tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post2696331118001767239..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: hate sagging, especially when white guys do itmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-65248322985404083142009-11-28T06:41:30.756-08:002009-11-28T06:41:30.756-08:00I will agree with you that some of this 'polic...I will agree with you that some of this 'policing' is racially motivated, but much less than you think. You stumbled right over it, but you didn't stop to look. <br />The inner-family policing comes mostly from disappointment that the 'sagger' would stoop to trends. Family simply expects more from family. So many trends are stupid and this bothers your aunts and uncles. In the current social atmosphere it is popular to over scrutinize everything and perhaps arrive at a clever acronym that we might type a little faster into our favorite blog. My nature is to trust my first impression....stupid is stupid, and if it's my relation doing it, I tell him so.Stinkeyenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16702053857880145302009-10-28T15:11:14.432-07:002009-10-28T15:11:14.432-07:00it's striking to me that everyone seems to thi...it's striking to me that everyone seems to think their disdain for sagging is a sort of isolated fashion opinion.<br /><br />i personally think it's unattractive, and it seems impractical to me. but then, most fashion is not based on practicality (and what i personally find attractive is neither here nor there unless you are trying to attract me)!<br /><br />but i find most people hard to believe when they say they think it's gross, offensive or stupid to have your boxers hanging out of your pants, considering the number of "clean young men" (you know, those wearing belts and "normal" not-baggy khakis or jeans) whose ass-crack i see on a daily basis.<br /><br />for the record, i find strangers' ass-cracks unattractive too, and a hell of a lot more objectionable than strangers' boxers. so, given that people regularly point out the sagging over the low-rise, hell yes i think it's race- or class-based!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50730467073726001992009-10-27T05:36:03.069-07:002009-10-27T05:36:03.069-07:00I dislike the saggy pants look, whether on white p...I dislike the saggy pants look, whether on white people, black people, or any other race of people. I think it looks dumb - learn how a belt works, dude! And I'd definitely call out a friend about it, or comment to my friends about it if I'm out of earshot of the person wearing the saggy pants, although I would just say it looks dumb, not that it looks "black."<br /><br />Sorry, but I don't see how this makes me racist.<br /><br />And if a restaurant wants to insist on appropriate attire for entry, I don't see the problem, so long as it is enforced for all people, not based on race. (The examples you've given of racist enforcement of the rule are awful - but could as easily have been enforced/not enforced based on race, with a "ties required" or a "no tee shirts" rule.)<br /><br />Heck, the health code even requires shirts and shoes. If a restaurant wants to make sure your pants stay on your butt, too, I consider that a bonus.<br /><br />I wish they'd ban "muffin tops" too - another look I just don't understand.<br /><br />I've been turned away from restaurants for wearing shorts instead of a skirt or pants, and I didn't start yelling about gender bias. I just went to a different restaurant, and made a mental note to dress up a bit more next time if I wanted to go to that particular restaurant.I'm not a racistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-50862488667770133912009-10-22T12:11:26.668-07:002009-10-22T12:11:26.668-07:00@wriggles - You raised a point that's very int...@wriggles - You raised a point that's very interesting to me. I'd love to see a post about race policing in general, by all races. I think we'd get a much clearer picture of racism in this country if we opened up the discussion beyond what just white people do.Vicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-61284075715046281162009-10-22T11:21:30.471-07:002009-10-22T11:21:30.471-07:00I think some people still feel that certain black ...I think some people still feel that certain black cultures, especially are intrinsically degenerate. They cannot get that in the same way that blacks can study or be influenced by mainstream or European culture, that vice can be versa without feeling it's a loss to the dark side!<br /><br />Actually, I don't think this race policing is specifically white at all, in fact, I know it isn't.wriggleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12373644421447147066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26584667598582440012009-10-21T18:03:20.422-07:002009-10-21T18:03:20.422-07:00Personally I think sagging pants with your underwe...Personally I think sagging pants with your underwear showing and your butt crack hanging out is really really really disgusting - on any race. And I'm 26, not sure if that puts me in "the younger generation" or not but it was popular when I was in high school.<br /><br />I also find giant stretched ear piercings repulsive enough to make me want to vomit, and that's a primarily white thing. Oh and girls who wear thongs showing over low rise jeans. That's so white. Especially if they have a tramp stamp tattoo showing over the nasty thong.<br /><br />I don't see how this is a race thing...it's totally just a fashion thing.Elisabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05939100173998555327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-44759598077901070902009-10-21T09:09:42.862-07:002009-10-21T09:09:42.862-07:00Becca said...
