tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post2295641101400973472..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: label things they refuse to understand "insane"macon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-78837725518519427512010-02-26T18:33:06.675-08:002010-02-26T18:33:06.675-08:00Moi - thank you for this post.
While it was all f...Moi - thank you for this post.<br /><br />While it was all fantastic, your final and third points struck me particularly hard.<br /><br />For the final point: that Jay's ending thought of the whole discussion could be summed up as "she's mad at me" brings up a couple questions. Does this relate back to the perception that every time a PoC points out racism, they're just being Angry For The Sake Of It? Or was his automatic impression that, rather than wanting to address and discuss an issue with him, you were actively accusing him? Though that feels like it still ties into the first question.<br /><br />Am I imagining it, or do a ridiculous number of us (WP) get this cringy, dog--that-just-peed-on-the-carpet, "oh man, I'm going to get my bottom spanked and then I'll have to apologize to the PoC for existing, couldn't we just not talk about this" response to racism coming up? Some get really wounded by it, as if noticing and pointing out racism is worse than the racism actually taking place. Of course, another WP is just as 'guilty' as they are, so even if they say the same thing as a PoC, they won't punish us/get unreasonably mad at us, so we stop cringing and actively (in theory) listen.<br /><br />For the third point, Appalachia: Jay, even though very obviously a compassionate and empathetic man, still couldn't make the connection between the situation in the Appalachians and the effect of colonialism in the rest of the world. By the same token, America as a country is blind (willfully? I wouldn't doubt it) to the situation we create in Appalachia. Do these two lacks of intuitive thinking and self-analysis come from the same place? <br /><br />Or is it all linked together with the first point -- that WP can only perceive the statement "this is wrong for these reasons" as <i>anger</i>, that pointing out problems is <i>negative</i> and wrong in and of itself? I'm thinking of Neo-con groups and the constant accusation of "you just hate America". Because looking at our country critically, analyzing the ways in which our policies breed terrorists on both our own soil and abroad, and working constructively to correct them is <i>hate</i>. <br /><br />I saw this idea rear it's ugly head during a panel on the actions and war crimes of G.W. Bush some years ago; the lawyer investigating it could admit that yes, he did commit war crimes, but balked at actually putting the man on trail. Why? Because it would weaken the country's faith in it's leadership, of course. It's bad publicity and that's ever so important.sadiekohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05427963519406321325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-12680393528362084272010-02-26T09:33:47.593-08:002010-02-26T09:33:47.593-08:00Instead of projecting our own sense of motivation,...Instead of projecting our own sense of motivation, why don't we actually go to the horse's mouth?<br /><br />Courtesy of the Guardian, <br /><br /><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver</a>, Bin Laden's letter to America.<br /><br />[way-long excerpts from BL's letter redacted. ~macon]<br /><br />So in this letter he cites everything from the fact that the state of Israel exists to our tolerance of homosexuality to the fact that so many in America aren't Muslim. So it's really anyone's game.LurkinHonkeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-2703384751203071492010-02-26T03:00:06.332-08:002010-02-26T03:00:06.332-08:00This was a great post, Moi.This was a great post, Moi.luckyfatimahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09401964343346156712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-24445423368074501982010-02-24T10:13:13.994-08:002010-02-24T10:13:13.994-08:00[no slappz, this post is not about whether Stack w...[no slappz, this post is not about whether Stack was a terrorist or not; it's about the common white tendency to label such people as terrorists "crazy" or "insane," instead of attempting to understand why they do what they do (a common white tendency repeatedly displayed in the post by "Jay"). If you submit a constructive comment on that topic, I'll be glad to publish it. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-86052347511148499432010-02-24T09:21:44.395-08:002010-02-24T09:21:44.395-08:00Moi,
