(source)
Most white Americans take it for granted that the Jim Crow days of racial segregation are over, and that all people in the U.S. are free to go wherever they like in public. Nevertheless, I think it's safe to say that most white Americans spend nearly all of their private and public lives in largely white settings, in effect "segregated" from non-white people. Especially from black people. Whenever that happens, as I've said before, that's not an accident -- it's latter-day segregation, de facto style, and an ongoing distaste for black people on the part of many white people still accounts for it.
Most of the time the barriers and "rules" resulting in today's racial segregation are subtle and hard to notice (especially for white people). At other times, they're more clearly about keeping black people out. And yet, even these more explicitly racist barriers and rules are coded differently now, and their racial focus passes as something else. As a result, they often squeak by as legal forms of discrimination, since they don't explicitly violate anyone's civil rights. Nevertheless, these rules do still end up segregating groups of people in terms of race.
One form of segregation -- restrictive dress codes -- often seems more clearly, consciously racist than other kinds of whitened gatherings. For example, I imagine that if confronted in public, the owners of the following two places -- a bar and a restaurant -- would deny all up and down that racism motivates their dress codes. But really, who and what is being kept out by these rules, and who and what is being let in?
dress code for Hugs,
no sports attire
no long white tees
no hoodies!
no baggie jeans
no timberlands
no bullshit!!
we have the right
to be selective!!
dress code for Gilly's Bar and Grill:
No athletic gear; hats sideways; logo gear; neck chains, medallions,
pendants -- with the exception of UND Fighting Sioux apparel [?!]
No excessively baggy clothing
No athletic gear; hats sideways; logo gear; neck chains, medallions,
pendants -- with the exception of UND Fighting Sioux apparel [?!]
No excessively baggy clothing
No sleeveless shirts or excessively baggy pants
No doo rags or bandannas, backwards hats, jogging pants or cutoff shorts
No hoodies
No jumpsuits
No flat caps or caps with stickers
No excessively long shirts
No excessively long chains outside of shirt
No apparel with the label FUBU, SOUTH POLE, or GUNIT
No shirts that may be considered offensive
No caps cocked to the side (full front or full backwards)
No doo rags or bandannas, backwards hats, jogging pants or cutoff shorts
No hoodies
No jumpsuits
No flat caps or caps with stickers
No excessively long shirts
No excessively long chains outside of shirt
No apparel with the label FUBU, SOUTH POLE, or GUNIT
No shirts that may be considered offensive
No caps cocked to the side (full front or full backwards)
A look at the flashing photos on the site for Gilly's Bar and Grill shows the kind of racial mix, or rather lack thereof, that the restaurant's owners are trying to maintain. And I don't think the fact that Gilley's is in the very white state of North Dakota justifies that more or less explicit and segregated whiteness. After all, if the restaurant's locale is so very white, then why even bother with a dress code that's so clearly coded in terms of race?
I'm sure that some would say in defense of such rules that they're not really about race -- that anyone of any race who wears certain kinds of clothing and such can't get in. That may well be true, but anyone in the U.S. who hasn't been living in a closet for the last decade or so knows that the apparel in question is mostly apparel that signifies as "black." So even if it's white people wearing such clothes who can't get in, it's really what amounts to "blackness" that's being kept out. And in many cases, that does end up in actual black people being kept out as well, no matter what their clothing looks like.
I'm sure that some would say in defense of such rules that they're not really about race -- that anyone of any race who wears certain kinds of clothing and such can't get in. That may well be true, but anyone in the U.S. who hasn't been living in a closet for the last decade or so knows that the apparel in question is mostly apparel that signifies as "black." So even if it's white people wearing such clothes who can't get in, it's really what amounts to "blackness" that's being kept out. And in many cases, that does end up in actual black people being kept out as well, no matter what their clothing looks like.
Just this week, for instance, a place in Chicago called Mother's Original Night Club apparently enforced its own dress code in an even more explicitly racist way. The actions of club employees prompted an anti-racism protest the next morning by over two hundred college students.
As the students' newspaper reports,
Washington University seniors on their class trip accused a Chicago nightclub of racial discrimination over the weekend, protesting nearby after the club allegedly denied entry to six black male students because of their race.
“I think it’s because we were a group of predominantly black men and they felt threatened,” said senior Blake Jones, one of the students who was not allowed into the bar.
About 200 Washington University seniors were attending Mother’s Night Club Original bar on Saturday night as part of their class trip to Chicago, sponsored by the Senior Class Council. According to Senior Class President Fernando Cutz, the six black students were told they would not be allowed in because of their failure to comply with the bar’s “baggy jeans” policy. A few white students who had already been admitted then came out to demonstrate that their jeans were more “baggy,” but the black students were still denied admission.
The six students offered to change their clothes, but the bar manager still refused to allow them in. The white students were allowed to return.
As the students' newspaper reports,
Washington University seniors on their class trip accused a Chicago nightclub of racial discrimination over the weekend, protesting nearby after the club allegedly denied entry to six black male students because of their race.
“I think it’s because we were a group of predominantly black men and they felt threatened,” said senior Blake Jones, one of the students who was not allowed into the bar.
About 200 Washington University seniors were attending Mother’s Night Club Original bar on Saturday night as part of their class trip to Chicago, sponsored by the Senior Class Council. According to Senior Class President Fernando Cutz, the six black students were told they would not be allowed in because of their failure to comply with the bar’s “baggy jeans” policy. A few white students who had already been admitted then came out to demonstrate that their jeans were more “baggy,” but the black students were still denied admission.
The six students offered to change their clothes, but the bar manager still refused to allow them in. The white students were allowed to return.
"Hundreds of Washington University in St. Louis seniors held signs
on Sunday morning in protest of the discrimination
of six black students who were denied entrance
to Mother's Night Club Original bar on Saturday night." (Student Life)
on Sunday morning in protest of the discrimination
of six black students who were denied entrance
to Mother's Night Club Original bar on Saturday night." (Student Life)
It's great to hear that the Washington University students who went on this trip all stood up and demonstrated their solidarity against racism by organizing a protest:
In response to the incident, students staged a 15-minute protest Sunday morning outside the Hotel Indigo, which is near the bar and is where the seniors had been staying for the weekend. The students gathered there because they were unable get the proper permits to protest outside the bar. . . .
Students at the protest held signs and flyers with slogans like, “Mothers don’t hate.”
“It was really kind of a unique mix of emotions at the protest,” senior Kim Halom said. “It was definitely a somber, serious time, but even more than that people were trying to process how ludicrous it was that this had happened the night before.”
Students at the protest held signs and flyers with slogans like, “Mothers don’t hate.”
“It was really kind of a unique mix of emotions at the protest,” senior Kim Halom said. “It was definitely a somber, serious time, but even more than that people were trying to process how ludicrous it was that this had happened the night before.”
The students didn't stop their resistance with a protest. According to the Chicago Tribune, some of them "filed a civil rights complaint with the Illinois attorney general's office. On Thursday, they added complaints to the Chicago Commission on Human Relations and the U.S. Justice Department. The Anti-Defamation League is drafting a letter on their behalf to Mother's."
Whenever I encounter businesses that impose such exclusionary restrictions, I remember a quip by Groucho Marx: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member." If a restaurant or a "club" of any kind has a dress code, and that code implies that the business is especially glad to have me instead of others because I'm white and they're not, that restriction alone makes it a club I'd never enter. As well as a place I'd be glad to join a protest against.
And as the photos above from Hugs and Gilly's Bar and Grill demonstrate, such racist restrictions are not especially unusual. As noted by Regis Murayi, one of the excluded black students, the discrimination he faced was " nothing new":
He said he has experienced similar treatment at other venues prior to the trip.
“I would say that a lot of people underestimate how much this stuff goes on outside of the Wash. U. bubble,” Murayi said. “This happens frequently. Is this an anomaly? No, this happens all the time from a black male’s perspective, and from an outside perspective I feel like a lot of people don’t know.”
By the way, in case you still think that this racist throwback to the days of Jim Crow was an anomaly, here's another apparent example, and another, and another (and yet another, in which a bar and grill was convicted of "imposing a dress code that targeted hairstyles primarily favored by and associated with African-Americans, such as dreadlocks, cornrows and braids").
What about you? Have you experienced or witnessed de facto racial segregation of this kind, or any other?
If you're white, would you renounce your white privilege, by refusing to join the whitened crowd?
He said he has experienced similar treatment at other venues prior to the trip.
“I would say that a lot of people underestimate how much this stuff goes on outside of the Wash. U. bubble,” Murayi said. “This happens frequently. Is this an anomaly? No, this happens all the time from a black male’s perspective, and from an outside perspective I feel like a lot of people don’t know.”
By the way, in case you still think that this racist throwback to the days of Jim Crow was an anomaly, here's another apparent example, and another, and another (and yet another, in which a bar and grill was convicted of "imposing a dress code that targeted hairstyles primarily favored by and associated with African-Americans, such as dreadlocks, cornrows and braids").
What about you? Have you experienced or witnessed de facto racial segregation of this kind, or any other?
If you're white, would you renounce your white privilege, by refusing to join the whitened crowd?
[My thanks to several readers who wrote to me about the Mother's Night Club Original incident.]
105 comments:
As a Chicagoan, I know of the establishment on the post. This bar, along with the others on the street where it is located, is very much one of these havens. On top of everything, last year I walked in that area during Halloween, it was a great haven -also- for pretty tasteless costumes. Here's the citysearch reviews of the place... it seems like their treatment of minorities was no secret:
http://chicago.citysearch.com/profile/11342767/chicago_il/mother_s_night_club_original.html
Thank you for the insightful post. I've never even stopped to notice any dress code at a restaurant where we go to eat, much less consider what the words really mean.
Now I will.
What about you? Have you experienced or witnessed de facto racial segregation of this kind, or any other?
Absolutely. Australia is very segregated ime. I have been to many towns in Australia where there is a 'white' pub and a 'black' pub (or several white pubs and a black pub). There are other segregated areas here too, parks in particular, but sometimes other public places. Often the segregation is couched by white people in terms of danger (ie Aboriginal people are scary and 'other', so we don't go where they are).