"I don't think people shou...Becca said...<br /><br /><i>"I don't think people should be given crap for how they dress - "</i><br /><br />Um... if my friends walked down the street with a garbage bag over their heads... yeah... I'm gonna give them crap. It's about the fashion. Not who's wearing it.<br /><br />Just because <i>some</i> people associate saggy pants with a certain race doesn't mean that everyone who opposes that fashion oppose it because of race. Honestly, I think most of the people who don't like saggy pants are disliking the fashion, not being racist.Elsarielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-70460996776764573862009-10-21T08:11:12.415-07:002009-10-21T08:11:12.415-07:00Hey Alan,
You do realize that Europeans still imm...Hey Alan,<br /><br />You do realize that Europeans still immigrate to Australia, right? I'm being facetious of course. Clearly you don't realize that.Sagatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-85523955822725813402009-10-21T08:08:42.754-07:002009-10-21T08:08:42.754-07:00I think part of the crazy reactions to the sagging...I think part of the crazy reactions to the sagging-pants white guy is that people don't just see it as fashion, they see it as cultural expression and people in general seem to be uncomfortable with people wearing the outfits from other ethnicities. I can't count the number of time I've seen brown guys laugh at or make derisive comments about white girls who wear saris or other Indian attire. Or black girls throwing disdainful looks or comments at non-black girls in a head wrap - or at other black girls who speak standard English. <br /><br />I don't think people should be given crap for how they dress - regardless of what ethnicity it's originally associated with, but any time people "put on" something we see as outside their culture - be it clothing or mannerisms, we - people of all ethnicities - get annoyed. Some people, irrationally, get angry. It's not ok, but it's also not specific to white folks.Beccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-59786067709331930982009-10-21T08:07:07.925-07:002009-10-21T08:07:07.925-07:00Yes Alan, I am that old. Didn't you know? They...Yes Alan, I am that old. Didn't you know? They invented a pill in the late 1700s that'll help you live for hundreds of years. *rolls eyes*<br /><br />Here you go. A bit of homework for you: <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_literature#First_and_second_generation_migrants<br /><br />Some scholars are also using the term '1.5 generation' to refer to those who migrate as a child or teenager with their parents to indicate that their experience would be different from both the first and second generation.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-42892749248774076302009-10-21T04:16:34.874-07:002009-10-21T04:16:34.874-07:00Hey Fromthetropics, how the hell did you meet 1st ...Hey Fromthetropics, how the hell did you meet 1st generation European migrants to Australia??????<br />The year was 1788, you are THAT old?reboihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499647863211177390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-3026980076576189792009-10-21T00:25:16.249-07:002009-10-21T00:25:16.249-07:00I'm white. I hate sagging. I call people out o...I'm white. I hate sagging. I call people out on sagging. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think of myself as a racist. In my opinion, the fashion looks bad, plus it's impractical and seemingly pointless. <br /><br />You see, I'm a philosopher, and I'm eternally focused on the question "why?" These are people my age walking around with their jeans around their knees, constantly having to pull them up (or all-too-often simply holding them up), and I've approached dozens of them, white, black, hispanic, asian, native american, and probably more, with the simple question "why" and they have unanimously answered that they didn't know. That's why it bothers me. If you're making a fashion statement, that's cool. If you're too lazy to put on a friggin' belt or feel as though you're made better by buying your pants twice as big as they need to be, that's not so cool.<br /><br />In short, my beef against this particular fashion is not racial in nature. It stems, instead, from a hatred for those who don't feel the need to think about anything they do.