tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post2464562276815932704..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: ignore the ugly lies and brutality buried beneath the fantasy of "thanksgiving"macon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6682647369943308912009-12-03T10:34:23.093-08:002009-12-03T10:34:23.093-08:00Thordaddy,
I'm not entirely sure what your co...Thordaddy,<br /><br />I'm not entirely sure what your comment meant but it sounds like you were 1. challenging the "nationhood" of the first peoples in what is now U.S. and 2. argueing semantics about the term "Indians" to refer to them.<br /><br />1. true, there was not a nation of Indians confronted with genocide. There was and is hundreds of nations in what is now the U.S. that faced and face genocide. There is a difference between nationhood and statehood.<br /><br />2. The debate about what to call the Indigenous Peoples of the Americas is a debate that I believe ought to be reserved for those people. Yes, "Indian" is a loaded term, but it is also a widely accepted term amongst large numbers of such people, for many reasons. (One such quote from a conference of North American First Nations that I cannot actually remember the specific who and when (help me out if anyone else heard this one) was something like, "We became Indians when they took our land, we'll be Indians until we take it back. After that we can call ourselves whatever the hell we want!") This is much the same as the Black vs. African-American debate or the gay vs. queer debate and others. Not everyone agrees entirely with one or the other term. If a specific person or people is requesting a specific term, hopefully that will be respected. Otherwise, I tend to trust that socially conscious people are trying to speak in a conscious way.<br /><br />I would prefer to acknowledge the bigger pictures that Macon is addressing rather than nitpick details as if we can actually speak for others. I'm guessing, Thordaddy, that from your name's reference to a northern European deity, that you are not a Native American.Guessingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-23714748086934995912009-12-01T20:42:25.248-08:002009-12-01T20:42:25.248-08:00One pedant point: The article mentions taking the ...One pedant point: The article mentions taking the Union Jack off the Mayflower's mast, but the Act of Union was only passed in 1707, 87 years after the Mayflower.Colin Daynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32539077684981173702009-11-29T18:38:30.319-08:002009-11-29T18:38:30.319-08:00Macon,
What's more mythical than the notion o...Macon,<br /><br />What's more mythical than the notion of genocide being committed against a "nation" of "Indians" AND this represents the Truth of Thanksgiving?Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-25430169840633124182009-11-29T07:30:20.750-08:002009-11-29T07:30:20.750-08:00Thanks for the post. Very eye-opening. And I feel ...Thanks for the post. Very eye-opening. And I feel like this shouldn't really be restricted to things white people do but things Americans of every race do. Whether we come from a European background or not, we still benefit from the history of discrimination and persecution against American Indians. We should all reflect.Rainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-80376844491904778232009-11-28T18:27:45.905-08:002009-11-28T18:27:45.905-08:00It may once have been about myths and stories, and...It may once have been about myths and stories, and this clings in the older generations, but it's now about turkey and family.<br /><br />And "slacktivism" really is a great word.<br /><br />Thanksgiving is very obviously not going away. One of the best things to do is to keep altering and coopting it until it's completely severed from the myths and stands alone as a simple harvest festival.<br /><br />And the very best thing to do is to actually DO something that actually HELPS Native Americans the other days of the year.<br /><br />Also, one needs to keep in mind that the mourning group is in New England, where the myths are pushed much more heavily as "local history". I think the locals there are much more likely to feel defensive than other parts of the US, which brings me back to what I said in an earlier posts: we need to change the schools. We need to stop teaching them to begin with, this will have a much greater and far-reaching effect than boycotting a holiday.Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-7950662819192112422009-11-28T17:41:24.391-08:002009-11-28T17:41:24.391-08:00Jasmine wondered how 'snapping at someone for ...Jasmine wondered how 'snapping at someone for saying "Happy Thanksgiving" is beneficial to Native American people.'<br /><br />I wonder how the opposite would be beneficial to Native American people?