In addition, Aboriginal people often must adhere to stricter dress codes and standards of behaviour than whites to get into places. This is very much the case where admittance is at the discretion of the bouncer/door person.
If you're white, would you renounce your white privilege, by refusing to join the whitened crowd?
Yes, have done repeatedly and will do again.
Devil's advocate here:
I'm assuming the bars are trying to avoid a certain element. They don't want any trouble - from teh culerds!oh no! or their own regulars. For example, if you know your patrons tend to be racist, you wouldn't want someone coming in and getting them all riled up. After all, you're going to have to clean up if there's a fight. Perhaps they associate a certain urban style of dress with that lifestyle and those behaviors. I know I do. Granted there are plenty of upstanding black men who still dress that way to fit in with their peers, but is it really so off-base to assume that someone in a fitted cap, baggy everything, and chains around their neck isn't more likely to start a fight if someone steps on his shoes?
I've been to hip hop clubs, ultra-hip lounges, and honky-tonks (ha...honky). I can honestly say the safest I've ever felt was in the honky-tonk. I was confident that the patrons wouldn't get crazy unless they were drunk. At hip-hop clubs, the people seem to show up ready for anything. Are you also going to call out the many black-owned/operated establishments that have the exact same dress codes? Who knows us better than our own? Black club owners don't want that kind of trouble either. They even have metal detectors. I've never been checked for weapons at a hipster lounge.
I'm not saying it's right to discriminate, but it's not completely unfounded. You have to admit that, in the least.
@ HawkMom-as-devil's-advocate:
Just to pick out a couple of points,
One problem with that logic (which is of course one of the ways that segregation has been "justified") is that it puts the responsibility on the wrong party. It's basically saying something along these lines:
"If anything happens it is your fault, because we just can't handle being around you."
This logic, of course, does not resemble Earth Logic.
Another problem, of course, is the fact that the dress codes in question specifically target ONE group. If you need examples of how different styles of dress can create trouble, check out the ill-fated "sagging" thread of a few days ago. Notice how the dress codes don't say "no [punk/Goth/etc] clothing."
If the goal is to create a neat, orderly bar, perhaps "coat & tie required for men" would be a more appropriate dress code?
HawkMom-- "but is it really so off-base to assume that someone in a fitted cap, baggy everything, and chains around their neck isn't more likely to start a fight if someone steps on his shoes?"
Yes. It is.
I've never thought about how dress codes could be racial/racist. Thanks for this post.
From now on, I'm gonna keep an eye out for it..
Still no one wants to acknowledge the black-owned estrablishments that enforce the same dress codes?
@K - We're just going to have to agree to disagree. If you're comfortable with people dressed like that approaching you when you're walking alone at night, then you're just a better person than I am. /slight sarcasm.
OH MY GOD. Macon, this is the first time I've been truly shocked by something written here. Admittedly, I've lived in very white places, but for the past three years I've lived in Boston and have NEVER seen a dress code sign of any kind, nevermind a racist one. I do recognize that there are parts of the city that are whiter than others, and that Boston is segregated in many ways but I cannot IMAGINE that happening here (and yet, given the widespread examples you've shown, I'm sure it does).
Thank you for this one.
And to answer your question, I would absolutely NEVER enter a bar that so clearly excluded Black (or any other) people. Insane.
And also (I should really read comments first), HawkMom, I'm appalled. While I definitely get Willow's point that a fancy place might suggest a coat & tie (which I still personally don't think is okay, but not for reasons of race), your suggestion that keeping out "that kind" of people is absurd. And you haven't fooled me - you're not playing devil's advocate, you're playing blatant racist.
I'm from Chicago, but I've never heard of this place (probably because I live on the South Side). Alicia, what do you know about the area?
One thing I do know is that the North Side has a general connotation of "Whites Only", so this is completely unsurprising, though this whole baggy pants thing still has me scratching my head. Do that many people still wear their pants "danger zone low"? When the boxers are completely showing, that gives me the impression that the guy is open to...backdoor play. (I know Snopes debunked the prison rumor, but I can't help but think you must be showing off the booty for someone. I also admit to being biased because the one guy I know who wears his pants like that is trying-and failing-to remain on the down low.) Most guys I know (I go to a predominately White private university), Black, White, whatever, don't wear their pants emo-tight, but they also aren't baggy enough to get an eyeful of boxers (especially since most guys wear shirts that go past the jean line). It seems to be the general college style to wear looser pants, so I don't even consider them "baggy", and since underwear isn't being seen I'm not sure what qualm someone could have with the fit of the pants, but I digress.
I think it's interesting you asked the (hypothetical) question about the reactions of people who find out about the discriminatory practices there. I read some reviews of it online (not sure if it was the link Alicia posted, because I just googled it), and the people who wrote good reviews completely ignored that factor, even though there were reviews either right above or right below theirs that discussed unfair treatment. Do you think people just put on blinders and figure, "Hey, not my problem"?
Wow. I live in South Dakota and I've never seen such a blatant dress code requirement at any bar/restaurant establishment. I've usually only seen the basic "no shirt, no shoes, no service".
If anything like that went up around here, I would really hope there would be an outcry. That's really disturbing.
I agree with Willow that if the requirement was simply to dress nicely, then stating what is required rather than what you don't want would be the better solution.
I first became aware of this issue when I watched "Knocked Up".
What's kinda funny about their article is the assumption that the people they are keeping out will continue dressing that way. Various posters have mentioned a significant shift from baggy to more fitted clothing, and while I still see plenty of the baggy, there are more instances where I see fitted. Fashion changes much faster than antiquated notions.
I think a lot of bars assume their patrons are somewhat racist, much like many Hollywood producers will simply make the assumption that white audiences won't like an Asian lead even though America is clearly ready (Avatar fan here).
I'm gay, and I ocassionally take part on a bi-monthly event called Guerrilla Queer Bar, where a bunch of LGBT folks and Allies invade a "straight bar". The whole thing sorta follows the safety in numbers, gay money is just as green as straight money, and we are raising visibility and letting people see how diverse the community is.
As Macon D mentioned in his post, sagregation is still alive and well and it needs to be fought. If the bar is masking their racism with a dress code, dress that code and go in numbers and force them to reveal their true face, or embrace everybody.
@Hawkmom,
I see what you're doing there, because I've done it, but two things are important to remember:
1. Black-owned establishments are capable of racist behavior, if they exclude some folks on the basis of racist assumptions.
2. Whether or not we *feel* safe is not a great barometer for whether we *are* safe.
Look, anyone who owns a bar has to be aware that their business involves charging people to *drink*; drinking lowers inhibitions and encourages obnoxious behavior. Trying to discriminate between the obnoxious drinkers you want and those you don't is just. asking. for. trouble.
And racist.
Hmm... I think thse codes have as much to do with classism as racism (not saying that to minimise the racism, though.)
If you're white, would you renounce your white privilege, by refusing to join the whitened crowd?
I am white and I would avoid those places. HOWEVER, I would STILL have the privilege of not being made to feel unwelcome or second-class.
Privilege doesn't go away. Being anti-racist doesn't mean I can say "I'm the right sort of white person" or "I'm a good girl now, I don't have to watch myself for racism."
The great irony of this situation is that Washington U is an extremely elite university, they only except 19% of applicants and many of these students are pre-med, pre-law, or engineering majors. These 6 young men this bar discriminated against are black nerds and future leaders and professionals that will have a great deal of power/money. There is a reason discrimination law suits have already been filed, Wash U kids are not to be trifled with.
@ Jillian
it is funny you mention Boston because many people have told me that Boston is an extremely racist place, perhaps this is an old reputation and things are different now or maybe the discriminate is just less blatant.
"If you're comfortable with people dressed like that approaching you when you're walking alone at night, then you're just a better person than I am. /slight sarcasm."
I'm kinda over this type of comment. I keep seeing people repeat the same pattern on practically every post here... like "You may SAY you're an anti-racist, fellow white person, but you and I both know that you're afraid of THOSE PEOPLE."
This one especially, I decided to call out for a few reasons:
1. Actually, I am comfortable with people dressed LIKE THAT approaching me at such a time. It's been suggested that I lack some kind of "fear gene," but there's a data point for you, since you seem to be assuming that all white people share your fear.
2. On the other hand, there have been situations where I have reacted to a black person with fear where I would not react the same way to a white person. I am not proud of this, but there it is. In this situation, do we blame the black people, or do we examine our own assumptions? If you chose the former, you probably don't belong on this blog.
HawkMom,
I don't think you're playing "Devil's Advocate" because your previous posts note otherwise. I think it's what you feel and perhaps, it's easier to say that you're playing the DA card.
Those signs are also classist as previously mentioned. They clearly think that dressing one way denotes a social class, which I can refute. I live and teach in an affluent suburb of Los Angeles. My students did not get the memo that baggy pants equate to lower-class status as they drive off in their new cars.
The irony is that the patrons that are accepted into such establishments tend to necessitate the police presence after a bar fight or any sexual harassment stemming from those included.
@thelady
No, I lived in Boston for a while and Boston IS extremely segregated. I got the feeling while living there that part of this is because white ethnicities (Italians, Irish) are also still segregated there. When you end up having white people who are still made to feel like second-class citizens, then they're going to go to an extra effort to put other people beneath them.
In New York, most of my social circles are primarily white and Asian (South and East) with a few black or Latin/South American people in the mix. In Boston, I never encountered a black person at any of the social events I went to. It was so creepily white that I felt really uncomfortable, even if the segregation wasn't as deliberately overt as it was when I lived in Virginia. In some ways, being in Virginia, where people were open about their personal race issues, was less disturbing.
This post expands on something I was trying to explain to my (white) in laws. In a de facto white supremacist society, white people are considered worthy and acceptable by virtue of being white. Minorities are only acceptable and worthy if they ware well educated, deferential, and dressed a "certain" way (non-ethnic, business casual, preppy).