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22152458803806638572009-10-20T12:58:00.293-07:002009-10-20T12:58:00.293-07:00To those that have said that white people should l...To those that have said that white people should look up their questions on the internet, well that's not really a healthy solution. Do minorities need to be researched like some science project? As a POC myself, I've found many other minorities tend to be overly sensitive about racial curiosity. If you actually truly believe in multi-culturalism, then you need to expect and encourage free expression. The idea that everyone's feelings need to be protected is a bit insulting, as if POCs are little children that can't accept questioning or criticism. Unfortunately, the thin skinned and loud mouthed have poisoned the well with constant cries of racism. <br /><br />Sometimes we have to accept that other people are not as informed or even opened minded. I live in the South, so I deal with ignorance pretty much daily. It can get taxing, but I've come to realize that most people are good and not malicious. Some people just don't understand things; some people don't want to, but others truly do. I think it's best to encourage those that aren't afraid to speak openly to do so, because just as you don't want your voice silenced, you should give others the same courtesy.Sagatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-16720814195463409402009-10-20T05:54:57.988-07:002009-10-20T05:54:57.988-07:00Good post and great comments. Kingfisher yours esp...Good post and great comments. Kingfisher yours especially touched me because growing up as a child of the 80s and hearing about the positivity in the 70s always made me wonder wtf happened to us. Like you I normally see the speech and clothing as a mockery unless I know the person grew up with or has strong ties to the black community.<br /><br />For me seeing someone sag and immitate the speech of kids I grew up with differs based on where they're coming from with it. A rich trust-fund baby acting like that amongst his peers who are of one shade rings suspect to me versus a neighbor who was raised in the hood like everyone else.<br /><br />Still I don't judge anybody, I could care less, until I get the all encompassing "why do black people ----?" questions where I either ask the person "should I answer for an entire set of people?" if i'm being nice, or tell them to get out of my face if I'm not in the mood.<br /><br />Sagging is on the way out anyway, kids wear painted on nut crunchers nowadays and call em skinny jeans.Greg Dragonhttp://www.halloftheblackdragon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-3170669256605273782009-10-19T16:16:13.920-07:002009-10-19T16:16:13.920-07:00@kingfisher--
i appreciate your honesty. in writ...@kingfisher--<br /><br />i appreciate your honesty. in writing this post i was mainly trying to answer some of my own feelings on this. my brother (who is my only sibling) and i are very close, and aside from the fact that we look very similar people wouldn't guess that we're related (this is based solely on what he wears, and how he speaks vs. what i wear and how i speak, i.e. "white."). i've found myself having to answer to other relatives about why he dresses the way he does and why he talks "that way." so part of it is me being defensive over my younger brother. i cannot speak for other white guys that sag, but in my brother's case at least i know he doesn't dress and talk the way he does to mock anyone. for him, he was just fitting in with the kids we went to school with. he certainly knows he still exists with white privilege, and he's aware that there's a lot of history and culture beyond fashion and speech mannerisms that he cannot attempt to appropriate. <br /><br />as for the comments on goth, i used this as an example since in my own very limited experience it didn't seem like there was much hatred for that vs. sagging. that doesn't mean i'm even close to being right, so thanks to everyone who pointed that out. although there were admittedly few goth students at my high school, and those few were actually the majority of the white kids there (our school was predominately black).FilthyGrandeurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08939478425921080818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46070724796333042062009-10-19T15:28:07.596-07:002009-10-19T15:28:07.596-07:00“Hi, niggers!”