This is great! Excellent! I love reading y...Moi,<br /><br />This is great! Excellent! I love reading your comments here, btw. I actually read it last night and then attempted to read the comments this morning. However, I got lost in a sea of arguments.<br /><br />I really believe that the negative comments are completely unwarranted. The message from the OP is so simple, and the behavior that she depicts is extremely common. <br /><br />I was watching O'reilly maybe a month ago. He played a clip from a press conference of journalists and (whom I'm guessing to be) a homeland security official.<br /><br />Well, one of the journalist asked something on the lines of "Why are these people doing this" <br /><br />The officials initial response was that of surprise. His eyes drifted and he stumbled searching for words. In the end it was a pretty disregarding "They hate us and religious ideology is blah blah blah." <br /><br />From there, O'reilly went on to relay his analysis of the subject which was somewhat similar too the officials, but of more vitriol. "They HATE US! THEY ARE RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!"<br /><br />Now, although, I don't recall hearing the word "insane" thrown around in this particular situation, it still displays the same kind of refusal to understand, self-educate, and question. <br /><br />These kinds of actions are detrimental. They keeps people aloof from a comprehensive knowledge of what's going on in the world. To a certain extent, it also keeps are opinions polarized.Daniel W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-24697282257385395872010-02-24T09:07:35.753-08:002010-02-24T09:07:35.753-08:00RE: plastiknoise
"People do not get up one d...RE: plastiknoise<br /><br />"<i><b>People do not get up one day and decide to be terrorists. They do not suddenly decide that they are going to kill a bunch of people or become radicals</b></i>.<br /><br /><i>It is a gradual process that can only be averted if we nip it at the bud, <b>if we stop 'isms' such as racism and anti-poor and anti-brown sentiment. If we stop making people feel like they have nowhere else to turn but violence, by LISTENING to them and understanding their frustrations, and by treating them as simply human,</b> this is the only way you stop the process that leads to the 'crazy'</i>."<br /><br /><b>THANK YOU.</b><br /><br /><i>Ladies and gentlemen, Moi has now left the building.</i>Alliyah Gallowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11043902720307040762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-29025589253751379572010-02-24T08:38:45.310-08:002010-02-24T08:38:45.310-08:00@the science girl,
exactly.
The point of the OP i...@the science girl,<br />exactly.<br /><br />The point of the OP is to understand, not condone.plastiknoisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10462183018399794429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-69167286487700275342010-02-24T08:21:29.599-08:002010-02-24T08:21:29.599-08:00@attack_laurel re: 'This is foolish and it is ...@attack_laurel re: 'This is foolish and it is an extraordinary mark of privilege to be able to dismiss all non-conformist behaviour as "crazy" simply because the ideology behind their acts makes us uncomfortable.'<br /><br />Agreed. Maybe Jay's reddening face was a sign that at some level he knew that his insistence on the label "insane" was a defense of his privilege, and maybe he was peripherally aware that to open up that crack in the wall would challenge his integrity in a way he wasn't prepared to face. Maybe. I say that because if he were totally clueless, he would probably not be disturbed at all by what Moi and Tim were saying.blogloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465639610604161309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-73977644769434512882010-02-24T08:12:14.264-08:002010-02-24T08:12:14.264-08:00I appreciate this post, both for its main points a...I appreciate this post, both for its main points and for the way the dialogue displays other common white tendencies (e.g. Jay learning more from Tim's input than Moi's).<br /><br />I always detest when people describe the actions of terrorists (or rapists or abusers) as insane or as monstrous. I think that this diminishes our ability to understand the factors that contribute to their behavior and therefore, potential solutions. Yet, whenever I make this point, I am accused of making excuses for the perpetrators (as Moi was here). To attempt to understand or gain insight into one's actions is not to excuse them. Sure, it's a lot easier to put people in a box and to say that they're not "regular people," but in doing so we do ourselves a disservice. To use facepalm's Hitler example, there is a lot of scholarly writing on how Germans era WWII were just ordinary men who, given the right political, cultural, and economic pressures, colluded to do horrible things. We give a lot of lip service to the idea of "never again" with regard to genocide, but if we reduce the actions of the Nazis and their many active and passive supporters to insanity, we have given up any real opportunity to understand and therefore prevent genocide.<br /><br />Another example I gave was rape. So many times, I have heard rapists described as monsters, with little thought given to how our rape culture and rampant misogyny affects the value that women are given in our society and how this contributes to rape and assault (not to mention cycles of abuse).