HawkMom, you say you feel safest at the honky-tonk. How do you feel about the fact that a black person would likely feel neither safe nor welcome there? Does that seem like a problem to you, or an acceptable price to pay for a sense of comfort and "safety"?
Hawkmom is actually Black, which I think poses an interesting question regarding "Black" vs. "White" reactions to situations. Does the response of Hawkmom trigger people to assume that she is White? And when they find out she isn't, what happens then? How does she fit into the White privilege/anti-racist dichotomy?
Honeybrown,
Can you explain your last sentence? I didn't quite get that. You are saying that the irony is that the racist people are likely to start fights/have sex harassment issues without the presence of Black people?
>> "How does she fit into the White privilege/anti-racist dichotomy?"
As a demonstration of the insidiousness and strength of systemic oppression.
Internalized racism
"We have the right to be selective" - gee what's that code for.
Pasting my original comment from Resist Racism's site:
What gets me is how these reports always end up focusing on the POCs' reaction to the racism — they can’t just leave it at the racism itself, they’ve got to slip in that justification.
It’s always, oh, the POCs were __________ fill in the blank: frustrated, emotional, belligerent, upset, loud, crowding, angry … whatever. Seriously, it’s like code for “reasonable” (aka white) readers, “hey, under normal circumstances, yeah, this might have been racist, but listen, if you’d have seen how loud/scary/angry these folks were, you’d know we just had the safety and well-being of our other patrons in mind!“
We just had a story in our local paper about an incident w/ local law enforcement and a Black pastor – same thing. The pastor was loud. He was belligerent with police. He was angry. Unreasonable. Then the comments after the article: he dresses too flashy. The car he drives is flashy. You can tell by looking at him that he must not be walking that closely with the Lord. No, I’m not kidding.
Thing is, white people living in that white bubble, not understanding the history behind these incidents, have no idea how it would FEEL to be on the other side of these actions while knowing that it’s not an isolated incident … how yes, you’d feel frustrated, wronged, angry, any of those things. Even the so-called liberal/progressive white folks will read an article shaking their head at the unfairness … until they read that the POC got upset about the RACISM, then all of a sudden it’s, “oh, well, if only they’d have acted right … ”
Seems that happens in every article about a racist incident.
As for your question- yes, definitely. I would not support an establishment that uses these methods of segregation and discrimination.
Hmm, I guess the sequel to my previous comment is "How does a white person sensitively and politely point out the fact or possibility that a POC has internalized racist attitudes", which I think I failed at. (Although that link is still worth reading).
But "Go read Cornel West" isn't much better, is it? (He has the whole thing on how even he is a quote-unquote "white supremacist").
I'm trying to think of how I would feel if a non-disabled person pointed out that I had internalized Stereotype Z about my specific disability and had not been aware of it...I honestly can't decide.
I'm not sure why in these discussions people feel the need to say that such and such event is classist or sexist and not just racist. It seems that when posters do this, they are not attempting to show the interconnectedness between "isms" but reduce just how racist a particular incident was. That said, I think these dress codes are more racist than they are classist. The black men involved here were college-educated. Moreover, if you look at some of the other examples of dress code discrimination Macon mentioned, some of them target black hairstyles: braids, cornrows or dreadlocks. Blacks of all socioeconomic classes wear their hair in such styles. You might venture to say that black intellectuals have a higher chance of wearing natural hairstyles than less educated blacks do.
Anyway, thanks for this, Macon. I plan on mentioning it on my race relations blog for About.com soon.
Lastly, Hawkmom, I've been in honky tonks and did not feel very comfortable. And, as a woman, when I'm walking down the street by myself, I discriminate against men. I don't live in an area with a huge amount of blacks, so the men in question aren't black. If I see a group of men on the street, chances are pretty high that I'll cross the street before I'm noticed.
Thanks for the link Willow. :-)
More Cowbell, you make a very good point. I was reading about this in yesterday and today's Tribunes, and the story the bar manager is sticking to is that they were "about to let the guys in", but then people started pushing or getting angry or something (sorry I'm not being specific, but the article itself wasn't too explicit), and so then they decided not to let that in. My problem with that is that their story still doesn't address why they didn't let them in in the first place even after a) they pointed out that their White friends who were dressed similarly were allowed entry and b) they offered to change and come back. Seems like the students tried to be cordial and didn't assume it was a racial thing upfront, but it became obvious as the bouncers kept searching for reasons to keep them out.
I'm glad this is getting attention--too often these "old boys' clubs" can keep practicing their racism under the radar because people are either uncertain of whether an incident truly occurred (it can be easy to doubt oneself in the moment or after) or don't feel like being bothered and just vow not to return (which is what places like that want).
Willow,
I would say there is no right way, because no matter how nicely you try to put it it's always going to reek of a patronizing attitude (whether the subject be race, disability, gender, etc.). In general, I think that trying to tell people about themselves almost always has negative results.
Like someone mentioned upthread, these black students were from an elite university and were obviously the victims of racial prejudice. I've experienced the same. It comes with the territory, unfortunately. No matter how we are as individuals, black people are going to be judged according to what gets seen the most on the news and walking down the street. That's how these stereotypes are born - not out of thin air.
Someone noted that black clubs with these dress codes are allowed to do so, because they aren't cutting out a race. Neither are the other places. It's the old "black person vs. nigger" argument. When I see those signs, instead of "No Blacks Allowed!" I see "No Blacks Who Dress Like This, Because You're Likely to Behave Like This!" I typically don't patronize places that would have to enforce a dress code, though, so it doesn't really concern me. I always have HawkBaby with me, so I go to places where other suburban SAHMs "hang out". That's a very specific demographic and places that cater to us have an understood climate.
I grew up in a middle-class, nuclear family in the suburbs. Where I'm from, most black people are poor or uneducated (for the record, neither of my parents have a college degree, just hardworking). I would go places and have people either look through me or talk down to me. It's frustrating, but what am I supposed to do? Sanction every person who offends me? I'm too busy living. Honestly, I've found that you can affect change much more by just being a positive example.
We lived in a historically black (and crime-ridden) neighborhood until I was about 7, when we moved to the 'burbs. Some white kid called me a "yard ape" while I was riding my bike down the street one day. He used to sic his GSD on a male black friend in the house behind ours, and he and some of his neo-Nazi friends beat up another black friend of ours while he was walking home from school one day. We were in 5th grade and these guys were in middle school. That was my first brush with racism.
My great-great grandfather was mulatto. He was murdered for being an "uppity nigger". His children came home to find his brains splattered all over the walls. Courtesy of the local KKK. No arrests.
My 20-year-old cousin was murdered two years ago while standing outside of a nightclub (in Chicago!). A white guy was driving by and yelled out "Nigger!" and shot him. The guy was a young Iraq war vet who had just come back.
I don't want anyone to think for a second that I don't understand white supremacy, racism, prejudice, or the ugly history of it in this country. I understand it all just fine, I've been angry, I've lashed out, shed tears, you name it. But that got me nowhere. Removing the chip from my shoulder allowed so much more positive things. I've met people who have changed my perceptions and vice versa. "Tsk, tsk" is not the way to make a difference. If that's the point of this blog, then you've got a looong way to go.
And to add, I'm not sure which is more insulting: white people who write me off as some stereotype or white people who treat me like some porcelain doll who mustn't be disturbed.
Personally, as a woman, I'm not comfortable with anyone dressed (or not dressed) in any way approaching me when I'm walking alone late at night--but I rarely walk alone late at night because I'm a woman. That's a pretty silly strawman argument.
I remember a club a friend of mine applied to work at which had a yuppiefied "upscale" dress code--and a hiphop room, but god forbid you wear hiphop fashions. And while it was supposedly aimed at yuppie men and women, they had a "towel girl" in the men's room and the waitresses were hired to be decorative as well. The whole place left a bad taste in my mouth, and that was just from the off-hours.
Jasmin,
My last statement suggested the irony of the dress codes preventing "troublesome crowds (code: blacks)" out, while preventing troublesome whites in to drink and cause trouble to fellow white patrons. Trouble isn't confined to race.
There's a bar/club in my city, mostly patronized by students from the nearby university, which has a very similar dress code. And this is one of the most diverse cities in the world.
I go to the University of Georgia which has close to 80 bars, each one with a dress code... most of them are not really enforced but the handful of bars that the dress codes are strictly enforced are, like you said, not bars I would want to be in anyway. I can only take so many drunk frat guys in one night.
Honeybrown,
That's about what I thought you were saying. The thing is, they (the bar staff and patrons) don't realize the obvious double standard. White guys causing trouble are just an unruly bunch. Black guys who cause trouble are just being themselves.
@ HawkMom
>> "If that's the point of this blog, then you've got a looong way to go."
I get a feeling that a major reason a lot of us white people are here is to figure out how to to get to a point in between unconscious acceptance of stereotypes and what you termed "porcelain doll" syndrome, both of which are dehumanizing, racist and unproductive. It sucks to admit that it's not automatic or even easy, and I'm not expecting gratitude for trying.
As to the original post, I hesitated on saying this in the beginning, because I don't want to sound like I'm just trashing the school, but, quoting one of the Wash U kids, "I would say that a lot of people underestimate how much this stuff goes on outside of the Wash. U. bubble." That has got to be a TITANIUM bubble, because the part of St. Louis where Wash U is located is a living diorama of segregation. I live a few miles southeast of there--in a more, um, diverse neighborhood--and...well, wow. The school itself is also fairly problematic (firsthand knowledge via time spent on campus and friends at the school).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, good for them for protesting, but it's much easier to stand up to racism and try to undercut white privilege when it's not something you experience on a daily basis.
This is pretty interesting.
I went to the United Nations this summer, with my high school speech teammates. We stayed at a 5 star hotel that was favored by many businesspeople and international guests who had UN business. So we expected a fairly open-minded crowd.
Two of my teammates were Viet, one was Mexican American, and I am South Asian. We were quite excited to go swimming on a rooftop pool overlooking Manhattan, and so we were quickly entering the area and laughing and joking around.
