin pendant, or all the other types of things Jews and Muslims live with in this country, then you can say that they're not attacked as much.<br /><br />I have no problem saying "Happy Holidays" and wouldn't even if i was a Christian. Christmas and New Years are a scant week apart, so pluralizing "holiday" makes sense. And yes I would wish someone a happy holiday of their own religion because I accept that others have different faiths than I do and wish them well in life because no one, and that does mean you, knows anything for sure, and no one should get on their high horse claiming to. I really wonder about people who say a polite gesture is against their religion.<br /><br />You are taking part in the commercialised aspect of pagan faiths, so don't complain when others do as well.Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-89806441314270179832009-12-27T17:26:53.757-08:002009-12-27T17:26:53.757-08:00RVCBard,
I'm so sorry for having a difference...RVCBard,<br /><br />I'm so sorry for having a difference of opinion. What did you not understand? <br /><br />Witchsistah, <br /><br />Stop the pretense. I honestly don't care who you worship to and I'm not telling you to do it quietly or behind closed doors. <br /><br />Plus, for me, it would be a bit hypocritical to wish someone "Happy Holidays" when I don't recognize those days. So, I don't, which doesn't have any bearing on the strength of my faith. <br /><br />(Juan, I honestly don't know who you are. But, slow your roll, you don't know me.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-69210774947176065982009-12-27T16:50:57.377-08:002009-12-27T16:50:57.377-08:00Honeybrown, I think that is exactly what *most* pe...Honeybrown, I think that is exactly what *most* people mean when they say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, although I doubt that non-religious people would use the word "blessing" to describe it.<br /><br />My point is that the people who complain about how we've taken Christ out of Christmas seem to operate with the understanding that <i>every time</i> they say Merry Christmas, the speaker and the hearer pause to cogitate on a sermon's worth of reflection on the Meaning of the Incarnation. Which is, of course, balderdash.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-86382022781901199932009-12-27T16:39:53.900-08:002009-12-27T16:39:53.900-08:00Think I'm just gonna follow some of Commie Bas...Think I'm just gonna follow some of Commie Bastard's advice because I was stricken with a "... whut? *re-read* huh?" for a moment. Really might not be worth bothering.Juannoreply@blogger.com