<br /><br />Sure, people who 'bah humbug' Thanksgiving may not be doing anything useful - but I can't really see how celebrating it is doing anything useful for Native American people either.<br /><br />Because I'm not sure that 'doing something useful for the Native Americans' is what Thanksgiving is about - it seems to be about the myths and stories we tell each other, rather than the actions we take in our daily lives.<br /><br />I for one see the value in questioning the myths.<br /><br />Nice post Macon.cinnamon girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547856129124479433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-67168088064639464582009-11-28T10:48:15.783-08:002009-11-28T10:48:15.783-08:00I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me...I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how snapping at someone for saying "Happy Thanksgiving" is beneficial to Native American people. Someone in another post used the excellent word "slacktivism", and that's exactly what this sounds like to me. Find me someone who sat around the table on Thursday and said, "Let's give thanks for the pilgrims who came over and worked peacefully with the savage Injuns to tame this American wilderness" and then maybe I'll care. The recurring theme seems to be that people are always striving to be "right" (because I guess that winning over the hearts and minds of strangers on the internet is oh-so-important), but no one actually takes action. Let's all keep high-fiving each other for being "enlightened"--I'm sure the people living in poverty will appreciate it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-37277847446730486672009-11-28T08:27:13.947-08:002009-11-28T08:27:13.947-08:00I find it so interesting at how defensive people g...I find it so interesting at how defensive people get when they are called out for just blindly celebrating a holiday that is rooted in the massacre of a nation of people. Look, we can't change that it happened, but we CAN talk openly and honestly about the injustice that is STILL happening on reservations all over the country. I, for one, am thankful to Macon for not letting this "holiday" go by without mentioning it.My name is Erin.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11804807199446678942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-85459525293497190802009-11-27T22:54:11.274-08:002009-11-27T22:54:11.274-08:00As a black person in the Afro- diaspora, If we hav...As a black person in the Afro- diaspora, If we have to change Thanksgiving altogether to accurately reflect the historical facts and not myths, I will support it. Things like these should not be brushed under the rug or simply be told to get over it. If full blooded Natives see this holiday as a Day of Mourning, I fully respect that and it should be recognized by America.Katnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-11849157023392470742009-11-27T20:15:33.250-08:002009-11-27T20:15:33.250-08:00Huh, AE, I was under the assumption that I was bir...Huh, AE, I was under the assumption that I was biracial. Thanks for clearing that up for me, internet stranger!Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-89173220978977180172009-11-27T18:49:56.574-08:002009-11-27T18:49:56.574-08:00You know what else white Americans do? And others,...You know what else white Americans do? And others, I guess--focus on one minor detail of a post on racism, so that they can ignore the rest of the post on racism. <br /><br />Look at how many readers here are hitting on macon for saying to one person (who seems to have taken it well) that "Happy Thanksgiving!" isn't the best thing to say. Actually, it's been a great demonstration of the point of this post--they're probably focusing on that minor detail as a way of ignoring the ugly lies and brutality buried beneath the fantasy of "Thanksgiving." <br /><br />I suppose they're well-trained Americans; they've been doing that for so long that it's become a habit.AEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-44525725057761809912009-11-27T18:32:28.469-08:002009-11-27T18:32:28.469-08:00I'm going to have to agree with Cloudy. Refusi...I'm going to have to agree with Cloudy. Refusing to celebrate Thanksgiving does absolutely nothing to help Native American people (who needs "solidarity" when you don't have running water?). I don't this is the intent, but it comes off as another way for White people to assuage their guilt about past events, basically making it more selfish than anything else. I think volunteering to feed the homeless, contributing to Native American scholarship funds, etc. <b>any day</b> are all worthwhile ways of spending Thanksgiving, but running around saying "Bah, humbug!" certainly won't get a pat on the back from me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63694158577404605672009-11-27T18:18:15.142-08:002009-11-27T18:18:15.142-08:00A very, VERY interesting and informative blog.
