tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post1814420902014862960..comments2024-03-06T08:29:13.333-08:00Comments on stuff white people do: dismiss non-white explanations of racism as irrationalmacon dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comBlogger117125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-4838725047161763202010-03-08T20:11:33.425-08:002010-03-08T20:11:33.425-08:00This is beyond sad and pathetic. In my opinion she...This is beyond sad and pathetic. In my opinion she wasn't a true friend of yours because she was more concerned about her feelings as opposed to your own, and I think that's the main reason why whites derail the discussion of racism. It's all about not hurting their feelings as oppose to listening to the facts, truths and realities and healing the pain caused by racism. They don't want to listen to the truth because they will take it personally and feel bad. So, they not only want to make you feel like you're 'delusional' but feel less than a human for even bringing it up.Blaque Inkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18044177158819953392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-57327860995617695222010-02-19T20:37:17.694-08:002010-02-19T20:37:17.694-08:00i have certainly had people say that i was crazy a...i have certainly had people say that i was crazy and/or totally paranoid because i would refer to coworkers' and friends' (now former friends') comments as racist or sexist. no-one has been QUITE so blatant as to give me a questionnaire, but it's commonly known that i am nuts and think everyone is racist and sexist. strangely, it has not shut me up. and it won't. people don't like it, they can go eff themselves. conversely, i DO want people to tell me that i am being racist if i am. now, i might go away and think about it, but i will likely come back and say yeah, i wasn't thinking about what i said, i should never have thought it, less said it. it's harder now, i don't interact with people daily-except online. i have been unemployed for months, and almost never go out. i appreciate this blog and being able to talk to people here. i missed having some intelligent (and not so) discussions. as far as racism in australia, i have never been there, so i can't really speak to it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124535657213616461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-67141163944026606592010-01-11T09:34:14.993-08:002010-01-11T09:34:14.993-08:00Uh, I can’t believe I actually have to explain thi...Uh, I can’t believe I actually have to explain this. But I suppose from a ‘rational’ or intellectual analysis point of view Robin’s question might seem valid (I think? Sort of?). <br /><br />Let’s look at my friend’s fallacious logic: “She doesn’t have any Aboriginal friends, therefore she is racist against Aboriginals. She thinks racism is widespread in Australia, so she needs to go see a therapist (even if we make her cry in the process of telling her this). If we are not racist against Aboriginal people, then we must be interested in their ritual dance.” On top of this, she does not understand what essentializing Aboriginal culture or packaging it for tourists mean in terms of racism. <br /><br />This logic, to me at least, indicates that my friend is clueless when it comes to any understanding of how racism works. And not well versed in how intercultural understanding works either. Therefore, if she decides to misinterpret my actions…well, why wouldn’t she? Of course she would misinterpret my actions. <br /><br />As for my understanding of racism. Granted I may have misinterpreted some of my experiences, but chances are I’ve correctly interpreted most of my experiences. I am not basing my understanding on one or two incidents. It’s based on years of interacting with Australians. I go to dimsum and a friend makes fun of the waiter’s accent right in front of him. (And stupid me, I was too shocked to say anything.) Or I go to a Christmas party and a lady keeps asking me about that place where I ‘came from’, I find it tiring answering her essentialist questions, but try to be polite until she says, ‘Oh, you know what, I’m not actually interested in your country. I just didn’t know what to talk about.’ That’s when I realized why I found it tiring answering her questions – because she didn’t care and was just being ignorant. Incidents like that basically confirmed to me that if I do feel that someone is being ignorant/racist, chances are I’m picking up the right vibe. Etc. etc. etc. Can you tell when someone speaks in a patronizing tone to you? I think most of us can. Can you tell when a man is being sexist? I think we most of the time we can. Same goes for racism.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-80615238262080001202010-01-11T07:02:01.512-08:002010-01-11T07:02:01.512-08:00>> "What is the distinguishing differen...>> "What is the distinguishing difference?"<br /><br />By "appearing racist" I assume you mean "It seems racist but [white person] didn't <i>mean</i> to be racist." <br /><br />"Appearing" racist and being racist are the same thing. It's about the outcome. Not the intention. It's about the POC's feelings.