<br /><br />So, yeah, to me it is obvious that Western (including U.S.) policies of imperialism contribute to a lot of anger against us, thereby inflaming violence. I do agree that anti-Semitism plays a large role in motivations behind many acts of terror, but that neither directly contradicts Moi's point, nor is it at the center of this discussion. Is there a reason why we cannot talk about American/western/white actions that contribute to terrorism without deflecting the conversation to the anti-Semitism of some arabic people or nations? This blog is not Stuff Arabs Do, right?nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-90853256063245847352010-02-24T04:44:56.263-08:002010-02-24T04:44:56.263-08:00I want to scream a little reading these comments. ...I want to scream a little reading these comments. "Insane" and "crazy" are avoidance words - "I refuse to consider the deeper social implications of what this person has done, so I'll call them crazy".<br /><br />None of these terrorists are mentally ill, and it's a vicious slander against the mentally ill to immediately equate violence with insanity. It's also dangerous, in that tidying all terrorist acts away under "crazy" means that the conditions which lead to the acts will never be changed, and will engender more terrorist acts. By saying "they were crazy", we are saying that these acts happen in a vacuum, and there is nothing we can do to stop them, so *shrug* crazies - amirite?<br /><br />This is foolish and it is an extraordinary mark of privilege to be able to dismiss all non-conformist behaviour as "crazy" simply because the ideology behind their acts makes us uncomfortable.attack_laurelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-55246938003384194692010-02-23T22:33:34.795-08:002010-02-23T22:33:34.795-08:00@NancyP: You're spot-on, especially about abor...@NancyP: You're spot-on, especially about abortion. Many prominent anti-abortion organizations are actually just fundraising arms for other conservative causes. To tie this back into the topic, what good would it do to just write them off as "insane"? It's much better to try to understand the motives both of the people organizing such activity and of the people who get recruited into it.<br /><br />One thing about this whole topic that got me thinking is whether the labelling as "insane" is all that relevant, or whether the disinterest in understanding is already 90% of the problem. It reminds me of a conversation I had not too long ago with my grandparents about evolution, where their rationale for denying evolution was their inability (in the framework of their present knowledge) to conceive how complex phenomena can arise from simple chemical/biological processes. The fact that plenty of people DO understand a huge part of the topic (and have spent entire lifetimes pursuing it) was irrelevant. I know it's a bit off-topic but I think it's connected to the same white (or human?) tendency to refuse to understand the knowledge or perspective of those seen as "other".richenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-20781157597434170952010-02-23T22:08:04.387-08:002010-02-23T22:08:04.387-08:00@NancyP,
I totally understand your sentiment but t...@NancyP,<br />I totally understand your sentiment but the people of Arab and Persian nations feel as if the West has totally encroached on their territory and violated their brotherhood by placing Israel smack dab where it isn't wanted. So I think if Arab/ME politicians had the choice, they would def. remove Israel or do something concrete about Palestine.<br /><br />I think if right wingers could, they would turn this nation back to the land of jim crow yester-year they so eagerly yearn for. <br /><br />As far as this post goes, I understand what some people are trying to say in the 'insanity' part. I was in a class discussing political theory in relation to nuclear weapons and nuclear war, and I could not believe that we live in a world where academics devote their time to figuring out whether or not we are going to freaking blow each other up.<br /><br />We just should not live in a world where we have racism, nuclear weapons, or large populations so marginalized they fester in their anguish and frustration until that festering turns into violence.<br /><br />You kinda have to be a little bit 'crazy,' to smash into a building with an airplane. Crazy in the sense that this is not an action that a rational human being would most often employ.<br /><br />But we are missing the point. I believe that the OP is saying, we live in a world where we corner people like f-ing dogs and they believe that violence and extremism will help overturn their oppression, will help lift up their people out of poverty. It is an acculturation-type process.<br /><br />So yeah, I def. think that crazy terrorists actually think suicide bombing and all this violence will help make their demands heard. But I don't respect these people or think that they are justified in anyway, because they use the same tactics of coercion and aggression that they are rebelling against.