There was a woman who was swimming, she was white, and she had been doing laps or whatever. My friends and I, for whatever reason, entered the opposite side of the pool.
As soon as she saw us, she climbed out of the pool and left in a huff. One of my friends pointed it out to me, quietly, and I said, 'Oh she probably didn't want to be disturbed by a bunch of loud kids who are going to splash and make a lot of noise anyway.'
But I still wonder if she was disturbed by the fact that we were a bunch of loud kids, or a bunch of minorities, or both.
Although we were talking excitedly, we took extra care not to disturb the other people who were around. Nobody else had a problem with us.
Reminds me of your pool posts.
macon d, I pop in on your blog from time to time, and I find it fascinating, but I want to ask you one questions: did you happen to take your name from Toni Morrison's Son of Solomon???
~*~ Pretty Star, OA
Washington DC is even worse. Especially in the Adams Morgan area, which likes to masquerade as uran young professional chic, but its really just an older version of trashy college park, maryland with a couple nice places thrown in. As a black male, you pretty much cant get in anywhere. there are no posted dress codes, i really just think they tell the bouncers quotas of black men. From personal experience i was out with 5 very classily dressed black females and 3 black males, all university of maryland basketball players, one who had recently been drafted to the nba. all of us girls got in but then when it came to the males getting in, there was a no tshirt rule. i'll even say the bar, TOM TOMS because its a 100% true story. anyway, so we (the girls) made a fuss because there were several white males on the balcony 1 foot away from the bouncer who were wearing tshirts. and his response was "oh, i didnt see them". mind you, there is ONE door of entry into the bar and we saw the bouncer there all night as we walked up and down the strip. so we asked him if he would kick the white tshirt wearers out and he said no. so then we asked again, why cant our friends get in? we really didnt want to mention race because that transforms us into "angry belligerent black women" and every move would be interpreted as a sassy neck roll, and despite our college degrees, we would be thought of as loud ignorant black girls. but then one of us asked to see the manager because "this is RACIST" and then we repeatedly asked the bouncer if he truly was not going to let them in because of the tshirts or because they were black. and as more people came outside, we pointed out every male with a tshirt on who had gained admittance. obviously embarrassed, he let the guys in. now you may have asked why did we patronize a racist establishment? well because thats how EVERY place is in Adams Morgan, and thats how a lot of the US is in general. Are we just never going to leave our house and just hang around only black people for the rest of our lives? HELL NO. we're going to do what we want, where we want. trust me, it probably f*cked up the bouncer's night more than it f*cked up ours, since in the end, we got our way and all he got was embarrased and possibly chastised by management.
Hi Pretty Star,
It's short for Macon Detornay, a character in another novel.
Freedom of Association. :)
These style signifiers do evoke a particular sub-stereotype of "blackness," though. I would challenge you to find a similar sign forbidding, say, these traditional African headscarf things: http://www.buddytv.com/articles/americas-next-top-model/images/cycle-3/yaya-da-costa-0.jpg (sorry I forget what they are called), even though they are worn predominantly if not exclusively by black people. I know a person who was kicked out of a bar because he refused to un-pop his polo shirt collar (no joke). Judging by the crowd in there, the place had no general bias against white people -- just a specific subculture of white person choosing to affect a specific style. I actually applauded them bigtime for this move. I know it's not directly comparable and that dress codes like the one at Gilleys are motivated in part by genuine racism, but...just saying, I'm not sure Hawkmom is too far off, here. "People who dress 'like that'" =/= "black people."
"In general, I think that trying to tell people about themselves almost always has negative results."
That may be true in general, but I hope it doesn't have to be true here. I know Macon has the difficult task as moderator of trying to post only comments and questions that are made in good faith and / or those that will contribute to, rather than detract from, the conversation.
Does that make it appropriate for Willow to point out that HawkMom's statement about feeling safer in the honky tonk smacks of internalized racism? I think the point was worth making, because it demonstrates just how deep and wide the sentiments of the majority culture have spread, and it gives the lie to "Minority X does this too!" sentiment that is so often used in the arguments of racism apologists.
Hmmm. This is not a phenomenon that's easily reducible to traditional [white] talk about racism.
Whether or not the owners of the establishments in mind *intend* to say: "People who dress like that = Black people = not welcome here" is not maybe the most salient issue. The issue is (in part) who gets to make the rules, and who enforces them, and who has the easiest time conforming, and who (in a very broad sense) gets devalued or excluded by the images invoked in getting the "intended" message across?
The "sagging" style is so racially complex, so tied to forms of oppression, so fraught with brutality and resistance to brutality, that it makes me want to eat all of my hair.
But prohibiting it from a bar, (esp. one where a bunch of spoiled white men are getting drunk and celebrating their place in a white supremacist patriarchy, but in other places, too) is hella problematic, no matter what the owners/managers [gatekeepers] "intend".
Gotta bounce now. Late for Sunday lunch at Applebees.
I'm feeling a weird dynamic here. Sometimes non-PoC who are attempting to be open-minded and racially sensitive actually come off as the opposite. I feel like I'm being told how I should feel: "You're oppressed and life is so hard for you. I understand." The reality is, unless you've lived it, you really won't.
When my white husband and I go out together, he's always pointing out people who glare at us or stare. I've got the blinders on. I really don't care. Because of this, and my feeling safer in predominantly white areas, I'm told: "Oh, that's just your internal racism. You don't realize it, because your people have been oppressed for so long." This all leaves me thinking, "Damn. Am I allowed to feel anything? Either way, I have some overly-empathetic white person explaining to me why I feel the way I do, and how it's wrong."
*shrugs*
this particular policy/dress code seems to me to be directed specifically at black men - which is more disturbing to me, because it seems to prop up the notion that black women are acceptable in typical club attire [read: sexy clothes], but black men aren't. so the ladies get to reprise their role as sexually available, because that's their only *acceptable* role, and the dudes are completely written off. not surprised.
pretty blatant though, that the white kids wearing the same fashions were allowed in. glad to know the kids showed solidarity in protesting that crap.
if the restaurant's locale is so very white, then why even bother with a dress code that's so clearly coded in terms of race?
In that case, it probably is about keeping out white people who adopt urban/hip-hop fashions/styles.
That said, I don't see a lot of places with dress codes, though I was turned away once for trying to go to a club while wearing a biker jacket and brightly striped pants.
The funny thing about making this a class issue is that this is a way for lower-class whites to keep out lower-class blacks. I know a bar that has certain "behavior enforcements"-- no standing, there's no television, and the drinks are almost all pricey belgian beers. Neither lower class blacks or whites can afford it, nor are they interested in going: no dress code required. On the other hand, bars that are going to attract a lower-class, disruptive element of all races which wants to keep out blacks in particular are going to have to resort to this sort of dress code.
@ HawkMom
Yes, and that is exactly why I am asking if it is okay to point it out, and if so, how to do it without being the Well-Intentioned White Person (TM). :o)
But I do want to take issue with one thing you said:
>> "I've got the blinders on. I really don't care."
What I am trying to work towards--what I believe we NEED--is a society where blinders/ignoring is no longer necessary. Not for racism, not for sexism, homophobia, prejudice against people with disabilities--none of them. Not necessarily for my sake, because I'm great at brushing off sexism, for example, but for the sake of other people who don't or can't "wear the blinders."
Yes, this means personal discomfort, and not just when it comes to the types of oppression in which I am a member of the privileged group. For me, the goal is worth it. Because this isn't just about me.
HawkMom, I want you to know that I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel. I'm trying to understand why you feel that way.
I read your comment about feeling safer in the honkytonk than in a hip hop club as "gatherings of white people are generally safer than gatherings of black people." I'm wondering if you really feel that way, and if you do, why. And I'm also wondering whether you understand how damaging that kind of belief is, how alienating and isolating, and that it is a belief which arises from the dominant culture's pathologizing of the Other, which, based on your comments, you seem to have internalized.
Do I need to establish my demographic bona fides? I'm an early 30s black woman who lives in a 95% white midwestern town. The only non-white face I see most days is my own. There aren't enough brown folks around for management to bother with signs on the door excluding braids or baggy pants or gold medallions. But I know where I'm not welcome. Thank goddess for the internet, amiright?
Willow and Umbrella, thanks for your explanations. Although we're on opposite sides of the fence, I think I better understand where you're both coming from.
I'll address this and we'll see where this goes:
"I'm wondering if you really feel that way, and if you do, why. And I'm also wondering whether you understand how damaging that kind of belief is, how alienating and isolating, and that it is a belief which arises from the dominant culture's pathologizing of the Other, which, based on your comments, you seem to have internalized."
I do really feel safer in areas with mostly whites as opposed to mostly blacks. It's not a white thing though. I feel safer among groups of Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, etc. I'm not a self-hating black person. It's just been my personal (and varied) experience that there is more likely to be some kind of confrontation among blacks. The only time I've been caught up in social confrontation with white people was when somebody was drunk. With black people? Usually males (of different economic levels) who were "not going", because someone looked at them a certain way, said something to them they deemed "disrespect" or they were out to prove something. I didn't say ALL black men behave this way, nor did I say white men NEVER do, but in MY experiences, black men aren't as quick to let things go. Black men of all ages have yelled out obscenities and slurs at my husband and I as we've been out and about. White men? They'll look, but make sure to look away so we don't think they're staring. We had a grown man actually run to a window to see us walk into a place. Do they SAY anything? Nope. Not once. I've just noticed that when it comes to the issue of my interracial marriage, while men on both sides may have objections or curiosities, white men in general have been "decent" (Not the word I want, but I'm in a hurry) enough to at least keep their mouths shut, whereas black men (my father included) have gone out of their way to let us know how much they disapprove. I make no apologies for not wanting to spend time in places where we'll be treated that way.
Umbrella Today,
I don't think the topic of internalized racism isn't worthy of discussion, but I don't see how telling someone, "It's OK dear, you've just internalized racism" is any less patronizing than someone saying, "That wasn't racism dear, it's all in your head" [insert empathetic smile here]. Either way, you (the general you) are implying that you know more about what's going on inside a person's head than he does. Plus, that person is likely to get defensive or resistant (because no one likes being told what to do/think), and he inevitably gets painted as some "little lost sheep" who can't be saved.