<br /><br />Read this post, especially the last line of the quote:<br /><a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/04/explain-away.html" rel="nofollow">swpd: explain away racist incidents</a><br />(Macon, this might merit a repost and expansion now that you have lots of commenters)Willownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-33671750702264777692010-01-11T01:18:57.495-08:002010-01-11T01:18:57.495-08:00"But obviously, instead of asking me why I di..."But obviously, instead of asking me why I didn’t want to watch it, my friend just assumed that she knew what was going on inside my head, and that I didn’t want to watch it because I was prejudiced towards Aboriginal Australians."<br /><br />But... but... isn't this an example of a behavior that was perceived as being motivated by racism, but was actually not? I admit I don't know what the specific incidents were that your friend dismissed as being because of sexism, classism, a bad day, or other non-racist reasons, but doesn't her misinterpretation of your own action imply the possibility that some of the "racist" attacks you experienced were not, in fact, caused by racism? Again, I don't know the full story, so don't take this as a tacit rejection of your experiences. I'd just like to know a bit more about the distinction between a racist action and an action that might simply appear racist. Is the difference that you saw the racist behavior directed at yourself, whereas your friend simply assumed something about your feelings toward other people? What is the distinguishing difference?Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-77089612567684177972010-01-10T07:44:25.871-08:002010-01-10T07:44:25.871-08:00Since you seem to want us to do homework on your b...<i>Since you seem to want us to do homework on your behalf, here's something for you to do: find me an example where a white person disagreed an a point about race and was not racist. Then we'll talk.</i><br /><br />What you talking about? You know it's not racist if they don't <i>mean</i> to offend people.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-86204694898970772112010-01-10T02:31:40.185-08:002010-01-10T02:31:40.185-08:00Sorry if this conversation's over, but I felt ...Sorry if this conversation's over, but I felt compelled to add my own two cents.<br /><br />Thaddeus said, <i>show me a single example where a white person has disagreed about a point regarding race and has not been declared a racist.<br /><br />Frankly, if you're white, the smartest thing you can do is NOT discuss race at all.</i><br /><br />Did you read bloglogger's comment <a href="http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/dismiss-non-white-explanations-of.html?showComment=1262627944160#c7672506512212205269" rel="nofollow">here</a> (1/4/10, 9:59)? Because it's a particularly concise and relevant answer to your complaining.<br /><br />Since you seem to want us to do homework on <i>your</i> behalf, here's something for <i>you</i> to do: find <i>me</i> an example where a white person disagreed an a point about race and <i>was not racist</i>. Then we'll talk.<br /><br />White people enjoy privileges that people of color do not in every aspect of their lives. Discussion of racism ought to be one situation to which those privileges (like being given the benefit of the doubt over and over and <i>over</i> again) do not apply.Zarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14297967580799128420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-74394612419057467052010-01-09T17:02:53.470-08:002010-01-09T17:02:53.470-08:00It always intresting how a person not labeled at c...It always intresting how a person not labeled at colored views the world..Racism is alive and kickin it's demonstrated differently. Alot of people will racsim is a thing of the past. thats because they are not the ones racism is used againt.. it's sad ur friend doesnt even conisder opinion and to suggest you need a thearpist..u should have laughed as you walked our of her lifenic1https://www.blogger.com/profile/05818541613782655297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-43884044069475942672010-01-07T13:55:27.476-08:002010-01-07T13:55:27.476-08:00OK, but can you show me one example - here on this...<i>OK, but can you show me one example - here on this blog or anywhere accessible - where such a contradiction has occured and the white person in question wasn't immediately called a racist?</i><br />ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Your entitlement is running amok! You are NOT ready for this conversation!<br /><br />No, we will not take the time out of our day to find an example to disprove an argument that has nothing to do with the topic!<br /><br /><b><i>WE ARE NOT YOUR GOOGLE!</i></b>Roxiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10989862745571420807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-89857350757604920302010-01-07T10:47:08.271-08:002010-01-07T10:47:08.271-08:00[Ana Thaddeus, I'm rejecting yet another comme...[Ana Thaddeus, I'm rejecting yet another comment of yours because it veers off-topic again. All I can say is, if you want to participate effectively here, <a href="http://www.derailingfordummies.com/" rel="nofollow">go read this</a>, and if you already have, read it again more carefully. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-39469050191482083522010-01-07T10:31:13.291-08:002010-01-07T10:31:13.291-08:00Fromthetropics sez:
The answer though is of cour...Fromthetropics sez: <br /><br /><em>The answer though is of course. But probably only if you’re not doing it because you’re being defensive, or ‘here let me teach you’ way where you perceive yourself to be on a higher moral ground, or because you’re in denial about systemic racism. But this probably rarely happens.</em><br /><br />OK, but can you show me one example - here on this blog or anywhere accessible - where such a contradiction has occured and the white person in question wasn't immediately called a racist?<br /><br /><em>Okay, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're actually earnest with your question. In that case, well, the above statement somehow sounds condescending. It seems to suggest that I was throwing a little tantrum and the adult listener needs to just let me be and then move one. </em><br /><br />Sure it's condescending. I'm not PRESCRIBING such behavior, however, I am DESCRIBING it. For this is precisely the way most Brazilians deal with the topic of race, or any topic which they feel is being discussed with too much fervor.<br /><br />So the point I'm making is you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to discuss this topic with a white person and not have them eventually say something that contradicts you and thus pisses you off. The general white response to this is getting to be "OK..." and a switch of topic.<br /><br /><em>But yes, I think it’s possible to not be racist on the particular issue at hand (particularly if it is not about a personal experience) and disagree at the same time IF you are earnest about the discussion and have ears to hear what the other person is trying to convey. Listen first, then hear, then disagree. But in my opinion, this rarely happens. Usually people just disagree before they hear. </em><br /><br />No doubt. But that happens all across the board. Speaking as a white person involved in the study of race who often encounters "bombarding aggressiveness" such as you describe.<br /><br /><em>Let me guess, you still don't feel as though your question has been answered, do you?<br /></em><br /><br />Well, as much as I enjoy it when other folks use their ESP on me, I think I must say that the question has been answered, yes, but not very reflexively. I might change that viewpoint if you can show me a single example where a white person has disagreed about a point regarding race and has not been declared a racist. <br /><br />Frankly, if you're white, the smartest thing you can do is NOT discuss race at all. Pretty much anything you can say except "uh huh" is going to be misread by someone. I happen to be a very stupid white person.Thaddeus Gregory Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09359423010378429288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-32481785260605329372010-01-07T09:43:31.556-08:002010-01-07T09:43:31.556-08:00Thaddeus,
This blog is not about socioeconomic st...Thaddeus,<br /><br />This blog is not about socioeconomic status among races (e.g. discussion of the treatment of "white trash" individuals) or nationalism or cross-cultural communication or any universal abstract treatise on ignorance. It's about the ways of whiteness, and how that affects white people themselves and POC, and how typical/common white behaviors reinforce white supremacy and oppression of people of color. Don't be surprised if you are ignored or accused of derailing if you consistently drift away from that central topic.<br /><br />As to this, <i>"if you want discussion on this thing, you need to expect that people are going to say things you don't agree with and if you blow up at them, they aren't going to change their position or think about the topic ever again."</i><br /><br />Please read this: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#angrynonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-1963732965884266422010-01-07T09:38:28.729-08:002010-01-07T09:38:28.729-08:00I already answered your question (see above): The ...I already answered your question (see above): <i>The answer though is of course. But probably only if you’re not doing it because you’re being defensive, or ‘here let me teach you’ way where you perceive yourself to be on a higher moral ground, or because you’re in denial about systemic racism. But this probably rarely happens.</i><br /><br />And it did not happen that night or the next day. She was not earnestly trying to engage in a discussion or trying to disagree with me while NOT being racist or disrespectful. <br /><br /><i>Because it seems to me that the only thing your friend could have done in order to not piss you off is nod their head, say "uh huh" and change the topic.</i><br /><br />Okay, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're actually earnest with your question. In that case, well, the above statement somehow sounds condescending. It seems to suggest that I was throwing a little tantrum and the adult listener needs to just let me be and then move one. And I’m still not convinced that you’ve read my post properly, or perhaps I didn’t use enough descriptive words to help the reader understand what was going on (I thought I had). <br /><br />“She and her white friend were offended…” – i.e. they were in denial of systemic racism. That was their premise – that racism is limited to the select few idiots. In this particular incident, they were the ones who got offended FIRST. Initially I thought we were gonna have a ‘discussion’. But AFTER they got offended, they went into defensive mode and so it was no longer a calm rational ‘discussion’.