I ...A very, VERY interesting and informative blog. <br />I acknowledge, however, that the Holiday has evolved over time -- quite a lot. If we keep sharing information like this with others around us, I'm sure it'll evolve further to something more like a day of morning ... maybe "Native American Day" or the "Genocide of the Natives Day" or something like that. <br /><br />Peace!Shanuhttp://qrratugai.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-18774812201740774492009-11-27T16:05:32.034-08:002009-11-27T16:05:32.034-08:00>> "If you look at the highest level of...>> <i>"If you look at the highest level of cultural development available to any culture of the time it was barely ethnocentric"</i><br /><br />Bwahahaha tell that to the Jews in 14th century Europe.<br /><br />>> <i>"you are claiming to take the culture values that have only existed for the past hundred years and place them on top of the cultural values of 16/17th century cultures."</i><br /><br />No, I am saying that prejudice against (for example) women and <b>a signficiant and growing conscious awareness of this</b> existed in Europe prior to the invasion of the Americas. Christine de Pisan, for example. Less famously, Clare of Assisi. Or, from the other direction, when women started to act autonomously, (for example) the Church was <i>very</i> quick to stomp it out (using language that makes them sound like premodern MRAs, interestingly enough).<br /><br />I will grant that we can't talk about discrimination against "gays and lesbians" because there was no concept of "a gay man" or "a lesbian," but there <i>were</i> harsh consequences for acts considered to be sodomy. (Which I think was the actual point of the site quoted in the OP--I have a feeling that the website is written so as to be understand by regular people, meaning using terms common to today, not aimed <i>exclusively</i> at people who eat Dasein for breakfast. Which, IMHO, is a good thing).<br /><br />>> <i>"I understand postmodern theory well enough considering I have a masters in philosophy."</i><br /><br />Well, given what you've said above, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you focused on Plato.<br /><br /><i>Sorry for the tangent/derail, everyone.</i>Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-84343101398536168422009-11-27T13:59:22.072-08:002009-11-27T13:59:22.072-08:00Most of us are aware that the Thanksgiving story i...Most of us are aware that the Thanksgiving story is not as cut and dry as "they" would have us believe so suggesting "happy thanksgiving" is a terrible thing to say was a wasted chance to have a nice exchange with someone.Alexisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12229947756670482782009-11-27T12:49:52.439-08:002009-11-27T12:49:52.439-08:00Nubbies,
I guarantee you I have read FAR more tha...Nubbies, <br />I guarantee you I have read FAR more than you think I have. I understand postmodern theory well enough considering I have a masters in philosophy.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00417846036197598101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82813792261725870652009-11-27T12:17:42.268-08:002009-11-27T12:17:42.268-08:00Cloudy,
Where did I say or imply that all Native ...Cloudy,<br /><br />Where did I say or imply that all Native Americans feel or think in one way? That would be a ridiculous, terrible thing for me to say, or even imply.<br /><br />As for sanctimonious jerkiness, I should have clarified in the original post that I said what I said to a particular friend, a person who already knows how I am about such things (and so, it actually did "open dialogue"). I wouldn't say such a thing, at least not in that way, to just anyone who blithely and sincerely wished me a "Happy Thanksgiving."<br /><br />So yes, I disagree with what you basically seem to be saying in this thread -- that because few Americans think about Thanksgiving in connection with Native Americans anymore, I should just drift along with America's selective, self-serving historical amnesia, and stop bringing up the ongoing connections that Americans of today still have to racialized theft, rape, genocide, and so on. I know that most Americans think I should just shut up and eat. But then, I usually resist floating along with the current; after all, dead fish do that, not live ones.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-76308798459803533992009-11-27T11:41:43.445-08:002009-11-27T11:41:43.445-08:00Actually macon, Ee ve elle said it best. It really...Actually macon, Ee ve elle said it best. It really does just make you come across as brittle, sanctimonious jerk. And not all Native Americans feel that way. You can open dialogue without castigating people who more than likely are NOT thinking all the things you're blindly attributing to them. You're acting very, well.... white.Cloudynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-79452132415195632062009-11-27T11:01:36.098-08:002009-11-27T11:01:36.098-08:00Jason, the only way your argument went over his he...Jason, the only way your argument went over his head is if your ass was perched above it. I suggest you read some information on Native cultures and learn what postmodernism means.nubbiesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-86224749712157689522009-11-27T09:09:01.179-08:002009-11-27T09:09:01.179-08:00Willow,