I think a more useful approach might be to say, "Why do you feel that way?" and leave it at that. If internalized racism is going to come up, one can find a way to integrate it into a conversation without pointing out a particular individual (i.e., "I've heard some people say..."), because no one wants to be held up as the "poster child for the brainwashed Black folk", and when people are put on the defensive, the discussion can quickly go down the drain.
I don't think HawkMom feeling more comfortable in certain racial environments is a bad thing. I am white and I feel extremely uncomfortable in all-white, or often even majority white, environments. It just has to do with one's own personal experiences and history.
Okay I will have to come to HawkMom's defense on her last post. I can certainly understand and relate to what she's saying as I'm dealing with such thoughts on a daily basis. But, then again, I'm also dealing with my colorist views (as my name applies, I'm a lighter shade of black); so, I'm a constant work in progress.
It's hard to explain whether or not it's internalized racism or if it's the reality of being a member of said group (whether said membership is consensual or not).
It never ceases to amaze me how naive this blogger is, especially when he assumes that only white people enjoy being in a racially segregated environment. You can say the same for black people too; they enjoy being in the presence of their own kind. It's a very natural thing. I would feel more comfortable in an all-black setting than in an all-white one, or in a setting that is mixed with people of different backgrounds and cultures. It is okay for me to say this because I'm black but a white person who says this cannot because he/she would be labeled a racist. That's one of the hallmarks of black privilege, but the naive blogger of this site could never understand our point of view, how we feel and what makes us feel comfortable. You can continue to talk all you want about white privilege because that's as far as you will go.
I've been to hip hop clubs, ultra-hip lounges, and honky-tonks (ha...honky). I can honestly say the safest I've ever felt was in the honky-tonk.
Why I am not surprised. This is from a supposedly black woman who proclaims that all other blacks are a mass monolith of group thought in religion, music, culture,and shouldn't date IR because they are so different from white people even though she herself claims to be a black woman married to a white man.
HawkMom, (and everyone else, too, really), thanks for patiently explaining your perspectives.
I feel frustrated because I understand that the feelings that are extrapolated from personal experiences are the hardest to fight, and I want to point out ... so many things! Can I refer anyone who's interested back to Macon's post on July 7, 2009 ("Think That Black People Are Loud")? I think it applies.
You feel safe where you feel safe ... The End. I'll back off now.
HawkMom, you say you feel safest at the honky-tonk. How do you feel about the fact that a black person would likely feel neither safe nor welcome there? Does that seem like a problem to you, or an acceptable price to pay for a sense of comfort and "safety"?
I live in Texas and live about 10 miles from a honky tonk. I have yet to step foot in it because I know I would be unwelcome there.
Does the response of Hawkmom trigger people to assume that she is White? And when they find out she isn't, what happens then? How does she fit into the White privilege/anti-racist dichotomy?
She has issues with self hatred, which feeds into white supremacist ideology. Instead of lumping herself in with the group. She thinks she is not like the "others", which to me is an insult, to her it is praise. I personally find it insulting when white people, who usually have limited experiences with black people can automatically tell I am different because I don't fit into a stereotype.
---------------
Where I'm from, most black people are poor or uneducated (for the record, neither of my parents have a college degree, just hardworking).
Yes all negroes are poor Hawkmom, most of them are. OK we aren't but television portrays us that way. I mean look at Good Times.
I didn't know black people could be middle class and hard working. That is so strange to me.
, I've been angry, I've lashed out, shed tears, you name it. But that got me nowhere. Removing the chip from my shoulder allowed so much more positive things.
If you wish it away, racism doesn't exist.
Keisha,
I think it's a difference when POCs say that they feel better in a POC environment than in an all-white one due to safety in numbers. When most whites do it, there's an intentional (subconscious or not) racial exclusivity in place.
@Siditty
Why am I not surprised that the "open-minded and enlightened" Siditty would pick apart one line of so many that I wrote - ignoring other very important insights that I shared - and use it to make petty accusations and attacks. If you don't believe me to be the race and gender I "claim", how about just dropping it? I try to keep cordial with strangers in real life and on the web, but I must say you're becoming pathetic.
HawkMom, you say you feel safest at the honky-tonk. How do you feel about the fact that a black person would likely feel neither safe nor welcome there? Does that seem like a problem to you, or an acceptable price to pay for a sense of comfort and "safety"?
I live in Texas and live about 10 miles from a honky tonk. I have yet to step foot in it because I know I would be unwelcome there.
Does the response of Hawkmom trigger people to assume that she is White? And when they find out she isn't, what happens then? How does she fit into the White privilege/anti-racist dichotomy?
She has issues with self hatred, which feeds into white supremacist ideology. Instead of lumping herself in with the group. She thinks she is not like the "others", which to me is an insult, to her it is praise. I personally find it insulting when white people, who usually have limited experiences with black people can automatically tell I am different because I don't fit into a stereotype.
---------------
Where I'm from, most black people are poor or uneducated (for the record, neither of my parents have a college degree, just hardworking).
Yes all negroes are poor Hawkmom, most of them are. OK we aren't but television portrays us that way. I mean look at Good Times.
I didn't know black people could be middle class and hard working. That is so strange to me.
, I've been angry, I've lashed out, shed tears, you name it. But that got me nowhere. Removing the chip from my shoulder allowed so much more positive things.
If you wish it away, racism doesn't exist.
-----------------
Because of this, and my feeling safer in predominantly white areas
Really, where do you hang out where there are droves of black criminals. Do the black middle class not exist where you live, is there no black upper class. Most metropolitan areas have these things. Educated black people are everywhere.
Honky Tonks tend to attract a certain class of white people, and it is usually lower class, yet you feel comfortable there than hanging out in a black environment with middle and upper middle class people who probably don't belong to any gangs or engage in criminal activity. I don't buy it.
I personally don't mind hanging out in predominantly white or predominantly black areas, but I guess it is because I might be a bit more selective in who I hang out with? Not so much by class, but by common interests. I am not quite sure.
@ Jasmin:
Excellent points (and as a bonus, you made me laugh--always appreciated). I think sometimes it *is* possible that other people understand why we think what we do when even we can't see it--I mean, that's one of the primary reasons to have a best friend, right?--but when there is a systemically-enforced power difference (like between a white person and a POC) it's probably not a good idea for the white person to propose that a POC person has internalized racist attitudes.
If I think intersectionally--so for me, primarily disability and sexism issues--I do think it is appropriate for other disabled people/women to point out my own problems there, however. But honeybrown has an interesting point about colorism, so I guess it could be different for race...I have no real insight here, and IMO white people have no business discussing colorism anyway. This is a case of White Girl Shuts Up Now. :o)
I stand by what I said about how it is necessary to face up to internalized self-oppression in order to end societal oppression, but I'm going to put it in the "thoughts privileged people shouldn't project onto others" column.
@ Everyone:
Thanks for the internalized-racism tangent. This has been really helpful for me.
@ Keisha:
Do you not understand the second word of "stuff white people do"? Working through white privilege and how it hurts people is kinda the point...
Why am I not surprised that the "open-minded and enlightened" Siditty would pick apart one line of so many that I wrote - ignoring other very important insights that I shared - and use it to make petty accusations and attacks. If you don't believe me to be the race and gender I "claim", how about just dropping it? I try to keep cordial with strangers in real life and on the web, but I must say you're becoming pathetic.
Yes,
You have me figured out. It confuses me why someone like you likes to troll antiracist websites playing devil advocate each and every time, while proclaiming you are scared to be around other black people? I will drop it, because this isn't my blog, and I think I replied to more than one line, and to me it is more than appropriate to cease the conversation so as not to derail from the blog topic at hand.
I apologize Macon
Back to the topic at hand. I guess that many night clubs have images they want to uphold, but seem like they enjoy turning away money to uphold their image. It explains why so many nightclubs tend to fail.
Creating a dress code for the sole purpose of excluding a certain type, perceived or not is a bit sad and pathetic. I understand if you demand all your patrons to not wear jeans, but to allow some to wear jeans and others can't get in wearing the same jeans, you can't help but question what other factors are in play, and remember there are racial stereotypes to certain "cliques" or "groups", such as hipsters.
There is a movie I totally identify with called Afro Punk. I strongly identified because the music of my youth was usually associated with white people, and whenever I would go to shows, I was inevitably the only black or one of few blacks at these shows. Even for groups in which the members were black. I remember trying to get into certain establishments and people trying to explain to me why I wouldn't like it, because it wouldn't have music I was supposed to like such as hip hop or R&B. I usually had no problems with bouncers because many times I would go with a group of white friends to these places, but the few times I went alone or with other POC, the bouncers would kind of give us strange looks or make sure we knew what we were getting into before we paid our cover to get in.
I stand by what I said about how it is necessary to face up to internalized self-oppression in order to end societal oppression, but I'm going to put it in the "thoughts privileged people shouldn't project onto others" column.
I agree
As a POC, I find Hawkmom's views utterly reprehensible. The person who identified them as internalized racism was dead on. The views of an internalized racist are no more legit that those or a white racist and I think anti-racists or all racists should always call racism out -- even when it comes from a POC.
I am going to preface this by saying I am a white girl.
Growing up in a Tulsa suburb in Oklahoma, we had very few black students in kindergarten. I never had any in my classes.
In high school, there were a lot more black and asian students, and they were EXTREMELY clique-y, so I never really got to talk to any of them. I was also in all "advanced placement" programs...and there was one black guy in those classes with me. He was adopted and raised by white people. At our school, many times black people would complain that anything negative said about them was "racist"...for example, in gym class once, the teacher got onto some guy for not dressing out for the second week in a row (we ALL had to dress out for a grade) and he told her she was just mentioning him because he was black.