<br /><br />“she <i>bombarded</i> me with questions…” – bombarded. I repeat – bombarded. And by that I actually do mean, ‘bombarded’ – One question after another, most of the time before I could finish my sentence. And from where I was sitting, it looked like she was having fun with it, like it was a game. But we were talking about things I find painful. That to me suggests that she was not earnestly interested in a discussion. <br /><br />As for the suggestion that I’m racist towards Aboriginal Australians because I don’t have any friends with that background – It is a <b>completely illogical</b> suggestion. I mean, c’mon. To me this shows that she was being defensive and was trying to go to great lengths to prove me wrong <i>out of her defensiveness</i>. <br /><br />“whenever I’d try to explain things, she would never let me finish. She’d just keep cutting me off.” I repeat – She would not let me finish my sentences. It was not an earnest discussion. <br /><br />And she pulled out a damn psychological questionnaire to prove that I had psychological issues because I thought racism was systemic. So, no, as far as I’m concerned, she was not earnestly trying to have a discussion about racism. <br /><br />And this is why I find that statement you made offensive, because it still doesn’t sound like you’ve actually read the post or understood what happened. <br /><br />As for your question, fair enough. First of all, I think we need to all work on the presumption that we are all prejudiced one way or another. But yes, I think it’s possible to not be racist on the <b>particular</b> issue at hand (particularly if it is not about a personal experience) and disagree at the same time IF you are earnest about the discussion and have ears to hear what the other person is trying to convey. Listen first, then hear, then disagree. But in my opinion, this rarely happens. Usually people just disagree before they hear. <br /><br />Let me guess, you still don't feel as though your question has been answered, do you?fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-52944757084519991192010-01-07T08:22:40.460-08:002010-01-07T08:22:40.460-08:00From the tropics, the "whitey male belief&quo...From the tropics, the "whitey male belief" comment was not properly directed to you, but to Macon. I agree that I should have been clearer on this point and ask your pardon for the confusing way in which it got placed. From my original reading - and rereading - of the post, I assumed that Macon was writing it. I now see that this is not the case. I did indeed read the post very carefully and am at a loss why I didn't see the intro bit that it was a guest post from you. Probably, the fact that I read and wrote while on the bus following 12 hours of teaching and writing in a completely different language had something to do with it. In any case, I apologize for the presumption.<br /><br />Furthermore, I probably reacted more strongly than I should have because of some recent debates I've been involved in here in Brazil, where it's recently become fashionable for lily white, upper-class folks of German descent to "teach" the rest of the country's white population about what "racism is really about"their racism. <br /><br />These kids (most of them are very sincere college students in their late teens and early 20s) are really quite amazing and not in a positive sense. Ana and I ran into a passle of them at a recent event in Argentina where they spent an hour claiming that racial quotas for higher education in Brazil were "an obvious necessity" and that it was "very clear who is black and who isn't in this country and only white racists would say otherwise". Then, over beers after the conference, two of the (very white and middle class) leaders of this group admitted that they themselves had unsuccessfully claim afrodescendent status on their college entrance forms. <br /><br />In other words, my tolerance for white anti-racists with flexible ethics is about as low as some folks' tolerance here for the bringing up the white trash experience in a debate on race. If I was being prejudice here, it was towards Macon, not you.<br /><br />Nevertheless, my main point remains: would there be any conceivable way in the sort of discussion which you describe where your friend could have disagreed with your opinion and NOT been a racist? Could someone in that situation possibly have a point when they bring up other factors, such as gender or personal agency?<br /><br />Because it seems to me that the only thing your friend could have done in order to not piss you off is nod their head, say "uh huh" and change the topic.<br /><br />Going on my experience here in Brazil, that's how racism generally never gets dealt with. If someone brings up race, religion or anything controversial you might disagree with, don't say anything: simply move the topic of conversation soemwhere else.<br /><br />My point is, if you want discussion on this thing, you need to expect that people are going to say things you don't agree with and if you blow up at them, they aren't going to change their position or think about the topic ever again. And there's also a possibility - slight, but there nevertheless - that maybe, just maybe, they may have a point which you haven't yet considered. <br /><br />As for the belief that this is a PoC versus white issue... I often get the same feelings of rage and anger when I hear anglos (of any color) commenting on Brazilians (again, of any color). Ignorance is unfortuntely the universe's number one element, as Frank Zappa once pointed out. However, I have found that screaming at ignorant gringos doesn't help at all.Thaddeus Gregory Blanchettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09359423010378429288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-278157862196499212010-01-07T08:12:02.818-08:002010-01-07T08:12:02.818-08:00Thaddeus, if you want to comment, please read the ...Thaddeus, if you want to comment, please read the damn post properly. The 'friend' in the post is not macon's friend. She's my friend. macon doesn't know her. Heck, I've never met macon either. I repeat, we live in different continents.