<br /><br />What I think we should take from this post is that there is a certain process that leads to a radical mentality. I think Stack was crazy, though. Like clinically off his rocker. <br /><br />Ok the best example I can think of is from my homeland of Pakistan.<br /><br />In Pakistan, it's not like people in the big cities are terrorists or radicals. It's the poorer people in the Northern mountain regions, the federally un-incorporated provinces, FATA, places like that, that have a lot of radicalism.<br /><br />Places like this are breeding grounds for terror cells because<br /><br />1. these people are often ignored by the government (appalachia).<br />2. terrorists come in and want to settle down in this area, and the people, whose lives are crippled with poverty and whose children do not get an education because the govt refuses to pay for dirt poor kids to go to school, welcome terrorists with open arms because they do not see any other way out of their circumstances.<br /><br />I think of the black civil rights leaders who were peaceful, but also of those who felt that violent tactics or aggression was the only way to be heard.<br /><br />People do not get up one day and decide to be terrorists. They do not suddenly decide that they are going to kill a bunch of people or become radicals.<br /><br />It is a gradual process that can only be averted if we nip it at the bud, if we stop 'isms' such as racism and anti-poor and anti-brown sentiment. If we stop making people feel like they have nowhere else to turn but violence, by LISTENING to them and understanding their frustrations, and by treating them as simply human, this is the only way you stop the process that leads to the 'crazy'.plastiknoisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10462183018399794429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71440553651288931982010-02-23T21:39:24.593-08:002010-02-23T21:39:24.593-08:00Disagreeing is not the same thing as refusing to u...Disagreeing is not the same thing as refusing to understand. <br /><br />Stack and the 9/11 terrorists were motivated by hatred/revenge and perhaps by megalomanic fantasy (hero saving the world). These people were not "insane" by conventional legal definitions. <br /><br />A large percentage of Muslim countries have political traditions of using anti-Semitism as a means of distracting the populace from unpopular policies, inept governance, corruption, suppression of internal dissent, and other internal issues. This strategy to maintain power works well, particularly when coupled with active suppression of dissent. <br /><br />This is no different in principle from whipping up homophobia in the USA (2004, 2006, 2008 elections), Jamaica, Uganda (the current poster child), Kenya, etc. The average voter can be distracted very easily by playing on fears and emotions.<br /><br />I am convinced that many Muslim politicians would like to avoid doing anything concrete for the Palestinians living at this moment. The Palestinians serve them better as a perpetual grievance than a viable people.<br /><br />By the same token, I have no doubt that the leading Republican Party strategists don't want to achieve the party platform of re-criminalization of abortion because legal abortion has been such a useful recruiting issue for the rank and file.<br /><br />Have people mentioned the generally counterproductive nature of terrorism, with regards to improving the situation of a whole people (as opposed to a political faction)?NancyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-36426025022020317762010-02-23T20:21:41.880-08:002010-02-23T20:21:41.880-08:00I wrote something, then re-read what Irishup wrote...I wrote something, then re-read what Irishup wrote and realized that Irishup already said everything I had to say, only better. I'll only add that I think most of us have at least some things about which we have a Jay-like reaction if pushed: I don't want to understand because if I did understand I wouldn't be able to stay so centered on my own point of view. <br /><br />Attributing things to "insanity" is maybe a recent turn for people who don't have a religion that lets them call it "pure evil" or "the devil's work". Or so I'm thinking. It just seems bizarre to me. (Or I could go there and say "It just seems insane to me to call something insane when you don't understand it.")olderwomanhttp://sociologicalconfessions.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-27015382277712873872010-02-23T20:06:57.476-08:002010-02-23T20:06:57.476-08:00@ i hurt