Once, while trying to get around a crowd of black people (since their clique liked to hang out in the hallway where people had to, you know, walk through), I accidentally brushed a girl. She turned around and screamed at me at the top of her lungs, "SAY EXCUSE ME, WHITE GIRL! I'MMA COME BEAT YOUR ASS..." I just walked away. I did say "excuse me" but apparently not loudly enough.
Hopefully I've given you enough background to explain this next paragraph.
Now, when I talk to black people, I am so afraid that anything I say will be mistaken as racism or that they will tell me I'm an insensitive white girl. That is honestly MY reason for the "porcelain doll" syndrome that HawksMom describes.
I have met very few black people that didn't act "ghetto" or "gangsta", and they were all good people as far as I could tell. Don't get me wrong, I have met tons of whites and asians who are "ghetto" or "gangster" as well and I avoid them all, for they are usually always trouble (even if they are nice people...nice =/= good). It's why I can understand the club dress codes...IF they were simply dress codes. I do believe that it's sometimes, or most times, a thinly-veiled attempt at keeping blacks out, however.
Nearly all the people I have met (white, asian, black) who dress in such a fashion (oversized clothing, sideways hats, SAGGING [I hate this so much, i have no idea why it's popular]) have been trouble of some sort or another, but that's just my experience.
Of course, there are exceptions, such as an asian guy I knew who dressed in the whole shebang--huge baggy pants, huge shirts, a grill, sideways hat--he was a cool guy and didn't seem to get into much trouble. So I know it is definitely trendy and some people dress like this for this reason.
I am also not saying that people who dress "straight-edge" or as you all are calling it, "yuppie (?? never heard this, haha)", gothic, emo, or what-have-you, are all good people, that is definitely not the case.
Hope it was helpful in trying to understand my point of view.
tldr; I avoid people who look/dress/act gangster because it scares me.
Yay for WashU kids!!!!! As a St. Louis native, that makes me really happy!
As a young black male i have experienced this type of thing a lot. They say the dress code is to keep out a certain element but no one knows who's gonna do what until they get ready to do it.I'm all for not wearing sports attire and baggy jeans,jerseys,fitted caps etc at a high end restaurant but i shouldnt be turned away from a nightclub for wearing the same thing.
Thanks all of you "enlightened" people for telling me what's in my own head. This can be a productive conversation if some of you weren't so defensive. Everything isn't personal. Jeebus forbid I have different opinions and different experiences. Burn me at the fucking stake, why don't you.
In high school, there were a lot more black and asian students, and they were EXTREMELY clique-y, so I never really got to talk to any of them. I was also in all "advanced placement" programs...and there was one black guy in those classes with me. He was adopted and raised by white people. At our school, many times black people would complain that anything negative said about them was "racist"...for example, in gym class once, the teacher got onto some guy for not dressing out for the second week in a row (we ALL had to dress out for a grade) and he told her she was just mentioning him because he was black.
You sound a lot like the white people I went to school with. Your assumption is the black kids wouldn't hang out with you, but did you make an effort to hang out with them? Or were you too scared they would do something to you?
I was the black girl in my advanced placement classes, but I know a few times in elementary school if I was making a low B in a class, I was considered for the "slow" math classes, if my mother wasn't a teacher in another district and fully aware of how many POCs, in particular black boys are pigeon holed into special education or slow classes while white students who have the same grades are assumed to be "normal", I might have been screwed. I know the perception is that blacks are slower, but the truth is we are given less opportunity even in the same schools with white kids. Look at these prominent examples here and here. The kids I was making better grades than were the ones telling me I got into advanced placement classes and then into college because of affirmative action and I was taking the place of a more deserving (read white) person, even though my test scores and grades were higher than the average white person in my school.
I also found it odd you felt the black student was playing the race card, and he very well could be, but because that kid did it, it was considered the norm of all the black students in your school.
Now, when I talk to black people, I am so afraid that anything I say will be mistaken as racism or that they will tell me I'm an insensitive white girl.
You sound that way. Your take your limited experience with black people and apply it to the whole. I should I take my experiences with white people, and make that the norm of all white people?
I have met very few black people that didn't act "ghetto" or "gangsta", and they were all good people as far as I could tell.
I'm glad you got to meet some magical negroes who don't fall into the stereotypes ::sarcasm::
>"Tsk, tsk" is not the way to make a difference.
I’m a little ‘confused’ with Hawkmom’s line of argument(s). When you say you don’t like hanging out at black establishments, I can understand where you’re coming from given your experience with people’s reaction to your interracial marriage. But I reread your comments and this is what I hear you saying: ‘I have experienced awful racism first hand. But I decided to take the chip off my shoulders. Now things are positive for me. And if racism exists, well, that’s because black people do stupid things to perpetuate racism. So if there is racism, it’s because black people are at fault.’
>For example, if you know your patrons tend to be racist, you wouldn't want someone coming in and getting them all riled up.
What I hear you saying is this: If someone is racist and you know they don’t like black people, then you don’t want black people coming in lest these racist people say or do something racist and upset the black patrons. Because then the racist people will get upset too. And we should avoid making racist people upset, even if that means rejecting black people based on their race (i.e. being racist).
>No matter how we are as individuals, black people are going to be judged according to what gets seen the most on the news and walking down the street. That's how these stereotypes are born - not out of thin air.
And therefore, instead of blaming those who are racist for the racism that we experience, we should blame people who do stupid stuff and *incidentally* look similar to us? But stereotyping *is* racism. If we cannot look past the stereotypes which exist and judge an individual as an individual, then we are practicing racism. And as long as we do not address our racially prejudiced views, then the people we are prejudiced against can ‘clean up their act’ and do all they can to change, but we will *always* find new things to stereotype them with to feed our prejudice. The existing racial stereotypes are not the problem. Prejudice is the problem.
>Still no one wants to acknowledge the black-owned estrablishments that enforce the same dress codes?
But they do not then use that as an excuse to keep black people out simply for being black, which is what the WashU students and DC TERP’s friends experienced.
And now to my own reaction to the post. I don’t live in the US and was surprised that this (black men denied entry to clubs/bars due to racism) happens there. Yes, please do call me naïve if you want. It's good that I am now aware of it.
Also, I didn’t know there really was a stereotype that associated that kind of fashion with gangsterism. But it reminds me how I was working at a school in Asia and they had a ‘Dress up as gangster day’ for the school spirit week. I expected the kids to dress up mafia style like Al Pacino. Instead, they showed up in jerseys, chains, baggy pants, and caps to the side. The only other times I’ve ever seen this kind of outfit is also when harmless kids tried to act ‘cool’ like the hip hop guys on MTV, but I did not associate it with actual gangsterism. I’ve also seen wannabe-cool-but-not-actually-gangster upper-class kids dress like this in Hollywood movies. It was simply fashion in my mind. So, either I was naïve about actual gangsters/troublemakers (and how they dress), or it is just a type of fashion that has been stereotyped. (Note: I don’t actually know the answer.)
Years ago while working as a doorman/bouncer in a Virginia bar in the middle of redneckville I had to remove the grandson of Jack Kent Cook because he was unable to refrain from being an ass when came into the bar. He told me I was only throwing him out because he brought a black man in with him. I politely informed him that the other gentleman could was more than welcome to stay as long as he wished but he had to leave immediately. The look on the other mans face was a slight smile telling me that he fully understood who the racist was in this situation. Something you learn working in bars is dangerous people don't always give clues by how they dress or their hairstyle. I've worked in Biker bars and redneck bars and the only restrictions I enforce were no visible weapons and no drunks or attitudes prior to entry. The other rules were feeble attempts by the uninformed to judge a person by how they dressed, patrons should be judged by how they behave in public not by stereotypes. Just my 2 cents, and yes I have witnessed shootings, and death in and outside of bars. The color of the individual, how they looked, or how they dressed didn't seem to determine their willingness to escalate violence. I have lived in the South most of my life and yes I have seen racism, I know it exists, but I do not contribute to it as I beleive it is learned behavior. I saw even more of it in states like Ohio. It is not state specific, it still exists everywhere in the US. No children are born to hate others they are taught to hate others. If their fellow students were denied ( I like to play devils advocate too) entry, all of the other students should have left the establishment, there's nothing quite like an empty bar to get the owners attention on a bad policy.
fromthetropics said....
"But I reread your comments and this is what I hear you saying: ‘I have experienced awful racism first hand. But I decided to take the chip off my shoulders. Now things are positive for me. And if racism exists, well, that’s because black people do stupid things to perpetuate racism. So if there is racism, it’s because black people are at fault.’"
Funny, because that's not how I read HawkMom's comments. I read it as thus: "I have experienced aweful racism first hand. Our society isn't perfect, but I decided to take the chip off my shoulders. Sometimes being a positive example is the best way to build bridges."
Waiting for the hoardes of commenters to come in being all "what do you mean this is racist?! People can choose not to dress this way!". :P
This is rather common in NYC. Not many places are this blatant about their policies though; most places just have the bouncers make up bullshit excuses about why some people can't come in.
>I have met very few black people that didn't act "ghetto" or "gangsta", and they were all good people as far as I could tell.
That's interesting. I have met very few black people because I live in a region outside North America where they are small in number. But NONE of the black people I've met or seen (in malls, churches, schools, streets) are like that (ghetto/gangster). Some are from various parts of Africa, others are from North America, UK, or the Caribbean. All of them have been college graduates or looked educated and middle class. (And none of them speak loudly either.)
Hence, some of the black stereotype stuff I read here (e.g. black = criminal) surprise me and are new to me. To the point that while some come here saying, 'But the stereotypes are true! Blacks are like that,' sometimes I think I should stop reading race blogs lest I absorb all these stereotypes by accident.
I suppose stereotypes depend on which people you meet and which characteristics you choose to look at. (Ironically, the only people I've met who claim to speak 'ghetto' are some of the Asian teenagers who think the MTV stuff is cool. i.e. Black = Cool, which I suppose is a form of exoticization?)
Hawkmom, why you wanna dis your own people?