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-82627111980772577382010-01-07T08:04:51.990-08:002010-01-07T08:04:51.990-08:00[Thaddeus wrote in another rejected comment, in re...[Thaddeus wrote in another rejected comment, in reference to several other new, rejected comments,<br /><br /><i>Now, I've looked over the above quite carefully Macon, and held it up against your comments policy list. You may not agree with it, but I don't think that you can, in good faith, say that it violates policy. If you feel it does, I'd like to know why, exactly.</i><br /><br />It violates the one that says "Address the topic in the post." You're making some more interesting points, but as fromthetropics just noted, they again have nothing to do with her post. ~macon]macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22507009213629782802010-01-07T07:46:48.846-08:002010-01-07T07:46:48.846-08:00I've been carefully reading through your blog ...<i>I've been carefully reading through your blog for some time now...</i><br /><br />Really? You sure? Did you read the introductory line to this particular OP? Or any of the other comments I've written? If you have, you would have noticed that I am not macon. <br /><br /><i>It seems to me that you were so self-righteous in your mighty whitey male belief that you've got it all figured out, that you button-holed your friend's comments as "derailment" without even thinking them through.</i><br /><br />"whitey male belief"? I suggest you read the OP again, every line of it. I wrote the post. I am a woman. Female. Not male. I am of Asian descent. Born in Canada, raised in different places, but did most of my schooling through the Western system, and am now based in Australia. Macon is based in Untied States of America. I have no trace of European descent in me. Hence, I am not white. My experiences and observations of (white and other) racism are based on multiple places and contexts, like quite a few of the other commenters here. <br /><br />Now that we got that straight, I suggest you reread the post with all of that in mind, especially that fact that it is written by an Asian woman who is based in a white majority society. And then rewrite your question in light of this new info. Then maybe some of us will find that it might make sense to respond.fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-14582621927598555272010-01-07T07:16:51.721-08:002010-01-07T07:16:51.721-08:00Thaddeus, you weren't "reflexively flamed...Thaddeus, you weren't "reflexively flamed"; the people here objecting to points you're trying to make are making well-reasoned arguments. They may seem reflexive, though, because they've heard your bad arguments before, probably many times.<br /><br /><i>So let me reiterate: is it possible, Macon, for a white person to disagree with a black person on racism IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM and NOT be a racist?</i><br /><br />Of course it is. Take a look at the new Comments Policy, for example -- people of any race can make break any of those rules, i.e., disagree with me. You know, for all your high-toned bloviating and book-slinging, you're incredibly full of crap.<br /><br /><i>Now I ask this because it seems to me that you want mutually contradictory things. You want white people to reflect upon race, but you don't want them bringing up any points which black people reject because that would be too hurtful.</i><br /><br />Wrong. And black people aren't a monolith. And they're not the only POC reading here.<br /><br />You know, you REALLY need to read the new Comments Policy carefully -- you've broken more of its rules in your two long-winded derailings than I care to count. In fact, that's why I'm going to delete the second one, and leave the first here so readers can see what the comments after it are referring to.macon dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07795547197817128339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-91072998780704434602010-01-07T07:00:51.242-08:002010-01-07T07:00:51.242-08:00And then they talk about Black people not knowing ...And then they talk about Black people not knowing how to read.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-45741554339139054062010-01-07T07:00:36.218-08:002010-01-07T07:00:36.218-08:00*rolls eyes at Thaddeus' comment*
And they th...*rolls eyes at Thaddeus' comment*<br /><br />And they think they're so much smarter than us.RVCBardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06481089855894764409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-75118946945928089352010-01-07T06:54:20.520-08:002010-01-07T06:54:20.520-08:00@thesciencegirl
Exactly.
I stopped reading right ...@<b>thesciencegirl</b><br />Exactly.<br /><br />I stopped reading right there.Roxiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10989862745571420807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-22114689987739338642010-01-07T06:46:57.356-08:002010-01-07T06:46:57.356-08:00"The Irish were discriminated again too!"..."The Irish were discriminated again too!" argument? Really?nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285430099883802519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-54118165214188571912010-01-07T05:08:14.070-08:002010-01-07T05:08:14.070-08:00Whoah! What to say...