wasn't there already a post on this b...@ i hurt<br /><i>wasn't there already a post on this blog about the white tendency to diagnose mental illness without any qualification?</i><br /><br />Yes. But labeling someone insane actually goes one step further in its absurdity. "Insane" is not a legitimate mental illness. It's a legal term which encompasses any mental condition which could leave a person unable to understand his or her own actions and thus unfit to stand trial and be held accountable. In the post about WP who label other whites with a specific mental illness, those WP have narrowed the field down and picked one which they feel like they understand. The "he's insane" comment is its lazy half-sibling. Before, a WP had to at least know what mental illness s/he was talking about. With "he's insane" anyone can do the labeling and they can never be wrong.<br /><br /><i>anyone bother to define "terrorism" or "terrorist"? or to speak of specific acts and not just talk about "terrorists" as though every terrorist act is committed by the same monolithic group in the same context?</i><br /><br />Yup, it's all there. And it's on the previous post about Stack himself - and in the link Moi has provided to her blog.<br /><br />@ sez me<br /><br /><i>I've read this blog for a while to shake up my 'privileged' mainstream viewpoint</i><br /><br />The word <i>privileged</i> in quotes, huh? Right.<br /><br /><i>but the recent guest blogging is ridiculous. facepalm makes sense; moi does not and resorts to name calling at the drop of a hat.</i><br /><br />The name-calling really throws ya doesn't it... so insulting to be called a name - we'd better end this crazy guest blogging now! I guess it's ok to hop on here, choose an anonymous name and be completely condescending without actually having to own your words. Let's not call foul on that.<br />-------<br /><br />Frankly, what's actually insulting is the way WAY too many people are asking questions which Moi has taken the time to answer in GREAT DETAIL. If you disagree after that, you disagree. Take your ball and go home already. A handful of you aren't reading the damned answers and then want to say something's not making sense. You don't want it to make sense, you want someone to pat your back and tell you you're right.Victoriahttp://vintagelux.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-54122426343907634302010-02-23T20:03:35.006-08:002010-02-23T20:03:35.006-08:00I don't think facepalm & moi's views a...I don't think facepalm & moi's views are irreconcilable/contradictory, I think they compliment each other, but more on that later when I have time.<br /><br />For now - @ihurt - I am not white. I specifically said that I did not mean that terrorists are mentally ill. I used the word 'insane' to mean something like: selfishly murdering people but using 'defending the oppressed' as a pretext, and then basking in the glory of it afterward. But please note that I've realized that perhaps the word 'insane' is not appropriate since it seems to have very different meanings for different people. (For me, I never use it to mean 'mental illness'.) Also note that I specifically have the Bali bombers in mind, and the reason why they are relevant to the discussion is because their leaders have been said to be linked to Al Qaeda which is linked to 9/11.<br /><br />Re: "looking in their eyes" - You've obviously never watched a footage of the Bali bombers while they were in prison (often while being interviewed), or if you have, your unfamiliarity with Indonesia & Indonesians may have meant you overlooked the nuance of what was happening. (e.g. During the social unrest and rioting of 1998 in Indonesia, the CNN reporter couldn't seem to tell the difference between vigilantes roaming the streets and student demonstrators as she (a poc) painted them all with the same paintbrush. But those familiar with Indonesia can usually tell with one quick glance.)fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-46164458705016798712010-02-23T19:03:02.829-08:002010-02-23T19:03:02.829-08:00WV has a GDP per capita of $31K vs the US average ...WV has a GDP per capita of $31K vs the US average of $39K. Rwanda is at $800. WV is less well off than most of the US, but it in no way shape or form similar to a 3rd world country wealth-wise. The opportunity that a typical WV kid has if s/he studies in school or learns some trade is worlds beyond what people in 3rd world countries have.<br /><br />What responsibility do we as Americans bear towards Rwanda? What did the much closer countries in Africa do? Anything substantive other than throw up there hands and half-heartedly deal with the refugee crisis forced on them? No. Ignoring Rwanda and similar situations is a all-races issue, not a 'white people' issue.<br /><br />I've read this blog for a while to shake up my 'privileged' mainstream viewpoint, but the recent guest blogging is ridiculous. facepalm makes sense; moi does not and resorts to name calling at the drop of a hat.sez menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-48953998829800451052010-02-23T19:02:11.995-08:002010-02-23T19:02:11.995-08:00wasn't there already a post on this blog about...wasn't there already a post on this blog about the white tendency to diagnose mental illness without any qualification? how can anyone determine whether a terrorist is insane from "looking in their eyes"? seriously?