“What’s a nigger?” I say to my lit...“Hi, niggers!”<br /><br />“What’s a nigger?” I say to my little white girlfriend who uttered the phrase. “Oh, it’s something that black people don’t like to be called.”<br /><br />I was five years old, nineteen seventies. I asked my mother about this and that day she explained to me that I was black and that some people were what you called “prejudiced” meaning that they might not like you, although they really didn’t know you. They judged you because of your appearance. “Ok”, I said. As I grew up, mom told me more things about my heritage, my family. Mom told me about how there used to be a thing called segregation. She told me about slavery. She told me about how hard it had been for my grandparents, my great-grandmother, who was still living. The dignity with which they lived and held themselves, the sacrifices they made, was inspirational to me. My grandfather told stories of times when he was almost killed. My heart swelled with pride when Mom told me about Rosa Parks, Dr. Martin Luther King, jr, Thurgood Marshall, the sit-ins, the bus boicots.<br /><br />She made sure that I had a lot of positive black role models. Education was key. Say it strong, say it loud, I was black and proud!<br /><br />I remember how black people called each other brother and sister. I belonged to a community, I had a strong family and a lot of positive feeling behind me. When I was a little girl, there was black music and there was white music. We listened to black music, soul music. Earth, Wind and Fire, Marvin Gaye, a slew of others. But the message was generally positive. “You´re a shining star, no matter who you are Shining bright to see what you can truly be You´re a shining star, no matter who you are”.<br /><br />I don’t have much space here. A lot has passed since then, my musical tastes have expanded, etc. and I don’t want to go on too long, but the point that I want to make is this, if Macon is trying to figure out what it means to be white, well here I am in the age of hip hop trying to figure out what it means to be black. I feel that a lot of people have reduced my entire culture to hip hop fashion, hip hop lyrics and putting on what John McWorther, who is a linguist at Columbia, would call a “blaccent”. Some black people of lower economic backgrounds really do have that accent, they can’t help it, and they get discriminated against when they apply for jobs, when they try to find a place to live, etc. I really don’t mean to offend anyone here, I am just saying how ambivalent white people wearing their trousers below their butts and talking with a “blaccent” make me feel. This seems a reductionist view of Black life and it bothers me, especially when so many of the images and lyrics in a lot of hip hop music are not uplifting, I am sorry to say. It bothers me that white people do this, because it seems so shallow an understanding of our experience. I almost feel like I am being mocked. So, I guess I have to say that I don’t feel much sympathy for a white guy who doesn’t understand the nuances of black life enough to know about things like “code changing” when he talks to the landlord and who at the end of the day when hip hop goes out of fashion can just go back to being white. I wish I didn’t have to say that. I don’t mean to be hurtful to anyone. I’m just being honest about how I felt reading this post.kingfishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-69946278544257312112009-10-19T15:14:38.811-07:002009-10-19T15:14:38.811-07:00And now that I read Willow's comments, I concu...And now that I read Willow's comments, I concur...I do get the broader point, but I don't know that this is the best example of it.<br /><br />Hip hop, incidentally, would have triggered a totally different set of emotions in me, too...<br /><br />Mildly funny and weirdly racial story - a few years ago in an unnamed Mideast country, I was talking to a guy there about Mobb Deep and all of a sudden, he just freaked out like "but you're a WHITE GIRL! you can't listen to THAT"<br /><br />Um, WTF?Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792137126898623243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57328284215128652182009-10-19T15:10:14.706-07:002009-10-19T15:10:14.706-07:00Thank you for this piece - and I can definitely se...Thank you for this piece - and I can definitely see how, in this instance, it is definitely racially motivated.<br /><br />That said, I do take issue with this statement: "It's especially evident that this condescension and hate is not as pronounced when we're talking about a predominately white youth culture (think goth)."<br /><br />I really really think that depends on where you are. Where I'm from, goth kids get beat up, and white kids who sag their pants absolutely do not. They're the alpha dogs. If by your statement, you meant that there's more hate FROM WHITE ADULTS, then I'm going to trust that you're correct. But more hate? When was the last time a young person got killed for sagging?<br /><br /><br />---<br /><br />On a semi-separate note, I couldn't help but think about Bill Cosby's statements against sagging. Would any PoC like to comment on their feelings about that? I'm just curious, since I noticed a lot of (older) white people nodding along with him when he made them.Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792137126898623243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-73560051515064284672009-10-19T09:23:35.008-07:002009-10-19T09:23:35.008-07:00@badger, I'm fully aware I have some racist at...