First of all, I'm not u...Whoah! What to say...<br /><br />First of all, I'm not used to being reflexifvely flamed, so I'll try to keep my comments to a minimum.<br /><br />I asked a serious question, one that's pertinent to the topic posted here. It is not a troll. Given the level of predictable knee-jerking expressed by many of the posters above, if I wanted to troll, it would have been a lot easier to use something far more lulzy.<br /><br />So let me reiterate: is it possible, Macon, for a white person to disagree with a black person on racism IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM and NOT be a racist?<br /><br />Now I ask this because it seems to me that you want mutually contradictory things. You want white people to reflect upon race, but you don't want them bringing up any points which black people reject because that would be too hurtful. I mean YOU are a white guy and YOU almost went off on your friend because she was making claims you thought unwise. Imagine, then, a similar conversation between a black and a white.<br /><br />The fact of the matter is, though incredibly important, race is not the be-all and end-all of human social action. Class is a HUGE factor and one which anglo americans largely ignore, in my experience. Straight-up imperialism causes a lot of difficulties and while black americans may be black, they do indeed have blue passports and can use them to move about the world - something which Brazilians of any color, for example, can't say. Your friend brought up gender, another biggie. And when all those social factors are set aside, there's the simple question of pure human agency: some folks, to put it frankly, are simply jerks.<br /><br />So while I agree that yeah, a lot of white people use the above litany much of the time to handwave racism away, it seems to me that there are times when one simply can't say "Hey, this situation was caused by racism and racism alone."<br /><br />And because you seem to be into white self-introspection, let me run this idea by you (as a white man who's been doing this for 25 years or more):<br /><br />It is REALLY comfortable for you - a guy who's on top of the global pyramid in probably every conceivable way - to handpick your one "I'm a bad boy" characteristic (in this case racism) and attempt to make a determinist philosophy out of it. It allows you to pretty much ignore the other stuff that's going on and - in the case of the story you related here - it allows you to feel self-righteous with a white friend who, for all we know, may have been RIGHT. Or are you the only white person allowed to criticize and analyze racism?<br /><br />It seems to me that you were so self-righteous in your mighty whitey male belief that you've got it all figured out, that you button-holed your friend's comments as "derailment" without even thinking them through. Maybe she COULD have been right: maybe more sexism than racism was involved in whatever you were talking about. Maybe, in fact, it was a case of what we social scientists call intersectionality: two or three mega-phenomena like racism or sexism working together in a way that doesn't simply sum or scale up. Did these possibilities ever occur to you, I wonder, or do you believe that your capacity to come up with and/or assimilate buzz words regarding racist syndromes places you beyond the need to actually analyze immediate interactions anymore?<br /><br />And so I ask again, Macon, is there ANY WAY someone can disagree with a "person of color" (or a white man who believes he is a faithful supporter of same) regarding race and NOT be called a racist?<br /><br />Because I've been carefully reading through your blog for some time now and I can't find one single instance of this occurring, anywhere.Thaddeus Blanchettehttp://www.omangueblog.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-63192396032086823032010-01-05T20:48:07.996-08:002010-01-05T20:48:07.996-08:00Baby Steps at 1/5/10 5:49 PM: My bad. I didn't...Baby Steps at 1/5/10 5:49 PM: My bad. I didn't label the paragraphs of my post 1/5/10 5:18 PM as pertaining to specific authors' specific posts. This has been an interesting thread.<br /><br />The "epiphany?" paragraph was a response to Willow and FtT at 1/4/10 10:09, 10:14 AM<br /><br />In the paragraph labeled "off-track", I was responding to Bluey512@1/4/10 9:20 AM, and proffering a suggestion for another thread topic. <br />IGNORE FOLLOWING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ OFF-TOPIC. American pop culture is consumed all over the world, and could be a significant vector for racism in some other countries. U.S. white consumers exert buying power over Hollywood because producers want to make the expensive Big Hits rather than lower cost films that can go against Hollywood (white) homogenization and still make money.NancyPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-528074983146803930.post-6097121330470218142010-01-05T18:52:54.037-08:002010-01-05T18:52:54.037-08:00Interesting. And I think NancyP was responding to ...Interesting. And I think NancyP was responding to a question I asked in the comments section. So I suppose I derailed my own post?fromthetropicsnoreply@blogger.com