<br /><br />also, if you're going to argue that committing an act of violence qualifies a person as insane, then technically any person who has ever participated in a military conflict would fit that definition.<br /><br />this whole stream is just a set of generalizations and counter-generalizations, not real points. anyone bother to define "terrorism" or "terrorist"? or to speak of specific acts and not just talk about "terrorists" as though every terrorist act is committed by the same monolithic group in the same context? wtf?<br /><br />it's incredibly problematic to try to paint modern terrorism as a reiteration of a historical trend dating back to the Crusades. The political histories of Middle Eastern countries are far more complex than "everything was cool until the Crusades, and then the rest was imperialism." If you've ever studied Near Eastern history you would know that the Crusades were not considered nearly as significant to the region as the later Mongol conquests. This post and this whole thread is so eurocentric it hurts.i hurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-19065629838035906582010-02-23T17:29:57.336-08:002010-02-23T17:29:57.336-08:00@ IrishUp
This really caught me: "That is be...@ IrishUp<br /><br />This really caught me: "That is being resistant to the idea that I CAN empathize; its rooted in the fact that I have so thoroughly OTHERED whomever the topic is, that I am unwilling to entertain the idea that there are any shared experience through which to experience empathy."<br /><br />Thank you for this; it lends a lot of insight into Jay for me. 'Cause that night, I kept wondering why he wasn't speaking much except to shake his head and insist terrorists would have to be "insane". He wasn't offering any other thoughts. Even when we asked him to guess or theorize or draw on some history, he just stuck with "insane", like a friggin' broken record (embarassment for his lack of knowledge? or was it me - was I not supposed to "know" anything or was I just not supposed to have this particular type of conversation with him? was <i>I</i> making him uncomfortable? did not he not like hearing this come from a POC?)<br /><br />It was honestly quite annoying. So if people on here think, "But that doesn't sound like a <i>real</i> conversation," then imagine actually sitting across from this person who's face is burning red (anger? shame? discomfort?) and who's not fully verbalizing why he won't even <i>try</i> to understand an alternate POV.Alliyah Gallowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11043902720307040762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57147345837256057592010-02-23T16:40:32.551-08:002010-02-23T16:40:32.551-08:00@ Irishup:
I'm actually pretty sure that Mari...@ Irishup:<br /><br />I'm actually pretty sure that Marissa is attempting to indict ME for MY lack of empathy, and maybe Jay as well -- but I don't think she is attempting to insinuate, a la zek and lurker, that everyone in this thread ought to be more empathetic all around. <br /><br />While it is understandable that many of you would be chagrined that I managed to open the thread with an epic Hitler comparison (a comparison I don't back down from, btw, as it actually has some instructive implications with respect to several posts), I'm curious why you'd characterize zek's posts in the same vein. To me they appear thoughtful and relevant, if occasionally, arguably careless w/regard to the use of the word "insane." <br /><br />And if you DO want to explain trolling, "deliberate derailing," etc., a lack of empathy has everything to do with it. Think about it.facepalmhttp://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp145/angiec211/Graphics/facepalm_implied_super.jpgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-58638337783906730912010-02-23T15:56:51.689-08:002010-02-23T15:56:51.689-08:00@Marissa;
I can't see how a lack of empathy is...@Marissa;<br />I can't see how a lack of empathy is sufficient to explain the experience Moi posted about, nor does it explain the deliberate derailing that facepalm & zek have responded with.<br /><br />Moi's post details how, despite having parallels clearly drawn, despite having both cultural and historical context provided, despite telling the same narrative with different particulars from several different angles, her friend Jay kept using a "insane" to explain behavior that - however horrible - cannot be correctly described as insane. Further, it took both an older WM, and a domestic (white) example to make any inroads on Jay's original position. But in the end, or at least where Moi's story leaves us, Jay is returning to the default "not like me" position.<br /><br />If I understand the whys and hows of somebody’s life that resulted in a particular event, and I think “I cannot relate to that” – that’s a failure to empathize. If you start telling me the why’s and how’s, and in my head I’m going “Yeeeaaah, no; they those people them that other place has nothing whatsoever to do with me may as well be Jupiter – zzzzz --- oh look, LA just scored!”, well that is beyond a mere failure to empathize. That is being resistant to the idea that I CAN empathize; its rooted in the fact that I have so thoroughly OTHERED whomever the topic is, that I am unwilling to entertain the idea that there are any shared experience through which to experience empathy.Irishupnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-74157085679229134692010-02-23T15:53:16.584-08:002010-02-23T15:53:16.584-08:00@ Moi:
Throughout history, revolutions have come ...@ Moi:<br /><br /><i>Throughout history, revolutions have come about because privileged, educated students united with peasants against perceived tyranny.</i><br />Is it your contention that this is the purpose or effect of Al Qaeda's terrorism?<br /><br /><br /><i>(nice name change)</i><br />What significance, exactly, do you attach to my going by "...facepalm..." in my second post?<br /><br /><br /><i>You insist upon linking Arabs with Rwanda, though no one else did.</i><br />Actually, I expressed incredulity and contempt at the proposition that the two could be linked.<br /><br /><br /><i>I'm glad you brought up my African upbringing</i><br />No, you brought up your African upbringing. In particular, you stated:<br /><br /><i>For the brief period I lived in Cameroon, I had nannies. I went to a private school. My family is prominent in our home province. So while I too could never see myself flying a plane into a building, I could see why my parents or grandparents -- who were born and raised under colonial rule -- would.</i><br /><br />Anyways, in response, I merely pointed out that the people who flew airplanes into buildings on 9/11 and the people who orchestrated those attacks also came from prominent families and enjoyed many of the material advantages you describe. Yet, they fly planes into buildings and you don't. I would venture this has something to do with a combination, on their part, of religious and political zeal. What say you?<br /><br /><br /><i>You just told me about what community prominence means my in my tribe.</i><br />Please point out where/how I did this. Direct quote(s) would be ideal.<br /><br /><br />Finally -- why is it immature or audacious to address one distinct analytical subpart of your post without commenting on the others? I personally declined to comment on your discussion of Appalachia because I did not find any portion of it to be particularly incisive or particularly problematic.<br /><br />And, @ everyone who has expressed such aggressive disdain for the proposition that anti-semitism motivates Al Qaeda, I guess I'd just curiously ask why, in a discussion <i>on an anti-racist blog</i> concerning the motives of a group whose founding manifesto was entitled "Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders," the "Jews" part ought to be so facilely disregarded? After all, the "crusaders" aspect got plenty of ink. If we're concerned with examining the implications of these events vis-a-vis racial/ethnic bias, animus and inequity, then this doesn't seem quite right.extreme facepalmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-17379585844562212982010-02-23T15:41:26.326-08:002010-02-23T15:41:26.326-08:00@ Zek
"Maybe it's not your job, but if ...@ Zek<br /><br /><br />"Maybe it's not your job, but if you're going to take the time to lecture someone, then maybe you should take the time to understand them also. Jay is a person, not a dialectical tool, and to judge him for being human -- just as human as any victim of neo-colonialism -- is as intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant as any "typical Westerner['s]... uninformed opinion.""<br /><br /><br />Co-sign.lurkielurkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33209968842750752772010-02-23T15:10:05.782-08:002010-02-23T15:10:05.782-08:00@ Yeshtatic
That's right. I knew I missed a ...@ Yeshtatic<br /><br />That's right. I knew I missed a detail in there somewhere. I find it amusing they were that eager to "switch sides", so to speak.Alliyah Gallowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11043902720307040762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-71761332521217759002010-02-23T14:41:31.248-08:002010-02-23T14:41:31.248-08:00What's evident in this thread is an extreme la...What's evident in this thread is an extreme lack of empathy. A lot of understanding race is understanding the importance of differences. But here I think there is a failure to appreciate similarities. If you can't imagine why someone would do something, imagine what it would take for you to do that. On a very basic level, we're all the same: we all want to self-determine, we all want respect. Just like you don't do things or feel things for no good reason, the same can be said for everybody else. When you think someone different is crazy, it's a failure to empathize.Marissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01452790690995074805noreply@blogger.com