@badger, I'm fully aware I have some racist attitudes hiding in my brain. That's why I read this blog, because it helps me realize my own racist attitudes and behaviors, and therefore try to change them.<br /><br />As for my story, it seemed clear to me that my coworker was showing racism. She could have said "my kid came home with bad grammar," but she specifically used the word "Ebonics," which to me is a racially loaded word, and suggests she was specifically referring to black people. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I got from it.<br /><br />Shrug. I never claimed to be an enlightened anything.notemilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01314181692027225820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75124277272443953632009-10-19T06:05:38.313-07:002009-10-19T06:05:38.313-07:00None of the Black people I know like to be associa...None of the Black people I know like to be associated with saggy pants, hoods, or even Ebonics - to notemily. Broken English is something some Black people deeply resent when it's said to represent them, when it's said to be "Black culture", because it leads to more negative stereotyping. Maybe your own attitude is racist, think about it, before you come up with another "enlightened white girl" ignorant story.<br /><br />As for saggy pants, I think they look stupid on anyone, like you shit your pants on the way to the toilet. But no one should be bullied for their fashion choices, it's a free country.badgernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-74145589022129250162009-10-18T22:12:07.039-07:002009-10-18T22:12:07.039-07:00How funny. Here in Australia, where it has no conn...How funny. Here in Australia, where it has no connection to prison culture at all, "sagging" (I've never heard the phrase before) is most commonly associated with hipsters in skinny jeans. The general objection to it is that no one wants to see your underpants, and it makes look like an idiot. I wasn't even aware that in the States it had racial connections. You learn a new thing every day.Jenrobenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-83215963464178536822009-10-18T11:56:01.486-07:002009-10-18T11:56:01.486-07:00Truly?
Everyone I know tells every guy who sags h...Truly?<br /><br />Everyone I know tells every guy who sags his pants (or every girl whose thong is showing) to pull them the fuck up, regardless of ethnicity.<br /><br />It's disgusting and careless, regardless.superficial readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-42541795928042153212009-10-18T09:46:49.601-07:002009-10-18T09:46:49.601-07:00Okay, so it sounds like asking respectful question...Okay, so it sounds like asking respectful questions of POC about race might be all right, as long as the rest of the conversation is equally respectful, and it usually isn't. Interesting. Thanks for sharing your views on that, Siditty and fromthetropics.<br /><br />This conversation on sagging is instructive. I don't know that I can add much to it, not even having really been aware of the style as a "black culture" thing. What it says to me, personally, is "I want to prove what a badass I am, so take a look at my ass. It is bad, is it not?"<br /><br />And I avoid groups of guys who wear the style, because young men in groups who have a need to prove their masculinity to one another can be dangerous and/or misogynistic. But I've seen guys of all races wear it, starting with my white suburban-dwelling cousin, so it doesn't really ever come off as a black thing to me.bluey512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-88071993930973571932009-10-17T22:17:10.236-07:002009-10-17T22:17:10.236-07:00I have an "acting black" story.
I was t...I have an "acting black" story.<br /><br />I was talking to one of my (white) coworkers a few months ago. She homeschools her kids, and she was talking about how homeschooling was fine for now, but she didn't know what she was going to do when they got to high school. I suggested the local public high school, which is right on the border of the "white" and "black" parts of town and so is very diverse. I suggested this school because I have several (white) friends who went there and raved about it.<br /><br />She said "I don't know, I sent my son to public school for a while, but he came back talking in Ebonics. I don't want him bringing home that kind of thing."<br /><br />I was kind of appalled, but didn't say anything, because we were at work and I didn't want to start an argument. I'll never forget that, though. She's so afraid her son will start picking up aspects of black culture that she rules out certain schools simply because black people attend them. She didn't say it that way, of course, but that's what she was essentially saying.notemilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01314181692027225820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-8372355385765761432009-10-17T12:49:22.581-07:002009-10-17T12:49:22.581-07:00"What if you are a white person who does not ...<i>"What if you are a white person who does not have the privilege of regular internet access?"</i><br /><br />Public libraries. Sit at a bookstore cafe with a book and read the whole thing while you're there. Or hell, buy a book. Free speakers at colleges and community centers.<br /><br />Or, y'know, the next time you are about to accuse a POC of "playing the race card," stop yourself a moment and <i>listen to what they are saying</i>. Chances are, it's something about racism that you probably need to hear.Willownoreply@blogger.com