Yes, those "things" vastly pre-d...Willow,<br />Yes, those "things" vastly pre-date post modern times and terms probably wasn't the best word to use. What I mean is, even though all those things happened, you have to look at those times 16/17th century through the lens of the "available" ideas of values/morality at the time. Sexism, anti gay bias, those values simply were not "available" to any culture of the time, both the white/euro settlers and the natives of this land, (evidence to contrary for the natives is pure romanticism). I am not quite simply talking out my ass, you are claiming to take the culture values that have only existed for the past hundred years and place them on top of the cultural values of 16/17th century cultures. If you look at the highest level of cultural development available to any culture of the time it was barely ethnocentric, and yes I did say highest, because there is such a thing as development, not just power. Study up, and don't embarrass yourself Willow because my argument went right over your head.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00417846036197598101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-26320138909636792132009-11-27T08:43:52.837-08:002009-11-27T08:43:52.837-08:00>> "The thing is, they didn't becau...>> <i>"The thing is, they didn't because all of those terms, those ideas are 19th/20th century postmodern constructs. They literally did not exist during that time, therefor you are placing those terms on that time and saying what took place is that."</i><br /><br />Wait, what?<br /><br />The *terms* did not exist. However, the situations they indicated--discrimination based on sex, who you have sex with (at least sometimes), and ethnicity/origin were very much real. Have you ever heard of the Bible, for example? Ezekiel castigates the people of Israel by referring to them as the descendants of an Amorite and a Hittite, who by the way are from the land of the Canaanites. Or you can read the writings of 16th century (that would be 1500s, so, pre-Pilgrims) European scholars who debate whether "dark skinned" people of the Western Hemisphere have <i>souls</i>. Perhaps you'd prefer<br />something like Platonism, where "male" is associated with straight, light, and other things that were considered good qualities, whereas female is associated with bent, dark, and other things that were considered bad qualities.<br /><br />I know very little about sex, sexuality, and perceptions of race/ethnicity in the Americas before the European invasion. But what I do know is that prejudices based on ethnicity, sex and who people have sex with vastly predate "postmodern" times. And, by the way, if you bothered to do any research yourself, you would find that the postmodern thinkers you claim invented power discourse actually refer to racism, sexism, and heterosexism as inventions of <i>Modern</i> society. Chronologically, it would be very hard to consider first wave and pre-first wave feminists, who were very explicit about revealing sexism in society, as postmodern.<br /><br />So basically, when you claim sexism, racism, and homophobia are "postmodern," you are quite simply talking out of your ass.Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-13845357472247615912009-11-27T07:57:47.449-08:002009-11-27T07:57:47.449-08:00I'm not sure it's so obscure and centuries...I'm not sure it's so obscure and centuries-old for the native peoples who are still suffering today.Chervnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-20573536791038522722009-11-27T07:32:41.123-08:002009-11-27T07:32:41.123-08:00shut up and eat,
Nothing was "spoiled" ...shut up and eat,<br /><br />Nothing was "spoiled" by what I said. And I wasn't whining when I said it -- how a person says such things matters, a lot. I wasn't "moping," and I know that I didn't come across as a know-it-all.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-9996190262169098382009-11-27T07:29:24.702-08:002009-11-27T07:29:24.702-08:00"Along the way, I told a friend who greeted m..."Along the way, I told a friend who greeted me with "Happy Thanksgiving!" that that was a terrible thing to say, and that I wasn't feeling "thankful" for the results of the genocidal past that landed me here. That literally "landed" me here."<br /><br />You're representing a disposition that transcends race and ethnicity, the moping know-it-all that would spoil a nice family get-together or even a casual encounter to whine about some obscure, centuries old injustice.shut up and eatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-35749411970871757192009-11-26T22:34:33.965-08:002009-11-26T22:34:33.965-08:00This blog is so intellectually bankrupt sometimes ...This blog is so intellectually bankrupt sometimes its hard to read. Here is my issue with this post.<br />The article states, that the european/white settlers brought "sexism, racism, anti-lesbian and gay bigotry, jails, and the class system to these shores." <br />The thing is, they didn't because all of those terms, those ideas are 19th/20th century postmodern constructs. They literally did not exist during that time, therefor you are placing those terms on that time and saying what took place is that. You can't take postmodern ideas and reappropriate them to the past. You can point out that what actually happened back then and say that "now" these things are considered such and such, which is fine. But to suggest as the article seems to, that back in 17th century that sexism, racism, gay/lesbian bigotry was brought to these shores as if anyone or any culture had access to these concepts or were at a developmental level higher than ethnocentric is absurd, and simply not true. The fact is despite all horrible things,(what we know call horrible, back then was probably simply the highest cultural development level accessible)had many positives, which I am sure you and many of your readers will reject out of hand, simply because the postmodern ideas of one group having power over other groups is just the simple fact that you live by as is the ridiculously out dated concept of social construction of which the anti-racism is based. All I am saying is that your view is narrow, not as narrow as the millions of Americans who believe those traditonal thanksgiving myths, but narrow enough to create a postmodern myth of european/white settlers engaging in acts at the time were no worse than found anywhere else in world, including native americans, and don't trump out that any of that they had no genocide bullshit, cause it's just as much a myth as any of the others.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00417846036197598101noreply@blogger.com