The dress code always strikes me as funny because it really discriminates against paying customers. The truth is a real "gangsta" a guy who is going to jack your car or bust a cap in your ass is not standing in line to pay $20 to go into a club. And he probably can't afford the expensive deliberately sagging jeans these students were excluded for. So to my mind of course it's about race. And I do find HawkMom's comments a bit distracting from that major point. If a black club is discriminating paying patrons based on their attire I'll call it classism and since I live in the southeast a little self hate mixed in for good measure. If a white club is discriminating paying patrons based on their attire I'll call it racism with a bit of classism mixed in.
But the best way to combat that sort of thing imho is to stop trying to pay someone to discriminate against you. I am not changing my look to spend money in someone's club. If you want my money you will accept it however I am dressed, end of story.
But the other thing in the post the self segregation, the very real lines I see here in Charlotte, NC of the black person only has one white friend, and the white person has never had a black person in their home less say call one a friend is another issue entirely. If we extended outside of our comfort zones you would find a group of people of different races going to the club. I think a group of people of different ethnic backgrounds showing up to an establishment again and again and refusing to spend their money if everyone in their group wasn't allowed in would end the dress code practices or the club would go out of business.
>Sometimes being a positive example is the best way to build bridges.
Okay. I'm genuinely open to this interpretation. That is why I reread her comments, to see how she was doing this. But I couldn't find it. If you can find it, can you please show me? Because I hear her saying she avoids black establishments, prefers to be in the company of white people, justifies stereotyping, and everything else I've detailed in my comment above (October 26, 2009 6:35 AM).
And 'married to a white person' or having a 'biracial child' doesn't count as 'bridges'. I've met plenty of people in interracial marriages/relationships who are still racially prejudiced, or even worse (though I don't think this applies to HawkMom), who are in those relationships *precisely* because they are racist (e.g. they like the power imbalance in the relationship).
Not to detract from the very real issues put forth by everyone, but I think we could all use this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yCv-V6tIPU
It's actually shocking that the ND bar was so blatantly targeting "urban" apparel, particularly in their exclusion of specific brands. So if you have on a collared South Pole shirt without any labels on it, you can't enter?
I attend University of Michigan and we have one, pretty much exclusively black club. They too have restrictions on dress code for males such as no baggy pants, t-shirts, sneakers, or hats. So that's less race-based and more attributed to the atmosphere.
I'm interested in knowing if any club dictate urban FEMALE dress - and how would they define that?
HawkMom,
I just want to comment on one part of what you said because it hit home for me.
“My 20-year-old cousin was murdered two years ago while standing outside of a nightclub (in Chicago!). A white guy was driving by and yelled out "N-word!" and shot him. The guy was a young Iraq war vet who had just come back.”
A few years back my nephew (Eric) was murdered in a failed carjacking by a 16-year POC. There is no doubt this kid is as cold-blooded of a killer as they come. Ten minutes after murdering my nephew he robbed someone else of their car with the same gun. After he was picked up a month later, he showed no remorse for the murder. In fact he was a little proud of himself for murdering him in one shot.
It would be easy to hate this kid, more so probably because he is black and I am white. And when you look into his eyes you can see the emptiness they hold. He is part of the lost generation. He has no morals or soul to speak of. Then you hear his story and see why.
He never knew his father, who felt no responsibility to care for him after he was born. His mother was too busy with her own social life to worry about his upkeep. In fact at the hearing she was more worried about how she looked for the newspapers and TV than the fact her son was on trial for murder. The only one who cared for this kid was a feeble, elderly grandmother who had no clue as to what her grandson was really up too. It made me wonder, how would he had turned out if he had parents in his life who gave a damn? Would he be here today? And how would I have turned out if I had been in his shoes? In some ways I can relate based on my own life experiences, but not enough to make that connection.
I grieved for a couple of months, more so for his parents who had lost a second son. My son and I worked on a memorial for Eric on our train layout, which we take too shows a couple of times a year. It helped with his murder, but I never could forget the kid’s eyes who took my nephews life.
I’ve seen racism first hand. I’ve been a victim of it several times. I’m also ashamed to say I have also inflicted it before I took up Martin Luther King’s idea that all men (people) are created equal. Knowing what hate can do; I refuse to give into it. Instead I prayed for my nephew murderer. He will get out of jail sometime before he turns 40, and I hope to God he will live a better life. I hope he will regret what he’s done and try to do something better than robbing people. My black co-worker (who also shares a similar story) told me it’s a waste time to think he will change, but I know people can. I did.
As for your cousin, Hawkmom, I know what you’re going through. Murder becomes a very personal and painful event which takes years to get over. It’s easy to get mad, and hate, and even look at things in a very negative way. And I’m sure it would be easy to accept the argument that white people have been killing black people for generations and something should be done. Believe me, I understand that argument all too well. The truth is we’ve been killing each other since the beginning of time and we need to find a way to stop. I only wish until then I could take this pain away that you must be feeling – then maybe you could take away mine.
I know some will accuse me of posting the “Arab trader argument” in an attempt to throw this blog off topic. My reply is it’s what one “privileged white man” thinks about the murder of POC human being by white individual. If you find that argument weak well, we all have an opinion I suppose. But I would rather focus on how we can stop the hate in addition to just pointing it out. I think that’s one of the things lacking in these conversations. As the song goes, “We’ve found the cause but cannot find the cure”.
Hi Macon D., I've just started reading the blog and I'm overall really humbled and helped by what you write and I think that, among other things, you're providing a terrific service to white people who want to think about their own racism.
I have to say, however, that this particular post is a bit of a misstep. Your questions at the end are particularly pitiful. I would not hang out at a bar with a dress code that keeps out people of color. I would join in a protest against such a bar. I also wouldn't join the KKK or move to a county with a law against black people (which still exists in my state). I don't deserve a big gold diversity star for any of these actions.
My local neighborhood bar doesn't have any sort of dress code but I can't remember when was the last time I saw a person of color there...I'm trying to remember if I'm overlooking something obvious...nope. (I didn't move out to the suburbs, either. I specifically attempted to stay "intown.") And, had I moved into one of the fashionable, but far more expensive, gentrified neighborhoods, I can tell you that my local bar still wouldn't be diverse, because I go to those bars. I frankly and sadly can't remember the last time I went into an establishment I would call "diverse." Shame on me!
In addition, since I graduated from college, my group of friends has become progressively more homogenously the same as me. I have a baby on the way. If nothing else, how do I demonstrate to him that I don't endorse hanging out exclusively with white people? On the other hand, I'm not about to think it's okay to walk up to the first person of color I see and attempt to establish a friendship in an attempt to diversify my friend circle.
What are my options!?! How does a person approach this problem without tokenizing black establishments/coworkers/neighbors? I should select my job and neighborhood based on its diversity quotient, as well as my future children's schools, etc, right? Is that what you've done? Is that what the rest of you who make a serious effort to alleviate racism in your lives are doing?
I am a white woman living in San Diego, and there is a lot of de facto segregation as in "National City is where black people live" and "La Jolla is where rich white people live." When I first moved to SD, a white Marine told me not to venture into National City, that it was dangerous for whites.
I go to National City all the time, and although I am usually the only white person in the vicinity, I've never felt unsafe. I read reviews on Yelp for restaurants in my neighborhood, Barrio Logan, and white people love to go on and on about how they risked life and limb for a taco. Um, I live there, and it's completely safe. It's also clean, quiet, and neighborly.
Fear segregates. White people have convinced themselves that Barrio Logan and National City are dangerous, so they stick to pricey hipster areas like North Park, University Heights, and Hillcrest, which pretty much guarantees that they'll be surrounded only by other white people.
I've never seen signs like the ones featured in this post (San Diego bars and restaurants tend to fret about shoes and shirts) and if I did I wouldn't tolerate it. Not only would I not give them my business, I'd let them know why I wasn't.
fromthetropics said...
"Okay. I'm genuinely open to this interpretation. That is why I reread her comments, to see how she was doing this. But I couldn't find it. If you can find it, can you please show me?
I believe it's her third post where she says the following:
"grew up in a middle-class, nuclear family in the suburbs. Where I'm from, most black people are poor or uneducated (for the record, neither of my parents have a college degree, just hardworking). I would go places and have people either look through me or talk down to me. It's frustrating, but what am I supposed to do? Sanction every person who offends me? I'm too busy living. Honestly, I've found that you can affect change much more by just being a positive example."
"Because I hear her saying she avoids black establishments, prefers to be in the company of white people, justifies stereotyping, and everything else I've detailed in my comment above (October 26, 2009 6:35 AM)."
What I hear her saying is that her experience in black company have been not-so-good. Her experiences in white company have been better (or at least tolerable).
I think it's funny that white people are not supposed to question a PoC's negative experiences with certain white people, however, when a HawkMom tells us of her negative experiences with other people of color it's like everyone feels like it's perfectly fine to tell her that she's misguided and wrong. How is that okay?
If she feels comfortable at a Honky Tonk, then she feels comfortable there. That's her experience.
Did she say that she understood why bar owners could sterotype people who dress in saggy jeans, chains, and jerseys as possible troublemakers? Yep. I'm not denying it. She did. She also said this:
"I'm not saying it's right to discriminate, but it's not completely unfounded."
These are the mixed messages I'm getting:
Black people don't all think alike, but I'm getting reamed for my views and having my ethnicity and "loyalty" questioned because I'm not saying what I'm supposed to be saying as a black woman?
All black people don't behave the same, and to judge the majority for what a minority do is racist and unfair. However, Siditty seems to think that it's justified for her to judge what white people at a honkytonk are all about. Apparently, since she predetermined that she wouldn't be welcome or comfortable in a place like that in her area, she has made the determination that *I* wouldn't in *mine*. This is unbelievable hypocrisy. Her past experiences have taught her to avoid certain places like that, and mine have taught me to avoid certain place like hip-hop clubs. For some reason, it's only close-minded and unfair when *I* make decisions based on MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.
And I'm really annoyed that people are defending dress codes at black clubs. So it's okay for black people to discriminate against our own based on outer appearances, but no one else can? Please. A black MENSA member and Harvard grad could easily prefer wearing skull caps and baggy athletic gear, but as along as he's dressed that way, he won't be accepted in those "upscale black clubs" that advertise as such with dress codes or any "white" club that has the same policy. There are certain behaviors and a certain lifestyle that is associated with dressing that way, and if you choose to ignore that, suit yourself. However, don't make me out to be some self-hating villain because I prefer to be logical instead of emotional about the topic. If you were the bouncer at a hip-hop club and a group of rednecks with camo and Confederate flag attire wanted entry, would you just let them in without blinking or would you think they might be wanting to cause trouble? I would not fault a bouncer or club owner for being hesitant. They want to maintain the peace in their establishment and having obvious rednecks (which is unfairly linked to racism, by the way) may cause a stir with some of their patrons.
Trying to get in the minds of every bouncer or club owner with "Well, they probably just don't want any black people in" is unfair. Sometimes it's not personal. Not to say that it NEVER is, but sometimes it's just not. When you go around looking for reasons to be outraged or offended, you will find them.
And, OldEnough, thank you for sharing your story. That incident didn't change my perception of white people. I don't take the actions of one person to paint an entire group. I do think there's something to said about these young, white, male veterans, though. My generation was barely old enough to keep up with Desert Storm, and now many of us are in this intense conflict with our lives on the line. The reason I singled out young white males is because theirs just might be the first generation to see the cultural paradigm shift. (Half) black president, growing number of immigrants and interracial relationships, DADT is being tossed aside, women are serving in greater numbers. It's not the same as it used to be and many of them (I've seen just in my husband's unit) are bitter about that. They're angry and frustrated because they want things to go back to the way it was when their fathers and grandfathers served. I think the soldier who murdered my cousin had reached some kind of tipping point. What worries me is that there are so many more out there like ticking time bombs. That's another thing, these guys haven't been able to handle war as well, either.
*Not trying to group all young, white males in, as my husband doesn't hold those views, but it's still a demographic that is becoming more and more vocal about being squeezed out.
Hawkmom,
You wrote: "And I'm really annoyed that people are defending dress codes at black clubs. So it's okay for black people to discriminate against our own based on outer appearances, but no one else can? Please."
I don't hear anyone defending this practice; I just hear people making a distinction. That is, when black clubs do it, it seems primarily classist (although possibly with a bit of self-directed racism thrown in) BUT when white clubs to it, it seems primarily racist (although probably with a bit of classism thrown in). I think the verdict is that the practice is equally bad in both places, but for different reasons.
Black people don't all think alike, but I'm getting reamed for my views and having my ethnicity and "loyalty" questioned because I'm not saying what I'm supposed to be saying as a black woman?
You're getting reamed because you go to black blogs and anti-racist blogs spouting the same "black people suck ass, except me" diatribe over and over again. There is a difference between expressing your experiences and denigrating a whole race of people, of which you yourself are included.
You turned a conversation about dress codes at a bar or club into, "I don't like to be around black people and they scare me" Why do you do that, because like I told you many times before, I think you are a troll.
It is sickening that you have the nerve to have a pic of a woman wearing my alma mater.
Makes me not want to tell people I went there.
I also find it odd that you as a black person are not aware that there are other types of clubs black people frequent besides hip hop clubs.
Also note, I made no distinction about all honky tonks, just the one I mentioned. I don't partake in honky tonks because I can't stand most country music, I have been to a club that plays county music, and I was not uncomfortable there, I just didn't like it. I just find being scared of a hip hop club, but not being scared of a club where the demographic of patrons enjoy confederate flags, redneck culture, and concealed weapons (I live in Texas), doesn't seem all that much different to me than a club full of black people dancing to hip hop and some of those people carrying guns or knives. I guess danger=black.
@Julia
"I think the verdict is that the practice is equally bad in both places, but for different reasons."
I agree. However, nobody here has been willing to say it is wrong when black clubs do it. It's like a forbidden thing to acknowledge that black people can be wrong at all.
@Siditty
You're just an angry person who looks for reasons to be angry. No matter what I say, you try to read between the lines and look for my intent. You can't read my mind, and I don't know what makes you think you can. You're arrogant, close-minded, and disrespectful. Completely incapable of having a mature, rational discussion about a serious topic without resorting to sarcasm, personal attacks, and wild accusations. The scary part is, you think you're so enlightened, so much better than me and my views; views based on *my* life experience, which you've insulted, questioned, and invalidated. I may completely disagree with you, but not once have I told you that your views were wrong. I've made it very clear, time and time again, that my personal experiences have shaped my opinions. Nothing I've said here (or on your blog) was intended to upset anyone or directly insult. However, you've made it very clear that you have a personal problem with me and have gone out of your way to be demeaning and rude. If that's your way of disproving a negative stereotype, my dear, you have failed.
Also, if my wearing a shirt upsets you that much, then perhaps you have deeper issues than race.
"I just find being scared of a hip hop club, but not being scared of a club where the demographic of patrons enjoy confederate flags, redneck culture, and concealed weapons (I live in Texas), doesn't seem all that much different to me than a club full of black people dancing to hip hop and some of those people carrying guns or knives. I guess danger=black."
Instead of lashing out at me for simply living, you may need to take up any issues you have with club owners. I tend to avoid places that require its patrons to pass through metal detectors. Outside of a government building, I think it says a lot about a private venue (and what it thinks of its patrons) to search for weapons at the door.
Sid said: There is a difference between expressing your experiences and denigrating a whole race of people, of which you yourself are included.
I have to agree with this.
@Kat
"Sid said: There is a difference between expressing your experiences and denigrating a whole race of people, of which you yourself are included.
I have to agree with this."
I agree with this, as well. One problem, though: I never denigrated an entire race of people. On a unrelated topic on a different blog many weeks ago, I listed some aspects of American black culture that most of us share. I made it very clear that they didn't apply to ALL black people, but most blacks share a common thread on things like child-rearing, religion, and political views. It caused a shitstorm over there, so I said I would stop commenting. Siditty has brought her leftover anger and outrage to this blog. It's unnecessary and extremely immature.
Props to Macon for being a mature moderator, though, I have yet to see him attack anyone.
Um, thanks Hawkmom, I guess. Nevertheless, this seems as good a time as any to ask, can we stop with this tangent now? I think enough has been said about whatever that disagreement on other blog(s?) was. And about whoever Hawkmom is, and whether she's devoted enough to her own people. Let's get back to the topic at hand, please (current modes of de facto segregation, if I remember right), if there's anymore to say about it.
HawkMom said...
"On a unrelated topic on a different blog many weeks ago, I listed some aspects of American black culture that most of us share. "
Now it's making sense. I was beginning to wonder where the ridiculous blog troll accusations were coming from. You never appeared like a troll to me whatsoever.
@HawkMom
I'm black of Caribbean Descent so I'm just sensitive when people think "black" equals "so and so". That's all I'm saying.
@Macon
Back to the topic... I don't there is anything wrong with dress codes in general but it should be applied equally to everyone. Of course, that doesn't always happen and should definitely be called out on it if there is a double standard.
Hmmmm...reminds me of those old "Honky Tonk" bars, where the motto was, "Ain't no blues played 'round here!"
Thanks for pointing this out. I was in a redneck-y bar a couple weeks ago to see a friend's show, and saw a sign just like these. It just registered to me as really restrictive. Though I noticed the people in the place were nearly all white with a couple light-skinned Latinos, despite being in a city that's well over 50% black (New Orleans), I hadn't caught on to the sign's intent. Segregation is really common here, but it's usually more assumed - I've rarely seen it laid out so clearly. But yet, this was Gretna after all - the town best known for the sheriffs who shot black refugees trying to flee the city post-Katrina -- so I shouldn't be too surprised.
@Kat
"I'm black of Caribbean Descent so I'm just sensitive when people think "black" equals "so and so". That's all I'm saying."
I know exactly what you mean, and I that bothers me, too. I had a girl friend from Trinidad who complained about that very thing.
I've never actually seen a nightclub, bar or restaurant where there was discrimination by way of dress code before. I'm not sure if it's because I don't read signs very often, or if I don't get out all that much. Either way, I'm going to be looking for it. And I'm likely going to be calling people on their shit when I see it...depends on how much bigger they are than I am. I think that's a shitty way to be to people and I wouldn't want to mistakenly be sitting in a place where they're closet racist, openly discriminatory assholes.
macon - thanks for this. i knew about the whole "no baggy pants" deal as a code for "no blacks allowed" but these signs didn't seem to think baggy pants was sufficient. disgusting.
Simply put, if certain people don't accept decency in the form of dress or attire, then impose in on them. This is a private business, so they should have the right to impose civilization on the uncivilized. Period. The cultural Marxists on this site are hopelessly naive and have developed little beyond the elementary school yard. You have no right to NOT be offended. What a weak nation the left has created.
Ok I read this post and I am from a compleatly different state. I live in MPLS mn. I am a younger white woman and have grown up in the urban area my whole life. In my nieghborhood I am the minority. Everyone (the guys) wears baggy jeans & sports attire. Even the black owned bars and clubs however have a dress code. If you are going out to have a good time yes I belive that you should respect yourself and others to dress for a night out. These rules do not only apply to blacks, but to hispanics, whites, asians, natives ECT. Everyone in my area dresses the same. Its not about color, if your going out...dress up, we all know better....& I am in no way, shape or form racist. I have friends and family from all cultures and walks of life. I think its more of a generation change than a race issue...Just my opinian
This is 100% classism not racism with the dress codes. In Atlantic City the club owned by Jay-Z does not allow any of the same clothing plus more that both of those bars. Also most bars and clubs in AC do that because it looks dumb and is not a proper way to dress when in a classy establishment. The owner not letting the kids in is bullshit and racist though. As a white dude I think that is disgraceful and that club should have been emptied of all students at that moment.
This is 100% classism not racism with the dress codes.
You know what? I'm sick of hearing stuff like this.
When IS it racism? When DOES race have something to do with it? Who gets to say that? Why?
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